College advice please

[SecondCor521]

So glad that my kids have mostly completed university education. It’s gotten so expensive!

Education is a priority for us so we planned and pinched pennies for it, but $40-50k a year at university, times three kids is rough. In the end it was worth the sacrifices and every penny.

Now I have a Mechanical Engr, a physicist currently working on his PhD, and a brand new nurse with a graduate degree who will start working at a cardiac ICU next month.

Congratulations!

Can you share a bit about the engineer? My middle son is a sophomore mechE.

 

[Bamaman]

My boss' son went to Georgia Tech and he is working on (or already finished) his doctorate in computer engineering.

Georgia Tech has the most strenuous entrance requirements of any state university in the US. Used to take a 3.7 GPA and 1350 SAT to be admitted.

I also.agree.with the others about UAH and their incredible engineering programs. Full scholarships would be easier to obtain there.

We moved to Huntsville last year and the city has the #2 research incubator in the US. The job market is wide open, and it is the #3 fastest growing city in the US.

 

[1242Vintage]

Congratulations!

Can you share a bit about the engineer? My middle son is a sophomore mechE.

Thank you.

My MechEngr is my older daughter. She went to University of Nevada at Reno (UNR) as a true freshman and a mech Engr major and graduated in four years. We live in CA and Nevada has an arrangement where students from certain counties in CA get a break in tuition. That certainly helped.

She did pass her Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam but has not yet taken her Professional Engineer (PE) exam. Your son should be hearing about the FE exam next year.

I think the best thing she did while at UNR in engineering school was work a couple of internships. Those led to the fantastic position she has now, designing and project managing the development of precision medical devices.

My son, the physicist, also had internships during the summer of his sophomore and junior years. We figure those internships opened the door for a research job at Harvard and ultimately acceptance into the PhD track at Univ of Wisconsin at Madison.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

I graduated from top tier CS program & related MS program 30 years ago.

My long term view is:

1) Top tier differences in education

At the very tip top of the schools, there is a legitimate difference in the education. It is more rigorous and because you're surrounded by other top-tier students, it is simply more challenging. The work loads are higher, the grading curves are less generous, the material comes at you at a faster pace. You will find yourself in different conversations because these are all very high firepower people.

My Masters at the same university was an interesting experiment. It had students coming from all sort of backgrounds. As a broad observation, the students who did undergrad at the top tier universities out-ran the students from state universities.

2) More challenging does not automatically mean better

Once employed, I discovered that my education had been very theoretical. This knowledge has served me very well over the long haul but the truth is that students from State U were actually better prepared for things like coding & testing methodologies upon arrival in the work force.

I could think bigger, but they could hit the ground running on practical application.

As a result, I never wrote a single line of code post graduation...but went on to large strategy and business leadership roles that leveraged those more theoretical/structural insights.

3) More challenging does not mean more capable

Even more than when I went to school, I think top tier schools today are selecting on an increasingly narrow set of criteria. 1600 SATs, 4.0 GPAs, two "made for the college app" personal experiences (and often a load of money to drive access to private education) limits life perspectives and can create a very cut throat competitive culture that isn't healthy.

4) Long haul outcomes are not guaranteed

Its undeniable that I got more job action upon graduation than most. I had six job offers and got to the point that I was declining interviews. Life was good.

Over the long arc, however, one would not look at the people I went to school with and say "wow, they all smashed it." To the contrary, its a big bell curve. Most are fine, some are very fine, and some are just getting by.

5) Cost-Reward trade offs are much worse now

Costs at these top tier universities have exploded while State-U educations have also greatly improved.

Though as some have noted...the top tier universities are willing pay up big merit scholarships to get the good students.

The punchline to all of this:

Both DD1 & DD2 are at out of state universities in STEM fields. They both had skills/resumes to be accepted at top-tier/near top-tier schools in their fields. DD2 had two schools that put over $100K of scholarships on the table.

In both cases, considering all of the above, they chose State Schools that will leave them will little/zero debt, great educations, and wonderful life experiences/perspectives.

YMMV.

 

[ugeauxgirl]

I graduated from top tier CS program & related MS program 30 years ago.

