DIY Will ????

[sheehs1]

I found mistakes in their documents, they couldn't explain things that they wrote 20 years ago (same guy). Their software spits out generic boilerplate to dazzle the client.
-ERD50

I had a similar experience with the will drawn up by a lawyer over 15 years ago. BTW he charged me $1500 for the will and the trust document (no power of atty's or medical directive). But I really think an intern wrote it up under his direction. I found some of the verbiage less than straight forward.

Anyone doing this themselves or with a software package simply needs to ask themselves, "Who will contest it?". In my case, the answer is "no one".

It used to be with the Unified Tax Credit amount so low, it was important to figure things out in such a way as to make sure Estate taxes were minimized. This is no longer the case for a vast majority of us. Now, it is simply "who" gets "what" and "when" and "the creation of a Trust to avoid probate if one chooses to do so. That is easy enough with a simple "pour over" will that routes all assets into a trust if not routed prior to death.

 

[CoolRich59]

I am an attorney. I did well in my wills and estates course in law school. However, it is not my area of law. So, I would not do my own will. Maybe I could do it. The point is that I think it would be imprudent for me to do so. I don't know what I don't know. it is an entirely unnecessary risk to take.

Similar situation here. I am an atty, took trusts and estates in school, but it is not my practice area. That being said, I respectfully disagree with Katsmeow. In my experience, I've seen some really good products from nolo.com and used their product to write my own will.

But, as others have said (and this is not legal advice), I agree that avoiding probate to the greatest extent possible (via trusts, etc.) is the way to go. If you need to hire an atty to do this, I think it would be money well spent.

 

[ERD50]

Attorneys also use software/canned verbiage.

I am contemplating the same issue. I would use software. If you want additional peace of mind, hire an attorney to review it

My estate is simple also in terms of heirs/baggage.

Sounds reasonable, but from what I've heard, it may be hard to find someone to take that job.

A) They want to charge the full amount.

B) If they pick up something else, they have to check it, and are then responsible for something that they may not be 100% familiar with - back to A if they are going to do that much work.

I can sort of understand - I've seen plenty of cases in programming where it seemed easier to start from scratch than to try to figure out what someone else wrote. But this'll give me another opportunity to get on my soap-box:

Most of these wills/trusts are written with a family member or friend as the executor/trustee. Well, then they sure ought to be written so a lay person can understand them, but as some of us have found, the lawyer who wrote it (or at least signed off and is responsible for it, if some software spit it out), can't even explain it. That's just not right.

Once you dig through a basic will and basic trust, there's really not much to it. There is no reason for it to not be concise (a few pages) and readable and understandable by just about anyone who you would name executor/trustee.

The documents my MIL/FIL got had all sorts of fluff/filler, I think just to be-dazzle clients. There was the usual statement about prudent investing of the assets in the trust, but then there was about a page and a half about how they could, at their option, invest in some obscure conservation trust or something. I never heard of this, and my MIL/FIL never invested in anything complex, so it was just ridiculous to have it in there. When I asked the lawyers about it, I got a 'bla-bbla-standard language' non-answer (IOW, the software spit it out, and they had no idea what it meant).

I was PO'd but bit my tongue as it was my MIL's lawyer, I was just trying to help her and DW, so I had to pick my battles. And after they throw in this fluff, they actually screwed up an important part. I explained to one of the lawyers, she told me I was wrong (but not why), when we met with the primary lawyer, he agreed with me, and corrected it. And my MIL is paying for this? When a lay person points out their errors? OK, at one point one of them looked at me and said "You're an engineer, aren't you?" I laughed it off, but man was I tempted to give them a piece of my mind, about why someone with an engineering degree and no experience in their field can find problems with documents that someone with a JD and years of specialization got wrong. Argggghhhhh!

It really left a bad taste in my mouth for these Estate Attorneys. And this was not some fly-by-night place. A long standing practice in an upscale clientèle area.

-ERD50

 

[OldShooter]

I am an attorney. I did well in my wills and estates course in law school. However, it is not my area of law. So, I would not do my own will. Maybe I could do it. The point is that I think it would be imprudent for me to do so. I don't know what I don't know. it is an entirely unnecessary risk to take.

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) Using forms from SGOTI is obviously easy and to an amateur may seem to be adequate. But this a little like evaluating a movie based on the previews. What happens when these home-made wills have to be used? Not many posts here that include evaluation of that phase. They're nice. They're easy. But when the rubber hits the road do they work in all cases?

