Cost of living and Life Decisions

[marko]

I'm curious what they say after being in NH for a few years. My understanding (admittedly anecdotal) is that property taxes are so damned high in NH (not that they're low in the Bay State) that they remove much of the advantage that once existed. Of course, if you're talking about the cost of real estate, I suppose there's a good savings, at least vs the Boston area or vs areas within commuting distance of Boston.

I've personally never known anyone who moved to NH to come back to Mass. An accountant friend told me it was the best move he ever made and he's a real bean counter.

Lack of income tax is a biggie. "Live free or die" state. Property values are generally lower once you get away from the border towns. Historically, things like car insurance were also quite a bit lower...like 50%; not sure about nowadays.

My Mass property taxes are high ($11K) and I get hit with income tax (5.2% flat tax) in order to pay the property tax. On the flip, there's no income tax on SS but then neither does NH.

One of the reasons that Fidelity moved 1,000 jobs to NH is that the bulk of their employees lived there and commuted to Boston every day...a horror of a ride.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Left London UK for Toronto Canada in 1982 Left Toronto for Calgary Canada in 1986 met DW and Moved to Denver Colorado in 1988, Moved to SoCAL (South Orange County) in 1990. All Moves Up to Denver were with the same Company from the UK. SoCAL was a New Company. ER'd in 2002 and moved to the Caribbean for 3 years Cruising. Settled in North East Florida in 2005, Rented then Purchased in 2008 been here ever since.

We are 65/60 Respectively. Own our home but do pay relatively high RE Taxes (~7k) compared to Low COL Areas even after ~10 Years. But we have a lake in our back yard and ones of the best beaches in NE Florida just about walking distance away.

 

[brett]

We had the good fortune to be moved to another geography by my employer 10 years prior to FIRE.

During this time my income increased substantially. I exercised my stock options prior to and shortly after FIRE. The income tax regime was 11 percentage points below the incremental rate of my previous location. Sales tax was 0 instead of 8 percent. Auto insurance was 40 percent less. Looking back, these differences made a very real difference to our after tax income and our equity growth.

After a few years we came to like our location better than any of the previous ones so we remained here after retirement.

 

[Retch The Grate]

The article details the arithmetic that prompted the decision.
Brings some interesting questions. What brought you to where you are living now? Will this be your retirement home/location? Will the cost of living in the area affect your future decisions?

Currently renting in Mountain View, CA so even if we did stay in the bay forever, it is unlikely that it will be in this house. DW hates silicon valley, so I'm guessing long term we won't be here, even though I love the area.

Places I've lived:
Dublin, Ireland - low COL when we were there, my dad was supporting us on a Professor's salary which in 70s Ireland was a high prestige/low pay occupation
Cork, Ireland - similar
Columbus, OH - no idea, was only 5...
Setauket, Long Island - don't think it was low COL, but my dad could afford it on a professor's salary at SUNY Stony Brook.
Weston, CT - not COL afaik, but again much more affordable back then.
Fox Chapel, PA - definitely not a low COL area, I'd be willing to live out here again
Oberlin, OH - low COL area, where I was for college. Wouldn't want to live there, way too few amenities that I care about now.
Pittsburgh, PA - lived on the south side for a year after graduating, low COL area, still appealing event though I know the city has changed tons in the decades since
Fairlawn, NJ - High COL, but we had 5 software engineers splitting a house we were renting, so it was cheap as heck for us. No particular draw to living there again, just a random jersey suburbia
Hoboken, NJ - high COL, would be down with living there again because the PATH makes in and out of NYC so easy, but I think it has gotten dramatically more popular and harder to find a place to rent since I lived there in the 90s...
San Jose, CA - medium COL (almost certainly high now), walking distance of the heart of downtown, which by NYC standards was pathetic, but so it goes. I'd be ok living there again.
Campbell, CA - high COL, lovely downtown, in the middle of silicon valley, I'd love to live there again
Milpitas, CA - low COL by silicon valley standards, which means high COL still. I'd be ok living here again.
Renton, WA - medium COL, fair bit of crime, but yeah, I'd live near WotC again. Really fun watching the plane fuselages go by on the train lines, hundreds at a time.
Milpitas, CA - see above
Cupertino, CA - high COL, loved the area. DW would never consider moving there, way less walkable than Mountain View
San Francisco, CA - high COL, the move here enabled DW moving in with me as DGF, loved living there, even though it was a little isolating from friends down in silicon valley, would be happy living there again if it weren't for that pesky excessively high property costs.
Mountain View, CA - super high COL, probably wouldn't live in this particular town if I got to stay in the south bay.

I'm guessing that despite my desire to stay in the area, odds are decent DW will want a move to Germany somewhere in the next 5-10 years. Upside, the bay area makes that look like a low COL area! Downside, I have to try and make new friends in my 50s...

Early moves were driven by my dad's career. Moves from college on were driven by my own. I'm prepared to make staying in this area work for retirement, but if we end up somewhere lower COL and I get to retire earlier, I'm ready.

 

[albireo13]

I currently live in NH and work in Mass ... the worst case. I pay nonresident income tax to Mass (5%) plus the elevated property taxes in NH.
Still, I wouldn't change a thing. I enjoy the state and the people.

 

[Dash man]

Currently renting in Mountain View, CA so even if we did stay in the bay forever, it is unlikely that it will be in this house. DW hates silicon valley, so I'm guessing long term we won't be here, even though I love the area.

Places I've lived:
Dublin, Ireland - low COL when we were there, my dad was supporting us on a Professor's salary which in 70s Ireland was a high prestige/low pay occupation
Cork, Ireland - similar
Columbus, OH - no idea, was only 5...
Setauket, Long Island - don't think it was low COL, but my dad could afford it on a professor's salary at SUNY Stony Brook.
Weston, CT - not COL afaik, but again much more affordable back then.
Fox Chapel, PA - definitely not a low COL area, I'd be willing to live out here again
Oberlin, OH - low COL area, where I was for college. Wouldn't want to live there, way too few amenities that I care about now.
Pittsburgh, PA - lived on the south side for a year after graduating, low COL area, still appealing event though I know the city has changed tons in the decades since
Fairlawn, NJ - High COL, but we had 5 software engineers splitting a house we were renting, so it was cheap as heck for us. No particular draw to living there again, just a random jersey suburbia
Hoboken, NJ - high COL, would be down with living there again because the PATH makes in and out of NYC so easy, but I think it has gotten dramatically more popular and harder to find a place to rent since I lived there in the 90s...
San Jose, CA - medium COL (almost certainly high now), walking distance of the heart of downtown, which by NYC standards was pathetic, but so it goes. I'd be ok living there again.
Campbell, CA - high COL, lovely downtown, in the middle of silicon valley, I'd love to live there again
Milpitas, CA - low COL by silicon valley standards, which means high COL still. I'd be ok living here again.
Renton, WA - medium COL, fair bit of crime, but yeah, I'd live near WotC again. Really fun watching the plane fuselages go by on the train lines, hundreds at a time.
Milpitas, CA - see above
Cupertino, CA - high COL, loved the area. DW would never consider moving there, way less walkable than Mountain View
San Francisco, CA - high COL, the move here enabled DW moving in with me as DGF, loved living there, even though it was a little isolating from friends down in silicon valley, would be happy living there again if it weren't for that pesky excessively high property costs.
Mountain View, CA - super high COL, probably wouldn't live in this particular town if I got to stay in the south bay.

I'm guessing that despite my desire to stay in the area, odds are decent DW will want a move to Germany somewhere in the next 5-10 years. Upside, the bay area makes that look like a low COL area! Downside, I have to try and make new friends in my 50s...

Early moves were driven by my dad's career. Moves from college on were driven by my own. I'm prepared to make staying in this area work for retirement, but if we end up somewhere lower COL and I get to retire earlier, I'm ready.

Have you checked the cost of living in Renton lately? My DS lives there and it’s skyrocketing!

 

[kimcdougc]

We have been retired 3.5 years. Sold our house to our daughter 2 years ago last month. We have been renting our DD cute 1927 renovated craftsman house. The deal is, we can rent it for as long as we want for just the house note. We can do anything to it we want and on and on. We really like this cute 800 square foot house with a full unfinished basement for our stuff.

We have been looking for the retirement house for 2 years now. We have looked high and low on the east coast, west coast and in between. Haven't found one yet that we want to pick up and move for. We live in the Seattle metro area and everything is so so expensive.

I get tired of looking for houses. I would just like to stay where we are at for now and wait until the prices go down some. DH is itching to move but he hasn't found the "one" yet either. So until then, we will stay put.

 

[Souschef]

We have been retired 3.5 years.

We have been looking for the retirement house for 2 years now. We have looked high and low on the east coast, west coast and in between. Haven't found one yet that we want to pick up and move for. We live in the Seattle metro area and everything is so so expensive.

I get tired of looking for houses. I would just like to stay where we are at for now and wait until the prices go down some. DH is itching to move but he hasn't found the "one" yet either. So until then, we will stay put.

Come down to Ventura County. In the +55 MHP we live in, they are about to bring 2 new manufactured homes on site this month. They are normally 1400 sq ft or so, and have 2 BR and 2 baths. My guess they will be about $200K. Space rent is rent controlled and is about $600/mo. Our total bill with rent and utilities runs about $850 in the summer..

 

[ITTN]

I have lived within a 10 mile radius all my life. When working, I had a skill set where I was able to find good employment within the 10 mile radius. Most of my family is within the 10 mi radius. I never ever considered promotion offers if I had to leave the 10 mile radius. Oh the COL, the things important to me are within a 10 mile radius, why would numbers on a spreadsheet make me move.

 

[Bamaman]

I have moved 30 times and lived in 5 states. 21 years ago I came to Nevada for a job and love it. Very mild 4 seasons, beautiful, no bugs, tons of stuff to do all the time. COL going up but we own our house. We went to my hometown Kenosha, WI and things were so cheap. We would have a lot more money if we lived there. However, would be giving up a lot and not worth it.

Everything is cheap in Kenosha except property taxes. A friend had a 1100 sq. ft. Craftsman house on a tiny 45 ft. wide lot 10 years ago. Her property taxes were $5,500 per year.

Where I live, the same property taxes would be on a $1.75 million home.

No thanks! The weather is too bad in winter in the upper Midwest anyway.

 

[Bamaman]

What brought you to where you are living now? Work. We were in Atlanta and was asked by my company to take a role that required us to move here, to Chicago.
Will this be your retirement home/location? Certainly not. While we love Chicago, we are truly Southerners. Most of our family and friends are there. Also, Chicago is too far from the mountains or the coast.
Will the cost of living in the area affect your future decisions? Absolutely. In addition to the points above, the high COL in Chicago is another driving force. When we leave, we'll be able to sell our place here, pay cash for our retirement home and have a lot left over to add to our next egg.
So, as soon as DD graduates high school, in 7 years, we are outta here and headed to somewhere around North GA, Western NC, Eastern TN.

I am always appalled when traveling to high COL areas at the cost of housing and taxation. And the prices of homes on HGTV in cities like Toronto are truly frightening--and such crappy properties.

Few places have the standard of living we are afforded living in much of the Southeast. I am so thankful to have lived in cities where I could live in 4,000 square ft. homes with the largest payment being $800 a month.

Our area has decent homes in the low $100's. A $200k house will have property taxes of $750 approx. Defined pensions and Social Security is nontaxed on state income taxes, but sales taxes are high. Cars and boats have a minimal 2.5% sales tax, however.

When working in Atlanta, I was always fearful of Megacorp transferring us west of Philly, to the Detroit area or Southeast Wisconsin. Thankfully that never happened and we were able to keep our standard of living despite being frugal.

And to those looking to make a change, North Georgia, Middle and East Tennessee, Western NC and North AL are hard to beat for quality of life--dollar for dollar.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

I have lived within a 10 mile radius all my life. When working, I had a skill set where I was able to find good employment within the 10 mile radius. Most of my family is within the 10 mi radius. I never ever considered promotion offers if I had to leave the 10 mile radius. Oh the COL, the things important to me are within a 10 mile radius, why would numbers on a spreadsheet make me move.

My highschool graduation class has 750 members. Most of them have lived their entire lives within a small radius of our hometown.

They all seem to be very happy to live there.

I joined a Facebook page for our class, it is interesting how school rivalries that we were in as teenagers, are still a big thing among them, as their children and grandchildren attend the same schools that we attended.