My long term view is:

1) Top tier differences in education

At the very tip top of the schools, there is a legitimate difference in the education. It is more rigorous and because you're surrounded by other top-tier students, it is simply more challenging. The work loads are higher, the grading curves are less generous, the material comes at you at a faster pace. You will find yourself in different conversations because these are all very high firepower people.

My Masters at the same university was an interesting experiment. It had students coming from all sort of backgrounds. As a broad observation, the students who did undergrad at the top tier universities out-ran the students from state universities.

2) More challenging does not automatically mean better

Once employed, I discovered that my education had been very theoretical. This knowledge has served me very well over the long haul but the truth is that students from State U were actually better prepared for things like coding & testing methodologies upon arrival in the work force.

I could think bigger, but they could hit the ground running on practical application.

As a result, I never wrote a single line of code post graduation...but went on to large strategy and business leadership roles that leveraged those more theoretical/structural insights.

3) More challenging does not mean more capable

Even more than when I went to school, I think top tier schools today are selecting on an increasingly narrow set of criteria. 1600 SATs, 4.0 GPAs, two "made for the college app" personal experiences (and often a load of money to drive access to private education) limits life perspectives and can create a very cut throat competitive culture that isn't healthy.

4) Long haul outcomes are not guaranteed

Its undeniable that I got more job action upon graduation than most. I had six job offers and got to the point that I was declining interviews. Life was good.

Over the long arc, however, one would not look at the people I went to school with and say "wow, they all smashed it." To the contrary, its a big bell curve. Most are fine, some are very fine, and some are just getting by.

5) Cost-Reward trade offs are much worse now

Costs at these top tier universities have exploded while State-U educations have also greatly improved.

Though as some have noted...the top tier universities are willing pay up big merit scholarships to get the good students.

The punchline to all of this:

Both DD1 & DD2 are at out of state universities in STEM fields. They both had skills/resumes to be accepted at top-tier/near top-tier schools in their fields. DD2 had two schools that put over $100K of scholarships on the table.

In both cases, considering all of the above, they chose State Schools that will leave them will little/zero debt, great educations, and wonderful life experiences/perspectives.

YMMV.

Thanks for the insights

 

[always_learning]

I'm going to put in a plug for Mississippi State University. They have a very strong program and many of the same companies that recruit UAH students (the defense industry) also recruit at MS State. They also have companies from private industry at the career fairs as well (IBM, International Paper, etc), and even the NSA and FBI recruit there for CS (particularly for their cyber security grads).

Their campus is more like a traditional university with a quad for gatherings, matching buildings, large trees, etc, but much smaller than an Alabama or Auburn campus. It's large enough for a strong student to stand out to professors but small enough so those who need extra help won't be left behind.

The downside is that Starkville is a small town and the nearest "city" is Columbus, so there isn't a lot to do there. Lots of students leave campus on the weekends. There is a very strong Greek presence, but that's optional and there is plenty of peer support if a Greek life isn't chosen.

UAH is also a very solid school. It's not what I would call a 'walkable campus'. The CS building is across a fairly busy city road that's a fair distance from the rest of campus, so a car is pretty much needed. The campus is really more of a commuter school, so it, too, empties out on the weekends. However, there is plenty to do in the city, so boredom won't be an issue.

Both campuses are very solid in their CS departments. MS State used to have excellent scholarships for AL students (as of just a couple of years ago but I haven't looked recently), so much so that it might make more financial sense to choose them over UAH if the deciding factor comes down to $$. Having a car is pretty much essential at either school for trips to the store, etc.

When I was helping my kids look for colleges a few years ago, the advice I kept coming across was to find a school in your budget where the student would be a 'medium-to-big fish in a medium pond'. The thinking was that if they're a big fish with lot of other big fish, the competition for research projects, internships, etc would be more fierce and they could miss out on some great learning opportunities, and if they're a small fish in a big pond, they are more likely to fall through the cracks and get left behind in some way. At both MS State and UAH, a strong student would be a medium-to-big fish in a medium pond and should succeed at either school, both academically and professionally.


