Bonds Suc&k...

No, you ARE changing the question because you made an erroneous postulation and were proven wrong with facts. So rather then say something like... ah, I didn't know that... you changed the question.

You said "Please list the “ many decade + periods” where stocks have lost money." I provided some information that there were indeed numerous decades where stock total returns have been negative and others decades where stocks total retuns have been low. It doesn't matter whether it was L shaped or not or whether you include just the S&P or all stocks since the result will be the same.

I don't see anywhere that anyone was making investment decisions based on fear... it was just an observation that happens to be a factual observation.
If you have evidence that anyone was suggesting not investing in stocks today because there have been some decades of negative or flat stock returns then put up the quotes. There was an observation made and you posted a rant that was off-base... it's just that simple.


Why are you getting so hostile?
But to answer your questions you listed SIX 10 year time frames out of 88 that S and P was down....that's 7% of the time ..its not "numerous" if you want to get technical....


and the original comment was definitely suggestive that being in bonds was their preferred asset class as opposed to stocks based on fear of a bad run....you yourself have been adamantly against stocks and that's why you are under invested in them. So my "evidence" is right in your mirror!


And when did I post a "rant"?!?!
Every post on this thread by me was like one or two sentences with the main message of I have no interest in bonds, I'm a stock guy and always will be. That somehow seems to offend you :LOL:
 
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I guess we'll need to agree to disagree on whether 7% of the time is numerous or not. 7% is certainly not rare.

Care to provide that original comment suggesting to avoid stocks based on fear of a bad run? I searched for it and could not find it.

While you're at it, where have I been adamantly against stocks? Provide a post. And I'm "underinvested" in them only in your opinion since you prefer stocks... my retirement is so well funded that I don't really need stocks so I could have no stocks and wouldn't be underinvested in them.

If someone (not me BTW) had a 2% WR and wanted to be 100% bonds would you consider them to be underinvested in stocks? In that situation 0/100 or 100/0 both work a-ok and I have posted so numerous times.

I'm just not keen on stock valuations so was out for a while and currently have very little stocks for now but may add some in the near future. I guess it also depends on who you ask... Schwab shows my preferred stocks on my dashboard as equities so under their definition I have a lot of stock.

This seems a bit ranty to me but we can agree to disagree on that too.
I see comments like this and I just shake my head.
Please list the “ many decade + periods” where stocks have lost money.

Just because you have no interest in bonds doesn't mean that bonds suck just like because I have no current interest in stocks doesn't mean that stocks suck. If someone wants to be 100% stocks, why would I be offended? I could give a care and that you are 100% stocks doesn't offend me one iota.
 
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MODERATOR NOTE: How about everyone tone down the combative language? We're here to help each other and learn new things, not to fight with each other. Thank you.
 
OP here.

I'm sorry I brought up the topic in a sarcastic manner.

With my hat in my hand I'd ask we all move on. We help each other here and I wasn't helpful.
 
I guess we'll need to agree to disagree on whether 7% of the time is numerous or not. 7% is certainly not rare.

Care to provide that original comment suggesting to avoid stocks based on fear of a bad run? I searched for it and could not find it.

While you're at it, where have I been adamantly against stocks? Provide a post. And I'm "underinvested" in them only in your opinion since you prefer stocks... my retirement is so well funded that I don't really need stocks so I could have no stocks and wouldn't be underinvested in them.

If someone (not me BTW) had a 2% WR and wanted to be 100% bonds would you consider them to be underinvested in stocks? In that situation 0/100 or 100/0 both work a-ok.

I'm just not keen on stock valuations so was out for a while and currently have very little stocks for now but may add some in the near future. I guess it also depends on who you ask... Schwab shows my preferred stocks on my dashboard as equities so under their definition I have a lot of stock.

This seems a bit ranty to me but we can agree to disagree on that too.


Just because you have no interest in bonds doesn't mean that bonds suck just like because I have no current interest in stocks doesn't mean that stocks suck. If someone wants to be 100% stocks, why would I be offended? I could give a care and that you are 100% stocks doesn't offend me one iota.


I have never and would never say something like "bonds suck". For me, bonds would be a way to mitigate volatility. I'm fine with volatility hence my heavy stock exposure.



Your position of 100% fixed income pretty much tells me you're against stocks. Be fair, you've posted numerous times over the last year or two about you not liking stocks because of valuations.



Yes, someone with zero stocks is "under invested" in them. That doesn't imply they "should" be in stocks, but they are under invested in them. Just like I have zero fixed income. I'm under invested in fixed income. Just like some portfolio managers are " under invested" in tech stocks. It's not a criticism, its just a portfolio choice.



And Schwab classifying preferred stock as stock is silly to me. it's fixed income, just my opinion.



