Cold Climate Heat Pump owners - your experience please

[walkinwood]

I'd like to hear from people who own cold-climate heat pumps.

What's your experience especially during this year's cold spells (lower than -5F).

What vendor / model do you have?

Do you feel it was a good investment?

etc.


The federal IRA rebates (to come soon) + the state & utility rebates are making these very attractive now. We need to replace our A/C, so this may be a good time to embrace this technology.

 

[38Chevy454]

I don't live in real cold, Cincinnati is not as cold as farther north. Heat pump primary with propane backup, plus A/C of course. I'm out in the country, so no natural gas. On your question, my system switches to propane at 25F. Not because it won't make heat, but because efficiency drops and the air temp out of the vents is just a little over set temperature. The warm air of the propane feels nicer. I can adjust the switching temp, my choice is 25F.

My house is a Goodman system, installed by builder. My detached garage has a mini split that also has heat pump and works good down lower temperatures. But i also have propane garage style heater for there.

 

[Piper20]

In 2018 we had a Carrier model 25VNA 4 ton variable speed Heat Pump installed. Speed varies 50 - 100%, 2-4 ton. At the time the most efficient Carrier made. The newer models vary 25-100%. Came from a 15 YO Trane which had a 2 and 4 ton compressors replaced multiple times under a 10 year extended warranty. The Carrier was 16K with a 10 year warranty. All copper Freon lines replaced and MERV 15 air filter. The manufacturers no longer have their own extended warranty and outsource to another firm.
18.0 SEER, 13.5 EER, and 12.5 HSPF
The Carrier so far has kept the 2400 sq ft house in SE PA at 72 down to zero outside temp without any auxiliary heating. Aux heaters, (3) 5KW heaters are set for -10. Vent temps are 92-100 even down to zero. The Trane it replaced started to struggle below 25. Vent temp was around 82.
AC works great also.
Summer temp set to 74 day 72 night. Winter 72 day 70 night.
The only issue with the scroll compressor is when the set point goes up 1 degree when outside temp is 15 or below they will I call it scream because the will spin up to 7,000 RPM. After set point is reached that goes away. It’s not that loud but you’ll notice it. They all make the same noise regardless of the manufacturer. Scroll’s are made by 2 companies IIRC.
Energy saving about $10 a month since both units were high efficiency. We use about 14500KW annually. All electric home. The Carrier is much more comfortable both winter and summer.

 

[Fermion]

Do they pay for themselves, if costing $16,000 and lasting 10 years where electricity is $0.09 kwh?

 

[Piper20]

Our electric is .16. A lot of the cost is comfort and hopefully it will last 20 years or longer.

 

[folivier]

I started this thread about cold climate mini splits last month, you might get a bit of info from it. Basically, speaking about mini splits, they have become more efficient and CLAIM to be efficient at providing heat down to -22ºF depending on manufacturer. Mitsubishi and Cooper&Hunter both claim -22ºF heating with others down to -13ºF.
But I haven't found anyone yet who is using one effectively. At my 9400' cabin the coldest this winter is -8ºF. I'm thinking of this summer adding 2 18k-24k minisplits for heating. Cooling is not needed.
Hopefully we can find someone who is using CCHP's and has good info.
https://www.early-retirement.org/fo...-at-high-elevation-and-cold-temps-117013.html

 

[Out of Steam]

I don't live in real cold, Cincinnati is not as cold as farther north. Heat pump primary with propane backup, plus A/C of course. I'm out in the country, so no natural gas. On your question, my system switches to propane at 25F. Not because it won't make heat, but because efficiency drops and the air temp out of the vents is just a little over set temperature. The warm air of the propane feels nicer. I can adjust the switching temp, my choice is 25F.

We live in a similar climate with a similar natural gas system, and my wife doesn't even like the switchover being at 40ºF.

The heat pump would probably be more comfortable with better insulation in the house, which is 50 years old. As a very long brick ranch, the real answer is probably separate systems for the two halves of the house.

 

[ncbill]

Do they pay for themselves, if costing $16,000 and lasting 10 years where electricity is $0.09 kwh?