And, I ditto the previous comments to keep this thread updated and let us know where your son chooses to attend!

 

[ugeauxgirl]

That's a great recommendation! We will look into Mississippi State. It's actually closer to us than UAH. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Koolau]

I think someone broached the subject of cost/value already. I think it's a good topic because so many folks seem to think it's all about school reputation and being "credentialed" upon graduation. It's my opinion that within most state school systems there are universities to fit most needs of students - whatever the field. Those state schools will have "good" if not stellar reputations for 1/2, 1/4, even 1/10 the cost of the "known-in-the-field-as-the-"best" schools that are difficult/expensive to get into.

Most students don't need to attend out of state universities (essentially starting at double the cost of their own state's universities - to a first approximation.) Pick from the top two or three in your state in the field of interest and your student will not have difficulty finding a "good" j*b (heh, heh, assuming they have a reasonable level of intelligence and especially a good work ethic.)

You have to get a REALLY good j*b to make up the difference between zero school debt (possible with saving/w*rking) attending a state school vs maybe $100,000 to even $200,000 in debt at the "top" schools. True, with grants and scholarships the very TOP students may get a free ride or very subsidized ride. BUT most students are not at the top. So why reach for the best (at a high price) when good enough is more than enough? Very much YMMV since no one knows how their life will turn out.

 

[stephenson]

I worked for a company that built satellites, control systems for satellites, a variety of payloads, high energy laser systems, laser communication systems, etc.

If you were from CalTech, MIT, Stanford, Michigan, Rutgers, UT, Texas A&M, Duke, NC, Carnegie Mellon, Princeton, JHU, Cornell, etc it was a quick hire with bonuses - assuming 3.75 and up GPAs.

Second tier was a bit harder.

It makes a big difference. And, when you toss top tier undergrads together on teams they know who knows what.

 

[RetireeRobert]

For a Computer Science student, it is my opinion that so many state university systems have decent CS bachelor degree programs, and many "non-name" private universities do as well, that the most important factor for a graduate in getting a CS job is to say -- I have a bachelor's degree in CS". Most employers are more interested in the basic signal of competence and ability to learn from any accredited school than they are in the name of a "top and famous" college. There may be a few companies/institutions that are interested in the "name" (perhaps some large DC or NY law firms for law graduates), but I believe the large majority of firms wanting to hire CS graduates are most interested in the bachelor's degree.

 

[SecondCor521]

When I was helping my kids look for colleges a few years ago, the advice I kept coming across was to find a school in your budget where the student would be a 'medium-to-big fish in a medium pond'. The thinking was that if they're a big fish with lot of other big fish, the competition for research projects, internships, etc would be more fierce and they could miss out on some great learning opportunities, and if they're a small fish in a big pond, they are more likely to fall through the cracks and get left behind in some way. At both MS State and UAH, a strong student would be a medium-to-big fish in a medium pond and should succeed at either school, both academically and professionally.

I agree, and the idea behind it is why I'm suggesting schools where your son is about 75th percentile. He'll have peers, but be above average, and get the extra help, advice, internship guidance from the CS professors and so forth.

There's a good discussion of this in Chapter Three of "David and Goliath" by Gladwell.

For a Computer Science student, it is my opinion that so many state university systems have decent CS bachelor degree programs, and many "non-name" private universities do as well, that the most important factor for a graduate in getting a CS job is to say -- I have a bachelor's degree in CS". Most employers are more interested in the basic signal of competence and ability to learn from any accredited school than they are in the name of a "top and famous" college. There may be a few companies/institutions that are interested in the "name" (perhaps some large DC or NY law firms for law graduates), but I believe the large majority of firms wanting to hire CS graduates are most interested in the bachelor's degree.

Yeah the degree in CS will get you the interview. Answering the technical interview questions well and being a person that people can work with will get the job offer.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

For a Computer Science student, it is my opinion that so many state university systems have decent CS bachelor degree programs, and many "non-name" private universities do as well, that the most important factor for a graduate in getting a CS job is to say -- I have a bachelor's degree in CS". Most employers are more interested in the basic signal of competence and ability to learn from any accredited school than they are in the name of a "top and famous" college. There may be a few companies/institutions that are interested in the "name" (perhaps some large DC or NY law firms for law graduates), but I believe the large majority of firms wanting to hire CS graduates are most interested in the bachelor's degree.