The other point about people avoiding stocks for fear of a bad run. Whole different thread probably, but 2008 destroyed peoples psyche. Stocks are still a very very scary word to many people and the bottom line is that IF one wants or needs growth from their portfolio stocks are imperative. You obviously don't need them, but I personally know people in their 30s and 40s, who obviously have multi decade time frames, are still, I'll say it, way under invested in equities.
 
...Your position of 100% fixed income pretty much tells me you're against stocks. Be fair, you've posted numerous times over the last year or two about you not liking stocks because of valuations.

Yes, someone with zero stocks is "under invested" in them. That doesn't imply they "should" be in stocks, but they are under invested in them. Just like I have zero fixed income. I'm under invested in fixed income. Just like some portfolio managers are " under invested" in tech stocks. It's not a criticism, its just a portfolio choice.

And Schwab classifying preferred stock as stock is silly to me. it's fixed income, just my opinion.

The other point about people avoiding stocks for fear of a bad run. Whole different thread probably, but 2008 destroyed peoples psyche. Stocks are still a very very scary word to many people and the bottom line is that IF one wants or needs growth from their portfolio stocks are imperative. You obviously don't need them, but I personally know people in their 30s and 40s, who obviously have multi decade time frames, are still, I'll say it, way under invested in equities.

You're misreading my current mostly fixed income AA as being "against stocks". I'm not against stocks. Like I've said, I'm just not keen on stocks right now due to valuation concerns but I've left the door open to including stocks in my portfolio in the future if valuations become sensible in my opinion.

I agree that for people in their 30s and 40s that in most cases they need a significant component in stocks for success. I'm not aware of people of that age that are not or a significantly underinvested in stocks. I know my kids both have a high proportion of stocks in their portfolios.
 
Having a "bond" allocation allows me to buy equities when they go on sale, but I'm not at all likely to be forced to sell my equities at a low point to fund living expenses.

however , as i mentioned in another thread , the higher highs from 100% equities not having the drag of cash and bonds in up years has cushioned any spending down in bad times in practice..

it’s like those who hide out in money markets and just fixed income because they fear the drops of equities don’t realize even at the lows their balance would still be higher in the equities over time.

as far as a swr goes 100% equities has done almost the same as 50/50 as far as success rate .

HOWEVER it’s just to volatile for my taste in retirement and for most retirees.. so poor investor behavior is more inclined to hurt as volatility goes up as well as , as we get older the more likely we are to exhibit poor behavior at a bad time in retirement.

many now , including my self believe in the red zone theory .

that means our biggest danger points are about the 5 to 8 years leading up to retirement and the first 5 to 8 in retirement because our balances are highest and subject to the worst hits .

so a glide path reduces equities going in and then increases coming out of the red zone .

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The final decade leading up to retirement, and the first decade of retirement itself, form a retirement danger zone, where the size of ongoing contributions and the benefits of continuing to work are dwarfed by the returns of the portfolio itself. As a result of this “portfolio size effect”, the portfolio becomes almost entirely dependent on getting a favorable sequence of returns to carry through.

And because the consequences of a bear market can be so severe when the portfolio’s value is at its peak, it becomes necessary to dampen down the volatility of the portfolio to navigate the danger – a strategy commonly implemented by many lifecycle and target date funds, which use a decreasing equity glidepath that drifts equity exposure lower each year.

Yet the reality is that the retirement danger zone is still limited – after the first decade, good returns will have already carried the retiree past the point of danger, and bad returns at least mean that good returns are likely coming soon, as valuation normalizes and the market cycle takes over. Which means while it’s necessary to be conservative to defend against the portfolio size effect, it’s not necessary to reduce equity exposure indefinitely.

Instead, the optimal glidepath for asset allocation appears to be a V-shaped equity exposure, that starts out high in the early working years, gets lower as retirement approaches, and then rebuilds again through the first half of retirement. Or viewed another way, the prospective retiree builds a reserve of bonds in the final decade leading up to retirement, and then spends down that bond reserve in the early years of retirement itself (allowing equity exposure to return to normal).

Ultimately, further research is necessary to determine the exact ideal shape of this “bond tent” (named for the shape of the bond allocation as it rises leading up to retirement and then falls thereafter). But the point remains that perhaps the best way to manage sequence of return risk in the years leading up to retirement and thereafter is simply to build up and then use a reserve of bonds to weather the storm.

https://www.kitces.com/blog/managing-portfolio-size-effect-with-bond-tent-in-retirement-red-zone/
 
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I'm not against stocks. Like I've said, I'm just not keen on stocks right now due to valuation concerns but I've left the door open to including stocks in my portfolio in the future if valuations become sensible in my opinion.

Agree valuations are high. Shiller CAPE10 has only peaked higher than it currently is (33.63) twice since 1871 - 44.19 (Nov 1999) and 38.58 (Oct 2021). It also peaked at 31.48 in Jul 1929.