Probably not for heating at current natural gas prices.

We pay roughly your same price for electricity & I had a heat pump installed when replacing a central A/C-only traditional split system given a spike in gas prices the previous winter.

However, I soon locked out the heat pump & just used the gas furnace for heat given the cheap cost of natural gas & my desire to save wear & tear on the compressor since we need that in our hot summers.

My 80% gas furnace is also a simpler device versus a heat pump...short of a cracked or clogged heat exchanger everything's repairable/replaceable at a reasonable cost most of which can be done DIY.

 

[Fermion]

Natural gas is rapidly becoming out of fashion in our state though.

 

[Montecfo]

We had a heat pump here in Northern VA for a number of years. Even though we do not have harsh winters, we were not fans of the heat pump just for keeping us warm economically.

We have insisted on natural gas before and since and never been unhappy.

 

[Katsmeow]

Not really super cold (North Texas) but we have some very cold weather since we got our heat pump. Got to single digits this winter. Basically, the heat pump can only heat so far without using auxiliary heat. That heat works fine but is expensive. I don't want to use natural gas so I'm fine with it. But we did have a large bill that month relative to other months.

 

[Andre1969]

I have a dual zone setup with two 3.5 ton heat pumps. They're both about 14 years old, and seem to be running well, although I know they're not going to last forever. The upstairs unit is all electric, but the downstairs has an oil backup. The oil kicks on when temps drop below 40 degrees.

I've thought about looking into seeing if I could adjust it so the oil could kick on at a lower temp, to save on oil usage. But I only use about 200 gallons per year, if that. I don't think home heating oil goes bad as quickly as gasoline, but I figure the less I use, the longer it sits around and has a chance to go stale, so I figure I'm at a happy medium for that.

As for comfort, the downstairs unit always seems to blow nice and warm, although it definitely feels warmer when it's using oil. The upstairs unit, even though it has no trouble keeping whatever temperature I set it at, still seems to have a chill about it.

I'm in Maryland, not far from Annapolis, and our winters don't get TOO cold for the most part. I think the worst it's been in the 4 1/2 years I've been in this house is maybe 5-6 degrees. I've always lived in this area, although my old house was about 10 miles west, just enough to make a difference. I'm somewhat close to the Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries at the current place, and I think that might keep the averages just a bit warmer in the winter At the old place, temps would get to just below zero F, every once in awhile, but I can't remember the last time. Maybe a couple times, in the past 20 years? I do remember a serious cold snap back in early 1994, where lows were regularly minus 12-13...but that was one for the record books! Back then, I was living at my Grandmom's house, and the circa 1959 oil boiler with baseboard heat kept that house nice and toasty.

 

[mpeirce]

We’re similar to Andre1969 in that we have a heat pump system downstairs with propane back up that comes on when it gets cold. Upstairs we have a pure heat pump system, mini split. The downstairs system when it gets below 30 or so switches to the propane heat. The propane heat is nice and warm, while the heat pump in this case is uncomfortably cool, warm air if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, the upstairs heat pump is a super efficient unit that has always given us nice heat even down to -5°F

My take away would be if you have a heat pump system and you have very cold weather make sure it’s one of the more super efficient units. Of course, that also cost more.

Our super efficient unit is a Mitsubishi.

 

[Out of Steam]

Natural gas is rapidly becoming out of fashion in our state though.

That's interesting in Washington state. At least East Coast cities have the legitimate reason of the gas distribution systems reaching their end-of-life, both in buildings and under streets. Even assuming 30 years of continued use is insufficient to justify the cost and disruption of replacing them.

 

[f35phixer]

Southern MD here, We had our HVAC replaced, we are a straight Heat Pump. One day at friends, standing next to stove and vent was right above me, I said dude was is your AUX heat on, he smiled and said this pump is using latest R410 vise R22. So we got one too, couple years later. I use instant read thermometer in summer and winter just to see how it's doing...

I'll just say when it's been cold, the heat right out fan is 90+ degrees. I am snowbirding it so i don't care, otherwise I'd be able to give exact numbers...