We're all probably biased on our own experiences in this regard. I didn't see school make much difference at the jobs I've had and was never really asked about college except for my first job. But times change and that was just DH's and my experience. With our kids we shared our own experiences but had them focus more on hard data on the Payscale reports, starting salaries by college, graduation in 4 year rates, ROI, mid-career salaries by college, etc. They had grants for in state and public, and we told them if you can make a case for us to pay more for private, out of state, or international we will consider it. Most of the schools they kept bringing up cost much more and had lower starting salaries than many of their in state, public options. One always brought up the connections of an expensive private college where a friend was going to school. I just said if the connections really worked at X school, it would be reflective in the salaries, but the hard data shows otherwise. The salaries weren't that high and the cost would have been $50K a year. Plus the school wasn't in the best area in terms of internship opportunities, weather or things to do. But they apparently had a good marketing department.

Now that our adult kids and their friends have been working a few years, at least the ones not going to graduate school, it seems like all the kids that had majors in fields like engineering and CS are doing really well, no matter where they went to college. The local average salary for a full stack engineer according to hired.com is around $150K.

ETA - I just remembered another good resource we used was the Job Outlook Handbook - Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (bls.gov)

 

[bonvoyage]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the most valuable source of information about college: the forums on College Confidential: https://www.collegeconfidential.com

A lot of people here have offered well-meaning but mostly irrelevant advice. When it comes to very practical information about how to search for colleges and pay for them, you can't beat the information you can get on College Confidential.

 

[RetireeRobert]

A lot of people here have offered well-meaning but mostly irrelevant advice.

So you don't think OP has found most of the answers here very relevant and useful to her specific questions posed in her first original post? She indicated her gratefulness a couple times, even said she had her son voraciously reading the thread.

 

[imnontrad]

Have him talk to people in the industry. There are many computer career fields where specific certifications plus experience/competence are valued a LOT more than a degree. When I started in cybersecurity, a Masters degree was the only way to get training. Now there are even "boot camps" to give people people training without a single college course (and salaries easily go six figures after a few years).

Also, look at www.dice.com which is for computer careers t see what employers are looing for. I originally wanted to work in database security but I broadened my scope after I did not see any postings for this (and during my career, only saw one posting looking for this).

 

[stephenson]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the most valuable source of information about college: the forums on College Confidential: https://www.collegeconfidential.com

A lot of people here have offered well-meaning but mostly irrelevant advice. When it comes to very practical information about how to search for colleges and pay for them, you can't beat the information you can get on College Confidential.

Some of us might not think our advice is “mostly irrelevant.”

 

[boilerman]

The challenge of giving advice for any 18 year old is that it’s so hard to know what their interests, needs, etc will be in a few years down the road. So my advise stresses having flexibility and options. The good news is that if he stays in CS, he’ll should be employed and self supporting.

Choose the best school you can afford. Better schools have better students, better professors, more rigorous curriculum, better education and more opportunities downstream. Lots of companies still recognize this. And even if they didn’t, a better education is invaluable. But my emphasis would be on what you can AFFORD. It’s not worth having $100k of debt to attend any school (unless you were Mark Zuckerberg’s roommate at Harvard )

A bigger school usually offers more opportunities than smaller ones. More course selections, majors, intern opportunities, foreign exchange programs. I also believe that non-academic considerations are important: Big time college sports, intramural sports, student clubs, more diverse student body, social life, opportunities to meet your future spouse. I believe the opportunities are all superior at a bigger school.

I wouldn’t fixate on surveys with starting salaries or mid-career salary data. There’s too many variables for it be meaningful. Anyone with a CS degree in today’s economy should do well. Focus on the other areas above

 

[ivinsfan]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the most valuable source of information about college: the forums on College Confidential: https://www.collegeconfidential.com

A lot of people here have offered well-meaning but mostly irrelevant advice. When it comes to very practical information about how to search for colleges and pay for them, you can't beat the information you can get on College Confidential.

