Fogged Windows

[tb001]

After reading the comments in the recent repair thread I’m wondering how long double paned windows are supposed to last and, more importantly, if the benefits as far as energy savings and noise reduction, are really worth the increased cost.

We just moved into a house with tons of fogged windows. The house is a little under 20 years old and the cost to replace just the bad ones is 25k. And there are many more starting to fog. We replaced half of the windows in our last home after ~10years. It just seems like these are the latest in ‘planned failures.’

Living in a relatively mild climate, I’m starting to wonder if the double paned windows are worth the cost and what seems like regular replacement cycle.

Had anyone had double paned windows that didn’t fog within 10-15 yrs I’m used to 100 yr old houses where windows need replaced when they get broken!

 

[6miths]

They do seem like planned obsolescence. Our house is full of double panes installed in 1988. None have fogged to this point. Previous house had double pane and one fogged. I took it apart, tossed the fogged (and etched) sheet, bought a new sheet of glass and siliconed it to the frame on a cold dry winter day. Five years later when moved out it was still fine.

 

[tb001]

They do seem like planned obsolescence. Our house is full of double panes installed in 1988. None have fogged to this point. Previous house had double pane and one fogged. I took it apart, tossed the fogged (and etched) sheet, bought a new sheet of glass and siliconed it to the frame on a cold dry winter day. Five years later when moved out it was still fine.

Wow, 1988 means they should be lasting far longer! I wonder if a repair might work. I think many of them in the doors have led to problems with the frames because they haven’t been fixed.

 

[samclem]

The >windows< don't need to be replaced. The insulated glazing units (IGUs) need to be replaced, and this is a lot less expensive. Of course, if someone wants to sell you new windows, that's what they'll tell you needs to be done.
Also, many of these units come with very long warranties, so you might be covered. It is worth a check.

 

[tb001]

The >windows< don't need to be replaced. The insulated glazing units (IGUs) need to be replaced, and this is a lot less expensive. Of course, if someone wants to sell you new windows, that's what they'll tell you needs to be done.
Also, many of these units come with very long warranties, so you might be covered. It is worth a check.

Hmmm, that’s interesting. In both houses the fix has been to replace the entire inside glass piece—is this the IGU? Our last house had a warranty but it didn’t transfer to a new owner. I’m trying to get in touch with the people who did the original windows for this house, but given what I know of the previous owners, if they were under warranty they would have been fixed.

I’m just amazed at how common a problem this seems to be. In our Southern California climate, I can’t imagine the double paned windows are worth it from a $$ perspective, but I’m pretty sensitive to noise.

 

[samclem]

Hmmm, that’s interesting. In both houses the fix has been to replace the entire inside glass piece—is this the IGU?

The IGU is a sealed unit that contains the inside and outside glass and the edge/gasket between them. The space between the panes is normally filled with argon, and there is often a small bit of dessicant in there to absorb some water vapor if/when it gets in.

I’m just amazed at how common a problem this seems to be. In our Southern California climate, I can’t imagine the double paned windows are worth it from a $$ perspective, but I’m pretty sensitive to noise.

If you replace these with single-paned units, noise outside will travel inside more effectively. The windows may also have condensation inside when it is cold outside, and this condensation can do damage to sills trim. Energy use aside, it is possible that your present AC unit, designed for a house with dual-paned windows, won't be able to handle the heat load on especially hot days, and then it will be uncomfortable inside. It is possible, but less likely, that the furnace/heating unit won't keep the house as warm as you'd like when it is cold.
If you do decide to replace the entire windows, get several estimates. Well-functioning and insulating windows do not have to be very expensive, but going for an upscale look will increase the cost a lot.

 

[Bamaman]

I've had two houses in the last 15 years. One is now 15 years and the other 18 years old without a single fogged window. All the windows are those cheap vinyl single hung windows too.

I've also got a lake house with Pella aluminum clad wood windows. In 38 years, not a single fogged window. But those windows now would cost more than the whole house cost to build.

 

[Jerry1]

The house I moved into a few years ago has a couple windows that are fogging. We think they were put in in the 80’s. So, about a 10% (in my case) failure rate after thirty plus years doesn’t seem too bad. We had them quoted but it was too much, especially for a window that is most always covered by drapes. If it was one of the windows that looks out onto our backyard, I’d probably have got the window replaced. I don’t think the seal being failed impacts the benefits of the double pane.

 

[samclem]

I've had two houses in the last 15 years. One is now 15 years and the other 18 years old without a single fogged window. All the windows are those cheap vinyl single hung windows too.

The windows in our house are cheap vinyl sliders (Alside brand). They've been there for 12 years now and we have had zero failures (one did crack during installation). There are a >huge< improvement over the single-paned aluminum framed windows they replaced. Quiet, well-sealing, easy to operate.

 

[tb001]

Thanks samclem, that's helpful. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure 25K quote was to replace the IGUs, not the whole window unit. We have a LOT of windows.

Our current home and previous home theoretically have very high end doors/windows and we have several sets of french doors where the individual panes have all fogged.