2) One approach to formal risk management is to asses a) the impact of the risk occurring, b) the probability that it will occur and c) the cost to mitigate. Where impact is potentially high and cost to mitigate (a tiny fraction of the estate) is low, then the prudent risk management action is typically to mitigate. All it will take is one court judgment, one nasty divorce, or one heir dying prior to the death of the person executing the will to have the whole estate messed up in ways not contemplated by SGOTI. So, to me, it's a no-brainer. Our wills, which include living trusts and testamentary trusts get updated every few years as circumstances change. Cost is maybe a couple thousand dollars per time, which is in the range of a tenth of one percent of the estate. Very cheap mitigation IMO.

 

[CoolRich59]

It really left a bad taste in my mouth for these Estate Attorneys.

They can be a little tough. Perhaps a little more seasoning before putting them in the oven?

 

[Walt34]

They can be a little tough. Perhaps a little more seasoning before putting them in the oven?

Perhaps this discussion belongs on another thread?

http://www.early-retirement.org/for...-in1-pressure-cooker-79692-9.html#post1990314

 

[ERD50]

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) Using forms from SGOTI is obviously easy and to an amateur may seem to be adequate. But this a little like evaluating a movie based on the previews. What happens when these home-made wills have to be used? Not many posts here that include evaluation of that phase. They're nice. They're easy. But when the rubber hits the road do they work in all cases? .... .

I'd suggest you take a look at the nolo.com products. Again, for the common, basic scenarios, this is not rocket science. There is little to go wrong with a time tested, reviewed product like they offer.

... 2) One approach to formal risk management is to asses a) the impact of the risk occurring, b) the probability that it will occur and c) the cost to mitigate. Where impact is potentially high and cost to mitigate (a tiny fraction of the estate) is low, then the prudent risk management action is typically to mitigate. All it will take is one court judgment, one nasty divorce, or one heir dying prior to the death of the person executing the will to have the whole estate messed up in ways not contemplated by SGOTI. So, to me, it's a no-brainer. Our wills, which include living trusts and testamentary trusts get updated every few years as circumstances change. Cost is maybe a couple thousand dollars per time, which is in the range of a tenth of one percent of the estate. Very cheap mitigation IMO.

Most of that sounds just like the FA's that charge 1% or more of AUM. "This is important, you can't afford to screw it up, you need a pro, it's so confusing to the lay person, don't be penny-wise and pound foolish",

Sure, if circumstances change, you need to update things. Sure, if your situation gets complex, a local-person-to-person pro might be called for. But none of that means that a product like nolo.com offers isn't perfectly suitable and safe for the vast majority of cases. A corporation like NOLO is not "just some guy on the Internet" (seems like a straw-man - I really don't think anyone here is advocating getting their estate planing documents from a random 'guy on the Internet'), this is their business and they are very well respected by people w/o an ax to grind. I've got a couple of their books to help me through helping my in-laws, and the books are very good.

Now that my children are all adults, I should update our wills/trusts and POA, directives, etc. I will go through the DIY process, if only to learn how to work with a pro if I feel that is needed. But from my experience so far, I'll be better of with forms like nolo.com [provides - I'll be able to understand them, and walk through them with my wife and kids so they understand them.

-ERD50

 

[PatrickA5]

I did a Willmaker Will for my SIL, recently. Very easy and straight forward. No kids, very little money. She has a little equity in a house, but other than that, the only reason we even did a Will was because by state law her house would go to her dad instead of her sister (which she wants). Now, if I can only get her to get it witnessed and notorized!

My DW and I have a outdated Will done several years ago. I've been studying Wills vs Trusts for quite some time and still haven't figured out what we want to do. I'm also in the process of trying to find a good lawyer that deals with estates, probate, etc ONLY.

For our new Will (or Trust), I will be using a lawyer, not Willmaker. Like they say, you don't know what you don't know.

 

[PatrickA5]

Now, it is simply "who" gets "what" and "when" and "the creation of a Trust to avoid probate if one chooses to do so. That is easy enough with a simple "pour over" will that routes all assets into a trust if not routed prior to death.

I believe even a "pour over" Will as part of a trust has to be probated. At least that's what I've read several times while trying to decide between a Will and a Trust.

 

[Jerry1]

I'm struck by this conversation given that I believe a number of us rely on off the shelf tax software every year. Why don't we go to a CPA or Tax Attorney? Because we think we understand the law well enough to know whether or not we need to do that. Of course, there are some tax situations that are very complex and need professionals to handle, but for the vast majority of us, we do alright even with somewhat complex tax issues. I'm not sure why it would be any difference with a will?

Personally, as I said, I'm thinking of using the software in order to get an understanding and my ducks in a row before I waste the time and cost of a professional. However, If I already had a will done, I'd think I'd have a reasonable understanding of the documents/process and using a DIY product to make a change seems entirely reasonable.

 

[workburnout]

I did a search online for a free trial will. It required that I give a credit card. Then I had 7 days to cancel.
That was plenty of time to use the will service.
I am comfortable with it.
However, I also did a trust that is tied to the will, and paid an attorney for the trust only.