Do you perhaps own stock or part of this obviously commercial site? Because of course none of their info would be slanted in anyway...


You do you and we'll do us...I'll take the input of most posters here over 10 of your "most valuable sources".

 

[ivinsfan]

The challenge of giving advice for any 18 year old is that it’s so hard to know what their interests, needs, etc will be in a few years down the road. So my advise stresses having flexibility and options. The good news is that if he stays in CS, he’ll should be employed and self supporting.

Choose the best school you can afford. Better schools have better students, better professors, more rigorous curriculum, better education and more opportunities downstream. Lots of companies still recognize this. And even if they didn’t, a better education is invaluable. But my emphasis would be on what you can AFFORD. It’s not worth having $100k of debt to attend any school (unless you were Mark Zuckerberg’s roommate at Harvard )

A bigger school usually offers more opportunities than smaller ones. More course selections, majors, intern opportunities, foreign exchange programs. I also believe that non-academic considerations are important: Big time college sports, intramural sports, student clubs, more diverse student body, social life, opportunities to meet your future spouse. I believe the opportunities are all superior at a bigger school.

I wouldn’t fixate on surveys with starting salaries or mid-career salary data. There’s too many variables for it be meaningful. Anyone with a CS degree in today’s economy should do well. Focus on the other areas above

Your last two points are good. The problem with your first point is the definition of "Best school"..

 

[boilerman]

Your last two points are good. The problem with your first point is the definition of "Best school"..

Since I don’t rate schools for a living, I would look to the rating services like US News for the best CS programs.

 

[ivinsfan]

Our oldest DD and her husband both got an MIS degree from the Carlson School of Management at the U of Minn.


They never looked back and at 43 would be set to FIRE now if they choose that path. Also they both has plans to go back for an MBA but climbed the ladders at both their companies without it. So a bunch of money saved there too.


I have no idea of the nuances between a MIS and a CS degree.

 

[ivinsfan]

Since I don’t rate schools for a living, I would look to the rating services like US News for the best CS programs.

Nope....they aren't as impartial as they would have you believe. And one kids best school might not work for another kid.

 

[RetireeRobert]

Since I don’t rate schools for a living, I would look to the rating services like US News for the best CS programs.

I agree with your point to pick a school that you "can afford".

For a CS degree, I am of the opinion that "any" school offering one, "and" that also has a relatively high percentage of graduates who have found fulltime jobs in the CS field post graduation would be ok. If there are statistics about schools' CS grads salaries, one might factor that into a choice as well.

Otherwise, other factors important to the student, such as campus activities, culture, geographic location can play a more important part in chosing a school.

Just "get that CS degree".

My DS, who graduated with CS degree about five years ago from a state university, has a nice high paying job with state government. Nice benefits. He just bought himself, after stuffing all his available retirement options with maximum allowed, a brand new car with some of his leftover lucre. He was not the star student, took nearly 6 years to finish the BS CS, but he did it and got the degree.

A CS degree from nearly any accredited college will be the golden ticket, doesn't matter really which college.

IMHO.

 

[boilerman]

Nope....they aren't as impartial as they would have you believe. And one kids best school might not work for another kid.

I’ve never like their methods of rating programs either, but what else do we have? And to some degree, the ratings become self fulfilling, as the best students are attracted to the highest rated programs.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Nope....they aren't as impartial as they would have you believe. And one kids best school might not work for another kid.

They are a for profit business that accepts advertising, so are they going to favor colleges with big advertising budgets? Maybe, maybe not, but I'd take what they have to say with a grain of salt. College Scorecard is would seem to be more of an impartial source as it is from the U.S. Department of Education - https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/.

High SAT scores may be more of an indicator of future career success than school choice. In studies by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale, "Applicants, who shared similar high SAT scores with Ivy League applicants could have been rejected from the elite schools that they applied to and yet they still enjoyed similar average salaries as the graduates from elite schools. In the study, the better predictor of earnings was the average SAT scores of the most selective school a teenager applied to and not the typical scores of the institution the student attended." - https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth