Finances and Dementia

[bbuzzard]

It has been estimated that 6% of those aged 75-79 and 45% of those aged 95 or older suffer from dementia. This means that at a 4% SWR there is probably a greater chance of suffering from dementia than running out of money. What are you doing to ensure your finances are maintained once/if you loose your mind?

I would hate to lose all my assets to a quick talking salesman when I am 80. Unfortuntely, this happens.

 

[rmark]

Better buy that annuity at 79.

 

[bbuzzard]

Better buy that annuity at 79.

Actually, that was the first thing that occurred to me. However, I suspect that at that time I will not need all the money that annuitizing would provide.

 

[rmark]

We actually had a co-worker who was suffering from the early onset of dementia, and my workplace kept him employed until he could get a pension, so he would have at least some secure income. My wife did a little computer support for him at his home, so we were able to check up on his living condidtions until it progressed too far.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

according to the alzheimer's association "The likelihood of developing late-onset Alzheimer’s approximately doubles every five years after age 65. By age 85, the risk reaches nearly 50 percent."

i'm not at all concerned with my finances if i see myself slipping into dementia. i've already taken out an excellent annuity plan through the bank of smith & wesson na.

 

[rmark]

I had a great uncle who in his mid/late 80's would check himself out of the nursing home to run the local small town poolhall while the owner left on vacation. He was at the nursing home because his own home was too far out in the countryside, and he figured they would keep an eye on him. He lived into his mid 90's.

 

[mickeyd]

excellent annuity plan through the bank of smith & wesson na.

What rate are they currently paying? .357?

 

[TromboneAl]

Better buy that annuity at 79.

Just don't buy it from a quick-talking salesman.

 

[FinanceDude]

Better buy that annuity at 79.

How would you remember you had one??

 

[Khan]

How would you remember you had one??

Dementia usually has fairly slow progress; the trick is not to wait too long.

 

[mickeyd]

the trick is not to wait too long.

Kinda sounds like market timing doesn't it?

 

[grumpy]

My Mom suffered from alzheimers so I know what it can do. DW and I have both given our son durable power of attorney and health care power of attorney. Long before I would reach the point of being susceptible to a financial scam I would turn over responsibility for my financial affairs to my son. This is what my parents did with me and it worked well.

Grumpy

 

[bbuzzard]

My Mom suffered from alzheimers so I know what it can do. DW and I have both given our son durable power of attorney and health care power of attorney. Long before I would reach the point of being susceptible to a financial scam I would turn over responsibility for my financial affairs to my son. This is what my parents did with me and it worked well.

I think this is what most people are depending on. However, I have personally seen several and heard of many other cases where the senior does not realize they are no longer capable of taking care of the finances, and does not turn over control. I think this is the crux of the problem.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

What rate are they currently paying? .357?

damn, i should have thought of that. good catch.

Kinda sounds like market timing doesn't it?

it's less market timing and more window of opportunity.

Long before I would reach the point of being susceptible to a financial scam I would turn over responsibility for my financial affairs to my son.

what bbuzzard said, also problem with poa is they are revokable. so you might turn over control while you are in control but then revoke it when you are out of control. paranoia often accompanies dementia. to keep yourself safe you might consider discussing with your children the possible need to have you declared incompetent by the state and have the children become your guardian at that point.

discussing this with them now will lessen their guilt, if need be, later.

 

[USK Coastie]

We are going through this with MIL. Noticed the on set '97. She almost bought an annuity form slick salesman in '02. DW said after getting it squared away "Mom your're coming to live with us". She lived with us until Sept last year when her needs exceeded our ability to care for her. Fortunately when we moved her up here she was lucid enough to sign a POA putting DW in charge of her holdings.They are presently structured to deliver 90% -110% of the present cost of her full time care in an assisted living center for dementia patients.

Both DW and I now have POA's and living wills to help with the decision making issues. All of the issues have been discussed with both sons and they have copies of all paper work.

DW says she'll take pills and booze if she finds out that she has dementia. Me I'll probably opt for Mr. Colt 45.

 

[Callie]

My mom is in the situation. My sis has to keep a close eye everything. A day trader and his bank office GF talked my mom into an annuity. My sis made sure that will not happen again.

It's a bit of a nightmare. When my 85 year old grandpa died he had a bunch of annuities a S&L talked him into.