 

[Andre1969]

That's interesting in Washington state. At least East Coast cities have the legitimate reason of the gas distribution systems reaching their end-of-life, both in buildings and under streets. Even assuming 30 years of continued use is insufficient to justify the cost and disruption of replacing them.

I seem to recall some article saying that in Maryland, natural gas was starting to fall from favor, and that the state would have to start investing in infrastructure to take that into account. I don't think it's existing customers that are switching over, so much, but moreso most new construction is more likely to go with electric, so that's skewing the percentages away from natural gas. And, of course, the increasing popularity of EVs means more demand for electricity. The EV angle probably isn't that big of a deal for the time being, but I'm sure it will become more relevant in the future.

 

[walkinwood]

Thank you all for your comments.



The "Cold Climate Heat Pumps" are different from the heat pumps that are used in warmer climes. While the basic science is the same, the technology has come a long way. They are now being used in places like Maine without backup heat. Here's an article (from a hvac contractor) on CCHP performance in Boulder CO last December when temps plummeted for a couple of days.


https://elephantenergy.com/heat-pumps-held-their-own-during-arctic-blast-in-colorado/

In 2018 we had a Carrier model 25VNA 4 ton variable speed Heat Pump installed. Speed varies 50 - 100%, 2-4 ton. At the time the most efficient Carrier made. The newer models vary 25-100%. Came from a 15 YO Trane which had a 2 and 4 ton compressors replaced multiple times under a 10 year extended warranty. The Carrier was 16K with a 10 year warranty. All copper Freon lines replaced and MERV 15 air filter. The manufacturers no longer have their own extended warranty and outsource to another firm.
18.0 SEER, 13.5 EER, and 12.5 HSPF
The Carrier so far has kept the 2400 sq ft house in SE PA at 72 down to zero outside temp without any auxiliary heating. Aux heaters, (3) 5KW heaters are set for -10. Vent temps are 92-100 even down to zero. The Trane it replaced started to struggle below 25. Vent temp was around 82.
AC works great also.
Summer temp set to 74 day 72 night. Winter 72 day 70 night.
The only issue with the scroll compressor is when the set point goes up 1 degree when outside temp is 15 or below they will I call it scream because the will spin up to 7,000 RPM. After set point is reached that goes away. It’s not that loud but you’ll notice it. They all make the same noise regardless of the manufacturer. Scroll’s are made by 2 companies IIRC.
Energy saving about $10 a month since both units were high efficiency. We use about 14500KW annually. All electric home. The Carrier is much more comfortable both winter and summer.

Thank you for the detailed information. While we are in a slightly colder care (Denver CO), this is very useful confirmation of what I've been reading.


I'll have to look into what a "scroll compressor" is and see if the noise is a common issue.

I started this thread about cold climate mini splits last month, you might get a bit of info from it. Basically, speaking about mini splits, they have become more efficient and CLAIM to be efficient at providing heat down to -22ºF depending on manufacturer. Mitsubishi and Cooper&Hunter both claim -22ºF heating with others down to -13ºF.
But I haven't found anyone yet who is using one effectively. At my 9400' cabin the coldest this winter is -8ºF. I'm thinking of this summer adding 2 18k-24k minisplits for heating. Cooling is not needed.
Hopefully we can find someone who is using CCHP's and has good info.
https://www.early-retirement.org/fo...-at-high-elevation-and-cold-temps-117013.html

Thanks. The mini-splits supposedly work well at even lower temps than the ducted heat-pumps. I'll read your other thread.

We’re similar to Andre1969 in that we have a heat pump system downstairs with propane back up that comes on when it gets cold. Upstairs we have a pure heat pump system, mini split. The downstairs system when it gets below 30 or so switches to the propane heat. The propane heat is nice and warm, while the heat pump in this case is uncomfortably cool, warm air if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, the upstairs heat pump is a super efficient unit that has always given us nice heat even down to -5°F

My take away would be if you have a heat pump system and you have very cold weather make sure it’s one of the more super efficient units. Of course, that also cost more.

Our super efficient unit is a Mitsubishi.

Thanks. From what I've read/heard is that Mitsubishi's "Hyper Heat" line is the leader in installs.