I got out away from that when I was 18. I have lived in dozens of other places and countries. I feel that I have developed an entirely different world view from them.

I have owned a home in Scotland, my children have attended public schools in the UK and in Italy.

I have returned to my hometown many times, but I can not see conforming to that worldview as a happiness for myself.

I attended my 25th highschool reunion. I was the only person there to have already retired. Among that group of people [everyone of them within +/- 6 months of my age, was still over 20 years away from thinking about retirement]

Those 'spreadsheet numbers' as you call them, make a huge difference to some of us.

My classmates need 3X to 4X the Minimum-Wage to survive, they simply can not function without that much cash flow. That is a bedrock foundation in their worldview, regardless of all else that happens, they need that much income every month for their families to survive.

My pension provides me with roughly Minimum-Wage. I live in a very low Cost-Of-Living region. So I can support a family and I can still afford to invest, increasing my portfolio even in retirement.

That is the difference that those spreadsheets can make.

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

I am always appalled when traveling to high COL areas at the cost of housing and taxation. And the prices of homes on HGTV in cities like Toronto are truly frightening--and such crappy properties.

Few places have the standard of living we are afforded living in much of the Southeast. I am so thankful to have lived in cities where I could live in 4,000 square ft. homes with the largest payment being $800 a month.

Our area has decent homes in the low $100's. A $200k house will have property taxes of $750 approx. Defined pensions and Social Security is nontaxed on state income taxes, but sales taxes are high. Cars and boats have a minimal 2.5% sales tax, however.

When working in Atlanta, I was always fearful of Megacorp transferring us west of Philly, to the Detroit area or Southeast Wisconsin. Thankfully that never happened and we were able to keep our standard of living despite being frugal.

And to those looking to make a change, North Georgia, Middle and East Tennessee, Western NC and North AL are hard to beat for quality of life--dollar for dollar.

Just this morning in my email, Zillow sent me a message of a 3bdrm 1 bath house in my area, on the market asking $30k.

Not a bad looking house either, nice area, virtually no crime. Taxes are fairly low.



But in other regions, a good deal on a house will be $300k with high taxes.

 

[Nightcap]

We retired to a high COL spot, the sea-captain’s town of Brewster, halfway between the Canal and Provincetown on Cape Cod. Many reasons - historic, beautiful, on the bike path, but mainly it’s the neighbors. We have the greatest neighbors on earth. Having a community is important. As the Unindicted Co-Conspirator puts it, “I don’t want my husband to die in a bar fight defending me after I’ve made a political comment.”

 

[Teacher Terry]

Bamaman, I absolutely detest the heat so would not want to live in any of the places you mentioned. After taking a driving trip of 4K miles this summer I realized how much I love our weather and love the fact we have very few bugs. I also need 4 seasons. The only thing I don’t like in the last few summers is all the smoke from California.

 

[shortstop14]

We moved from icy upstate New York to Portland, Oregon not long after we got married (at a very young age.) A college scholarship and job offer got us here, along with escaping less than optimal family influences. After a few years we bought a home across the river in Vancouver, Washington where the property values and taxes were significantly less than Portland, but still in commuting reach.

It's not really a low cost of living area, but with a paid for house and no state income tax, it's pretty reasonable. No sales tax in Oregon, and it's a quick trip over the river to the big box stores.

The area has grown up a lot in 35 years, but I expect we'll be here until we get tired of home ownership or the neighborhood deteriorates. After that, likely a rental somewhere in a good walking neighborhood, probably still in Washington for tax purposes - but that could change depending on where our daughter settles.

 

[brokrken]

And to those looking to make a change, North Georgia, Middle and East Tennessee, Western NC and North AL are hard to beat for quality of life--dollar for dollar.

+1 to that. North GA, East TN and West NC are my target areas for FIRE.

 

[Chuckanut]

Arkansas is a real pearl.

 

[nhcycling]

I'm curious what they say after being in NH for a few years. My understanding (admittedly anecdotal) is that property taxes are so damned high in NH (not that they're low in the Bay State) that they remove much of the advantage that once existed. Of course, if you're talking about the cost of real estate, I suppose there's a good savings, at least vs the Boston area or vs areas within commuting distance of Boston.