 

[Martha]

People have a hard time talking about finances and death. I think if you start early sharing with your significant others what you want the less hard it will be to turn over control later. My father always shared with his kids everything about his situation, both regarding his health and his finances, such as they were. It made it much easier to address problems even when we were young. It just was a matter of fact part of life, rather than a big mystery.

In contrast, DH's father was much more private and it made it hard to both get a handle on his health status as well as his finances.

Our issue is that we have no kids and no responsible younger relatives. We do have a set of close friends who hold a POA for us and are our personal representatives/trustees under our will and trust. We have provided them "in case something happens to us" instructions. We will see if any adjustments have to made as time goes on. I worry somewhat that one or the other of us may be vulnerable to irresponsible nieces or nephews. My nightmare is that the survivor of us becomes incompetent and a niece or nephew robs us blind.

 

[Cattusbabe]

This is an excellent thread and while difficult to think about this kind of stuff one should. Like most things involving aging it is also better to plan long before the problem shows up.

If you have kids you can depend on your blessed. Talk to them early and often about your affairs, what you want and put as much of that in writing as you can to act as a guide for them.

If you don’t have kids you can count on, which is our situation, then you have to find alternatives. We of course have the POA for financial and medical and HIPPA statements for each other so that we can handle each other’s affairs when the other is incapacitated. That is assuming that one remains intact while the other does not. But what happens if we both suffer dementia at the same time or if the one who is intact dies before the one with dementia.

Luckily there are things you can do in situations like this. There are Case Managers (Social Workers) who can work with you to oversee your care. There are also Elder Care programs to assist you with aging in place (at home) and that will act in your interest so that you get the care that you need when you can no longer take care of your self. These are not always easy to find and vary from state to state so the sooner you start looking the better.

The way DH and I looked at it planning for this contingency was part of our over all financial plan and just as important as where and whit whom we invested our money.

 

[SteveR]

People have a hard time talking about finances and death. I think if you start early sharing with your significant others what you want the less hard it will be to turn over control later. ...

Agree. Been there done that and have the T shirt to prove it.
DW #2 did not want to talk about finances other than to check balances in the various accounts a few times a year to make sure I was "doing my job". Likewise, she did not want to talk about her last wishes. This made it very difficult to plan a funeral when the unthinkable happened.

As painful as it might seem, start talking with your spouse or SO about the "what if..." questions and then make a plan to address them. Get your financial house in order and keep it up to date. Wills, trusts, Healthcare POAs and other related docuements become invaluable when the are needed. I have used them and it made many things not only easier but do-able where I had control of heathcare decisions rather than a state or a court.

Finances are sometimes very difficult for parents to discuss. My father never talked about his finances. It was not until after he died that we understood what he had and where it was so we could help my mother pay the bills. She is much more open as she would much rather hand it all over to us rather than have to do it herself.

Having said all this, I have not been as open with my own kids on our financial situation. I have everything written down but I believe my kids are too inexperienced and too distracted with being young adults to really understand the ramifications of what they could inherit were we both to die suddenly. Someday they will be told, but not yet. Besides, if they don't call me a little more often I might just write them out of the will.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

My nightmare is that the survivor of us becomes incompetent and a niece or nephew robs us blind.

in florida, which once ran rampant with such fleecing, once the elder person is declared incompetent, guardianship is appointed and assets are gathered and held in state protected guardianship accounts. every significant expense comes under state scrutiny, with all withdrawals of large sums requiring court order. yearly audits are conducted by the county. also the county checks yearly on the health & status of the ward.

 

[2B]

Lazy repeated the number I heard when we were shopping for a facility for my in-laws -- 50% of 85 year olds suffer from some form of dementia.

I will say it is difficult to see when someone slips over the edge and married couples seem to be able to compensate well for each other when they lose capabilities.  I don't think we can ever "know" when are minds are starting to go.  The ability to recognize diminished capacity is probably the first thing to go.

My in-laws were living on their own and seemed to be managing their affairs adequately.  Then my MIL fell and broke her hip.  The doctor told us she would never leave a nursing home.  She seemed to be in control of her mind but after the fall we found out she was "seeing" people and interacting with them.