CAPE10 is somewhat correlated with long-term (>10 years) returns. I think that's in the latest version of Malkiel's book Random Walk.

I have a lot of sympathy for a strategy that shifts equity weighting with CAPE10. That said, I haven't found or developed one that I have more confidence in (for us) that 60/40 AA with annual rebalancing.

I agree that for people in their 30s and 40s that in most cases they need a significant component in stocks for success. I'm not aware of people of that age that are not or a significantly underinvested in stocks. I know my kids both have a high proportion of stocks in their portfolios.

IIRC correctly, the first time I ran across the concept that young savers and retirees have diametrically opposed interests in stock market performance was in the mid-2000s in Frank Armstrong's book The Informed Investor. I'll paraphrase from memory as I don't have access to the book right now. 'Young savers should get down on their knees and pray for a market crash. Retirees with no outside income should get down on their knees and pray for a bull market.' I also consider this the first time that I was exposed to the concept of SORR.
 
Once I fired my FA over a decade ago, we never held any bonds. I don't plan to hold any either. Most of my retirement income is dividends and real estate with reinvestment of a percentage of income every month. To be fair however, I have a large amount or cash value life insurance which I consider my "bond" portfolio. Although I have no idea what Northwestern Mutual life insurance actually invests in.
 
.... Although I have no idea what Northwestern Mutual life insurance actually invests in.

NML, like most life insurers, is predominately invested in fixed income... bonds, mortgage loans and policy loans. Common and preferred stocks and real estate investments are each less than 1% of total investments.
 

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When equities are 50% down, they effectively are on sale. Buy!

But what did you buy them with? If you're still w*rking and adding to the stash (as DW and I have been doing for the last 20+ years), fine. But once you're retired and not generating income, where does the money come from to buy the on sale equities? If your AA is 100/0, you can't.

Bonds dampen the portfolio's volatility (SORR) and provide the funds to buy equities when they are on sale.

+1
 
Did you need the bond money in 2008?

Following are S&P returns since. Avoiding 2008 was a good thing. I know others who were in accumulation years and got out of equities for too many years. I feel lucky I stayed in at 85% equity.

2023 26.29
2022 -18.11

Of course, my comments are hindsight.


I didn't realize that the thread was so active and I had had a question, but actually I used a lot of the bonds (and the bond returns) in 2008 and 2009 to rebalance back up to 60-63% stocks. Which is kind of the point of bonds and rebalancing, or at least that's the theory. Edit: I looked at Quicken and I lost 17.5% in 2008, which was a bit of a blow, but I guess sure looked better than the 38.5% the S&P dropped. The Net Worth graph also shows I was back to the former peak value by September 2009. Since we were looking at semi-retiring in 2015 or 2016, the bonds actually helped, particularly in not doing something stupid in response to the crash. Others on here are people of iron or don't need their portfolio money much, and power to all y'all.
 
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Agree valuations are high. Shiller CAPE10 has only peaked higher than it currently is (33.63) twice since 1871 - 44.19 (Nov 1999) and 38.58 (Oct 2021). It also peaked at 31.48 in Jul 1929.

CAPE10 is somewhat correlated with long-term (>10 years) returns. I think that's in the latest version of Malkiel's book Random Walk.

I have a lot of sympathy for a strategy that shifts equity weighting with CAPE10. That said, I haven't found or developed one that I have more confidence in (for us) that 60/40 AA with annual rebalancing.



IIRC correctly, the first time I ran across the concept that young savers and retirees have diametrically opposed interests in stock market performance was in the mid-2000s in Frank Armstrong's book The Informed Investor. I'll paraphrase from memory as I don't have access to the book right now. 'Young savers should get down on their knees and pray for a market crash. Retirees with no outside income should get down on their knees and pray for a bull market.' I also consider this the first time that I was exposed to the concept of SORR.

Not a huge fan of the Cape 10 concept. As a general concept, there appears to be some directional generic correlation to stock valuation.
However since it was developed in the 1990's, when has it really been an accurate indicator except on March 2009?
All other times, it has been above the mean/median.
 
How do you win?

Since I started investing at age 22 in 1987 I have been preached to include bonds as a part of my portfolio. Now at age 59 I am supposed to have about 40% of my money in bonds.

The 10 year rate of return for bonds is 1.61. SP 500 is 12.58.

So 40% of my portfolio is a boat anchor. I realize the SP 500 funds are more volatile. But not as risky over 5 or more years.

I think bond issuers are laughing at people who buy them. I knew a wealthy, wise old man tell me "If you like a business enough to buy their debt....you should buy their equity instead."

You buy a bond at a nice interest rate. Rates go down and they call in your bond. You buy a bond and rates go up and you're stuck with a lower performing fixed income instrument. Neither are FDIC insured and when a company declares bankruptcy does anyone know when a bond holder actually collected more than a stockholder? Down the drain is down the drain..... Bond or stock.