I saw no reason to pay an attorney to do a will I could do myself for free, using the free will/free trial offer.

For a trust, I think an attorney is worth it, but a will, I do not see the need to pay to have it done.

I would say get the will notarized and witnessed (by people not related to you or in the will, so as not to cause legal issuess) as it says to do with the free will trial - and you may have to pay a notary which wouldn't be much.

 

[PatrickA5]

I tend to worry about things that most likely won't happen. Such as what happens if I die and DW marries the pool boy and he ends in inheriting my money that should have gone to my kids? I didn't see that scenario in Willmaker. I'm sure a properly written Trust would take care of this, but do I really want to control my money from the grave? Probably not.

Probably the best thing to do would be have a simple Will and try and make sure everything is titled to where the Will won't even have to be probated. Won't solve the pool boy problem, though.

 

[workburnout]

I did the trust because if anything happens to me everything will go to my niece who is now a minor. I do not trust her parents to do the right thing with the money I want her to inherit. There is no one I know would be trustworthy to not spend her money before she's old enough to.

The trust ensures the bank manages it until she is old enough to on her own. Once she gets older, say in her late 20's or 30's, I plan to revoke the trust and just have the will, and name her as beneficiary on everything.

 

[workburnout]

I tend to worry about things that most likely won't happen. Such as what happens if I die and DW marries the pool boy and he ends in inheriting my money that should have gone to my kids? I didn't see that scenario in Willmaker. I'm sure a properly written Trust would take care of this, but do I really want to control my money from the grave? Probably not.

Probably the best thing to do would be have a simple Will and try and make sure everything is titled to where the Will won't even have to be probated. Won't solve the pool boy problem, though.

A trust would solve the pool boy problem for you! I read a book recently called "Beyond the Grave" which details situations exactly as you described - where having a trust would have prevented that.

It gave me huge peace of mind to get a trust done. A lot of lawyers will try to get you to pay for a will along with the trust, but if you tell them you want the trust only then you can do the will yourself. Then you tie the trust to the will called a pourover trust - it is easy to do. If you ever change the will, you can do that yourself without modifying the trust.

 

[OldShooter]

... Won't solve the pool boy problem, though.

Actually its situations that involve minor children and special-needs heirs that can be concerning.

Special needs first: Any money going directly to the person will be grabbed by the state for his/her support. And depending on the disability, the state may choose a guardian who will have total control over the money.

Kids: Your daughter inherits, she and her spouse die in a car crash, intestate, leaving two small children. The money may go to his parents as automatic guardians or it may go to a guardian appointed by the state, or ..., or..., or..., depending totally on state law and the decisions of a judge who knows nothing about any of the parties or their wishes.

But, hey, those internet wills are easy and cheap. Go for it!

 

[gayl]

I don't have a will. Okay flame on. After helping my brother be executor on my parent's estate (actually I did it all just telling him where to send docuforms), I think I know all the pitfalls. My parents estate attorney made a number of mistakes that I finally got Wells Fargo to help me straighten out.

So here's what I did: I put POD / TOD on all accounts excluding them from probate. I put my house in a trust with equal division between my two children. If I was to do this today instead of 2012, I would put that with a TOD cause but it's fine. I mean I really should get around to it but its transferable as is.

Then I keep everything else under California's small estate affidavit limit of 150K. My kids are very different in their likes and dislikes. I honestly don't envision any trouble at the very end. My siblings and I had no problem

 

[PatrickA5]

A trust would solve the pool boy problem for you! I read a book recently called "Beyond the Grave" which details situations exactly as you described - where having a trust would have prevented that.

It gave me huge peace of mind to get a trust done. A lot of lawyers will try to get you to pay for a will along with the trust, but if you tell them you want the trust only then you can do the will yourself. Then you tie the trust to the will called a pourover trust - it is easy to do. If you ever change the will, you can do that yourself without modifying the trust.

I've read Beyond the Grave and probably a half dozen more books on Wills and Trusts. I feel like I'm ready for the Bar exam. But, still undecided.

 

[catman2020]

Get a living trust to avoid probate. Plus, you can leave your assets in trust to give your kid protection of a continuing trust even with him as the trustee. Talk to an attorney. It's a gift to your kid.

+1

DW and I are in year two of resolving three people’s estates (her aunt and mother and my father). The difference between dealing with a living trust and a will can be huge. Give a gift to your kids of a living will. It’s really not anymore difficult to set up a trust and can be very simply designed if you want. The execution, however, is night and day.