I moved to a rural town in NH from suburban Boston. I’m extremely happy with the move. It’s still with in commuting distance to Boston and the 128/495 belts, albeit a longer commute. Property taxes are high, no town water, no sewer, no trash pickup. Property taxes in desirable MA communities are high too. You get more house, more land the further you are from Boston, it’s less expensive but not half the cost. If my kids were still school age, I’d still be in MA in a good school district.

 

[Retch The Grate]

Have you checked the cost of living in Renton lately? My DS lives there and it’s skyrocketing!

Everything around Seattle has been going up for years. I'm not shocked Renton is spiking, it was definitely a decent place to live, aside from my car getting repeatedly stolen.

 

[BarbWire]

I'm in the throes of this right now.

I sold out of Austin two years ago because the taxes on a home that I owned outright were simply untenable ($22K for 2016). Now I'm living in my camper-van having a good look around North America, thinking about where to live in the western US (I don't do humidity, and I like mountains).

I'm quite prepared to buy an "expensive" house in a place I want to live as long as my total annual tax bill -- income, property, etc -- is reasonable. I have no strong geographic ties to family so I am footloose.

But all the places that were once on my radar -- like Boise or the western Denver area -- are becoming astronomically expensive. So, I'm not sure where my anchor will next drop.

Add to the mix that I have to consider ACA plans -- unsubsidized -- for four more years. I've had to rule out a couple of states for now because the available health insurance plans are garbage or more than $1000/month for a basic HSA bronze plan (HMO with limited network and no out of network stop-loss).

So now I think about where to live pre-Medicare, and where to live with Medicare.

 

[imoldernu]

Looking back with a smile.... an anachronism...

If ya have a few minutes to take a peek...

The house we used to own in Falmouth Mass, on Cape Cod...back in the year 1963.... We bought it for $10,600 and borrowed $1400 to put in a new heating system and kitchen, so the total cost was $12,000.

Here's a link to Zillow for a look at the same house, which doesn't look any different today. Note the price.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/68-oakwood-ave-falmouth-mass_rb/?
fromHomePage=true&shouldFireSellPageImplicitClaimGA=false&fromHomePageTab=buy

Now, that's just part one... Next... go to city-data.com and enter "Falmouth Mass", and check out the comparison of the median age, and the median income for households, versus the Massachusetts average.

Falmouth, Massachusetts (MA 02540) profile: population, maps, real estate, averages, homes, statistics, relocation, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, moving, houses, news, sex offenders

Had I only known, I could have retired 50 years ago.

 

[ychuck46]

Eight years ago my wife (who was already retired) and I fled the high costs of NY and moved to the Deep South. I worked for a few more years after the move and joined her when I touched 60. It was an easy change for us. The weather was heads above NY's, and regarding the COL there is no comparison. We have a fiscally conservative state that runs a surplus every year. Unfortunately I am seeing many of the same mindsets that ruined those blue states coming here to live, all while they try desperately to muck things up like in their former abodes. Worse comes to worse we'll move again since we have the wherewithal to do so, even if it means out of the US.

 

[morriss003]

We live on the island of Maui, one of the most expensive places in the US. Luckily we bought our 4 acre farm in 1999 at the bottom of the market (for Maui). We paid $375K and put another $75K into renovations. It's worth over a million now. It would be nice to sell and move to a state like New Mexico, but our home is where the family gathers for holidays. No other member of the family has a usable house for the number of people. If my nephew and his wife ever buy a place we will probably leave Maui or else rent a cheap condo.

 

[pdxgal]

So many interesting replies, and much food for thought! I'm planning to FIRE next year and am in wait-and-see mode re: how COL will be a factor. The poster from Vancouver got me thinking I should move across the river from Portland, as taxes would be lower and no income tax. But I do like the community and my friends here, and that's important. Weather too...don't like humidity or too much heat. OffGridFarmer makes Maine sound really appealing. Near-term I plan to live at least part-time overseas for lower COL, especially for healthcare (I'm at least 8 years from Medicare). Ironically my COL would be less if I were to move back to CA, where I have a paid-off condo whose property taxes are less than half those of my OR house, even though it's worth much more. But then I'd lose the rental income. Like the rest of life it's a matter of trade-offs.