Then, it became obvious my FIL wasn't right.  My wife would find stacks of mail all over the house with unpaid bills.  At first she would sort them out and put them in a stack for her father to pay.  He never did.  Finally, my wife would stand over him while she directed every check to be written.  He would argue that he didn't have enough money to pay all of his bills so he'd refuse to pay some.  She discovered he was eating every meal out so she started to make him "freezer meals."  He would defrost them.  She put them in the refrigerator with notes on cooking instructions.  They would go bad.  Finally, a social worker came up to her and said how tough it must be on her to have her mother in the nursing home and her father with Alzheimers'.

Denial set in for DW but eventually we had feedback from neighbors and friends about his strange behavior that caused her to take him to a neurologist.  He had the mental capacity of about a 7 to 9 year old.

We ended up putting him in an assisted living facility that has an attached nursing home for his wife.  He spends his days visiting her.  He has deteriorated rapidly and his mental capacity will probably force him into a memory care unit within the year.

Ahhhh annuities and their salesmen.  My FIL put almost all of his available cash into a crappy annuity at the age of 82.  Financially, it was a stupid thing for a person on SS and a small pension to own.  

Also at 82, he was sold a "new" demo Cadillac Escallade with over 40,000 miles on it $3,0000 under the sticker price.  There was a salesman who knew his mark customer.

There were lots of financial problems that we discovered.  Finally, DW is accepting the fact that they are as bad as they are and that they will never be normal again. Fortunately, I insisted when they were about 80 to get wills (didn't have them!) and the POA's. They argued for weeks but eventually did it. DW has their POA and controls everything.

 

[DangerMouse]

We are also in the camp of not having children. However I am not so certain that is a negative going by the behaviour I have seen displayed by some children towards their parents, just wanting them to pop their clogs so they can get their hands on their inheritance.

For us, we don't have any family members we would trust to look after our best interests or our money. We figure by time we get to our early 60s, we will have to have some solid legal instructions and a trustworthy finance manager on our books. We are hoping that maybe one of the nieces or nephews might grow up to be a half-decent human being who would could trust, but we refer to the eldest two nephews as Bevis and Butthead so that is an indication of the caliber of relatives we have.

FIL is rapidly slipping into dementia, DH has finally admitted that he can see the issue. It does scare us, because we are concerned about having no-one to look after our best interests.

 

[ESRBob]

I worry somewhat that one or the other of us may be vulnerable to irresponsible nieces or nephews. My nightmare is that the survivor of us becomes incompetent and a niece or nephew robs us blind.

martha,
I don't know if this makes the nightmare better or worse, but if you are incompetent and in some sort of institutionalized care (big if, and obviously key to be in one that you buy into so they can't kick you out if your funds dry up), then do you know or care where your money is?

I visit my mom and dad in various stages of assisted living/nursing in FL and see the folks down there. For all the time we spend earning, saving, thinking about SWR etc, by the time we're in nursing care, say age 90, all we really need is someone to change our diapers, feed us something not-too-awful, and park us somewhere near a window every morning. All the other stuff is going to permanently fade away in importance, and will it even matter who gets your $. I know it's morbid but this is what I've been thinking about lately.

Still we have some good decades left! I spent the last 3 weeks being completely immobilized with a slipped disc and thought a lot about what happens when you can't get around, your health deteriorates, you become marginalized and every day is a long chore just to keep your head above water. Fortunately after a trip to the chiropracter today I'm my old self again but it has made me think how short our years might be and how we really need to grab them before our body, brain or something else goes south on us (not if, but when).

 

[youbet]

Lazy repeated the number I heard when we were shopping for a facility for my in-laws -- 50% of 85 year olds suffer from some form of dementia.

2B,

I've really appreciated you sharing your experiences with your inlaws as they became incapable of independent living and the challenges you and your wife faced. But, looking ahead, based on your experience what are you doing to prepare for your own mental and/or physical demise? What have you learned from your experience with the inlaws that's helping you plan for yourselves? POA's in the hands of your kids? Trusts? Prepaid care and funeral expenses?

 

[2B]

youbet,

DW and I have the POA, living wills and our wills create trusts. When we establish retirement full force and know where we will live will create another round and then I'll look at some version of a living trust.

All of our finances are in Quicken and the kids know the password. All the needed tax records are kept in one box. As they become a little older I plan on doing a full financial review with them. That will happen about when I'm 65 is my guess.

Most importantly, I've told all of my kids that when they see us going into this mode they need to do what needs to be done. I tell them we won't be any better than their grandparents and probably just as uncooperative. They need to know that we aren't able to decide for ourselves so they need to do it for us.