 

[PatrickA5]

+1

DW and I are in year two of resolving three people’s estates (her aunt and mother and my father). The difference between dealing with a living trust and a will can be huge. Give a gift to your kids of a living will. It’s really not anymore difficult to set up a trust and can be very simply designed if you want. The execution, however, is night and day.

Can you give a little more information on why the execution was so much better using a Trust? That's the kind of things I'm trying to find out from people that have actually used one vs the other. Thanks.

 

[catman2020]

Can you give a little more information on why the execution was so much better using a Trust? That's the kind of things I'm trying to find out from people that have actually used one vs the other. Thanks.

Sure. I’m not an attorney so this is just stories from my experience. I think DIY could probably work but if there is much complexity or size to the estate I personally would probably use an attorney.

Here are some examples. Aunt’s house in a will. Goes through probate (a court supervised process where we have to get an attorney go to the courthouse to do the transfer). Mom’s house in a trust. DW automatically becomes trustee on her mother’s death. Nothing needs to be done (although you need to fund the trust before hand. That is title the house into the trusts name).

Aunt’s financial assets are in a will. Needs to be transferred to an estate account which has to file its own tax return until funds are distributed, which again has to go through a court supervised process. Mom’s assets in a trust. Control transferred to wife by presenting death certificate and trust document to the broker. No legal process needed. No new accounts needed.

These are examples are just from my experience. Maybe someone else had a better experience with probate than we did, but if you read a few articles on he subject in pop finance press I think would mostly support doing a trust.

I noticed someone mention TOD on accounts (transfer on death). We found these to be very helpful and for a small estate this would maybe work instead of a trust and you could probably do a title for the real estate like ‘joint with survivorship’ or something. So you could avoid probate potentially without a trust. But a trust can be a few page document if you have a simple estate.

One last word of advice. Don’t forget to fund the trust which means titling accounts and properties into the trust. My father was active with his finances until his death at 94 and there were a few loose ends that we needed to quickly deal with which would have been easier if they had been put in the trust at first.

 

[PatrickA5]

Catman2020, thanks, that was helpful.

 

[Sunset]

....

....

I noticed someone mention TOD on accounts (transfer on death). We found these to be very helpful and for a small estate this would maybe work instead of a trust and you could probably do a title for the real estate like ‘joint with survivorship’ or something. So you could avoid probate potentially without a trust. But a trust can be a few page document if you have a simple estate.

One last word of advice. Don’t forget to fund the trust which means titling accounts and properties into the trust. My father was active with his finances until his death at 94 and there were a few loose ends that we needed to quickly deal with which would have been easier if they had been put in the trust at first.

I don't know of any asset level limitation on a TOD, so my brokerage account with $100 Million (I wish) should easily transfer upon death.

I could see complex estates couldn't rely on TOD, but 5 accounts regardless of the amount within should be able to use TOD.

Anyone know of a dollar limit on TOD for bank/brokerage accounts ?

 

[socca]

I believe even a "pour over" Will as part of a trust has to be probated. At least that's what I've read several times while trying to decide between a Will and a Trust.

I'm not an expert in estate planning, but my understanding is that the 'pour-over' clause in a Will is not a probate-avoidance mechanism. Instead, this clause allows the trustee to dispose of the assets that pass via this clause rather than the executor of the Will. However, in many cases the executor and the trustee are the same person. IIRC, my Nolo estate planning book (which I'm currently re-reading) discourages the use of a pour-over clause in a Will for this reason. This is why it's important for a testator to move all titled assets into the trust after it's created so they aren't part of the probate estate.

FWIW, I'm currently leaning toward doing as much of my estate planning myself as I can, and then see if I'm comfortable with the results or need additional professional help. My estate planning definitely includes creating a revocable trust and moving as much as I can into it to avoid probate.

 

[gayl]

I don't know of any asset level limitation on a TOD, so my brokerage account with $100 Million (I wish) should easily transfer upon death.

I could see complex estates couldn't rely on TOD, but 5 accounts regardless of the amount within should be able to use TOD.

Anyone know of a dollar limit on TOD for bank/brokerage accounts ?

no limit as they are carved out of estate. Has nothing to do with having a final return done, inheritance taxes assessed if necessary, ect. TOD / POD (same as Totten Trusts?) can only cover liquid assets + primary residence in states that permit that (California does)

 

[CRLLS]

This is a timely discussion for us. We are taking the first few months of '18 to clean up /close up the loose ends on our death papers. We have a will and MPOA from about 30 years ago. We have been directed to Willmaker by a FA (not ours).

We just ordered that software earlier today. I think for a simple will/trust, if the direct heirs are reasonably responsible, then even a poorly written will/trust will work.

Only if there are contests to the documents, will a stronger document package be required. Our hope is that, upon our demise, our 2 sons handle the closure amicably. Of course, if one of them gets their nose out of joint, we won't be around to see it.