For those that need fixed income I'd recommend VG MM fund. 5% plus is pretty darn good.

I know many, many people who have gotten wealthy investing in stock equities and real estate. Not a one by investing in bonds.


My rant on bonds is over. I'll duck now.

What is the purpose of owning a bond? (At any percent.) It is to trade price risk for a stable rate of return. If you want to, you can dump all your bonds, go 100% stocks and over time, sometimes a long time, stocks will always outperform bonds.

But as you get older, your time on this earth could easily be less than a long downturn in the stock market. That's where bonds come in. If you buy a bond (and bond funds are a different animal altogether) you get the interest rate agreed over the term of the callable or non-callable bond's life, no matter what, unless the issuer goes bankrupt and then you are at the front of the line in bankruptcy. That's a lot more security than you will ever have from a stock.

If you really hate bonds, but still want to get some steady income, you might want to consider preferred stocks. They behave a lot like bonds, have a good return, and have some, but much less, price volatility compared to stocks. And they are ahead of common shares in a bankruptcy, but behind bonds.

Take a look at the fund PFFA, for example, and look at it as well as the various preferred stocks it holds. Would any of these meet your income needs? The yield on preferred stock is often very good relative to bonds.

And getting back to that old 60/40 mix, that old cookbook number should be tossed out the window. Think about *your particular needs* for growth and income and set a mix that you are comfortable with.

Good luck!
 
What is the purpose of owning a bond? (At any percent.) It is to trade price risk for a stable rate of return. If you want to, you can dump all your bonds, go 100% stocks and over time, sometimes a long time, stocks will always outperform bonds.

But as you get older, your time on this earth could easily be less than a long downturn in the stock market. That's where bonds come in. If you buy a bond (and bond funds are a different animal altogether) you get the interest rate agreed over the term of the callable or non-callable bond's life, no matter what, unless the issuer goes bankrupt and then you are at the front of the line in bankruptcy. That's a lot more security than you will ever have from a stock.

If you really hate bonds, but still want to get some steady income, you might want to consider preferred stocks. They behave a lot like bonds, have a good return, and have some, but much less, price volatility compared to stocks. And they are ahead of common shares in a bankruptcy, but behind bonds.

Take a look at the fund PFFA, for example, and look at it as well as the various preferred stocks it holds. Would any of these meet your income needs? The yield on preferred stock is often very good relative to bonds.

And getting back to that old 60/40 mix, that old cookbook number should be tossed out the window. Think about *your particular needs* for growth and income and set a mix that you are comfortable with.

Good luck!

even at 65 we have long term money we won’t eat with for two to 3 decades so that is still long term money .

usually extended down turns still leave one higher in equities with buffer balances then decades of cash and bonds ,

so extended downturns in stocks are really not the problem it’s made out to be .

not being 100% equities is more a mental thing then actually financial reasons
 
The good news is retracing is always faster then hitting those new highs so recoveries are usually quick
 
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Yes, I know SORR is real for most people who plan to deplete their portfolio, albeit residual values may vary from 0 to (starting value - 1). We, on the other hand, are planning for a "perpetual retirement" i.e. the inflation adjusted portfolio value should be same or more at the end of the retirement period. I think our SORR risk is very different than most people so we choose to maximize the overall returns of our portfolio. Asset allocation is very personal and no one size fits all.
 
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At age 46. I still have no bonds in my portfolio. I am not sure if I should have some in the future?

if you are still a long term investor it makes little sense to use bonds to mitigate temporary short term dips with less capable assets and permanently hurt long term growth.

unless you don’t have at least a decade left until you hit that proverbial red zone.

for those who will follow the red zone glide path here is a guide

i-GSqwmhG-S.jpg
 
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if you are still a long term investor it makes little sense to use bonds to mitigate temporary short term dips with less capable assets and permanently hurt long term growth.

unless you don’t have at least a decade left until you hit that proverbial red zone.

for those who will follow the red zone glide path here is a guide

i-GSqwmhG-S.jpg

I plan to retire at 59.5. Yes, LT.

Portfolio is all VTSAX.
 
There’s no reason to buy any bonds. I’ve been buying CD’s from banks and credit unions from the age of 15. They are simple to understand - deposit your money in a CD and your principal is returned when the CD matures. It’s very, very difficult to loose money - after a bank/credit union failure which has never happened to me. Keep your balance under $250,000 per bank/credit union and you are covered. Brokerage CD are similar but not exactly the same. If you buy call protected CD’s then you are guaranteed to get the full interest over the term. Interest is deposited into your base account, so you do not get compound interest. It’s more difficult to redeem your brokered CD early, the brokerages will help you sell the CD on the secondary market.
 

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