Jerry, this is far more than 10%. I think the issue is that once they start fogging you get moisture inside that can accumulate in the frame, so it's not just an aesthetic issue. Many of the doors are in rough shape at the bottom due to moisture accumulation.

Bamaman, the cost is crazy! And the worst is that we can see more with small hints of fogging, so while it might only be 1/4 of them failing now, my guess is probably 50% all in have an issue. That's like a new roof!

ETA, that it seems to be sunlight related for us. The failures in both houses were in windows with high sun exposure.

 

[Sunset]

IGU's are not expensive, so even with labor I'd estimate $25K would do 50->75 panes.

Remember the little panes cost quite a bit less than the large ones, so a french door may result in each IGU costing $35 plus labor.

Here is a website where you can order them yourself, good to see what the prices are like:
https://www.onedayglass.com/igu-replacement-for-double-pane-windows/

 

[tb001]

IGU's are not expensive, so even with labor I'd estimate $25K would do 50->75 panes.

Remember the little panes cost quite a bit less than the large ones, so a french door may result in each IGU costing $35 plus labor.

Here is a website where you can order them yourself, good to see what the prices are like:
https://www.onedayglass.com/igu-replacement-for-double-pane-windows/

That's interesting. I just revisited our quote. It looks like we have about 60 panes being replaced, so that's probably about right. The labor is expensive! It looks like the quote is about 70% labor and 30% actual windows.

I'm pretty handy and now you have me wondering if I might be able to at least DIY some of the easier ones.

 

[Sunset]

^^^^
Watch some videos on you tube , and pick a convenient window pane, and give it a try.
If you mess it up, you are going to have them do it anyhow , so nothing to lose.

 

[tb001]

^^^^
Watch some videos on you tube , and pick a convenient window pane, and give it a try.
If you mess it up, you are going to have them do it anyhow , so nothing to lose.

In looking at the videos, all of ours are stationary and caulked in place, so the hardest type to repair. I might try it anyway on one door panel, just to see if it's doable...

 

[Scuba]

We have Milgard windows. In 15 years, one fogged up. They replaced it, no charge. I think it’s a Lifetime warranty but the catch is, you must be the original owner. Luckily, we are.

Double-paned windows make a HUGE difference in noise reduction. I suppose it depends where you live, but we live in an urban beach community so there are lots of public events within earshot. If we close all doors and windows and run our A/C, we hear nothing from outside.

 

[brucethebroker]

The >windows< don't need to be replaced. The insulated glazing units (IGUs) need to be replaced, and this is a lot less expensive. Of course, if someone wants to sell you new windows, that's what they'll tell you needs to be done.
Also, many of these units come with very long warranties, so you might be covered. It is worth a check.

Yeah, a problem faced many times with home sellers also. We have a local guy who specializes in just replacing the double pane glass-usually $150 to $250 each: or about 1/2 the cost of replacement windows.

The term "replacement windows" confuses many folks, so they get bids on replacing the entire unit instead of the glass-which can cost $500 or window or more. If the frame is still solid, and the windows easily slide open, and stay open, consider glass replacement only.

BTW, we live in a mid-century home with the original 60 year plus aluminum framed windows, single panes with storms. They still look and work great (it is a pain to remove storms each year...). Utility costs are not outrageous (lots of summer shade trees). We priced replacements a few years back and had quotes of $9k to $20k. No thanks.

 

[braumeister]

I've talked with a few window places recently and they tell me that many manufacturers give a 20 year warranty on them. They didn't know of any warranty that was longer. 20 years sounds like a long time, but in terms of the life of a house not so much. I have windows that are fogging and when I started looking into replacement I found they were 21 years old so no help.

 

[CRLLS]

I went thru replacing 7 IGU's last year. I had the local glass guys come out and measure the IGU then ordered the glass. I have aluminum clad wood windows. I took the opportunity to refresh the wood while they were out and then had the glass co install the IGU in the wood frame.

 

[imoldernu]

Probably a waste of time, but something to look at.

https://foggywindowrepairkits.com/

or this:

https://newmiddleclassdad.com/double-pane-window-fogging-repair/

 

[Sunset]

I've talked with a few window places recently and they tell me that many manufacturers give a 20 year warranty on them. They didn't know of any warranty that was longer. 20 years sounds like a long time, but in terms of the life of a house not so much. I have windows that are fogging and when I started looking into replacement I found they were 21 years old so no help.

Anderson windows come with a 20 year warranty, they have a symbol and date etched in the bottom right corner of the window.
However, reading the etching which is lightly done is pretty hard at the actual date part (trick?).
Ours was 23 yrs old when the outer pane shattered, making it a single pane window.

The only nice thing about the Anderson double hung windows is they will sell and ship the sections of window (IGU plus frame) for about 3x the price of the IGU. Some people say it's impossible/extra hard to replace the IGU itself by design.

 

[Chuckanut]

+1 on replacing just the glass. A few friends have done it. Of course, you don't get the fancy new look of new windows..

 

[street]

The seal has failed and that is the reason for the fog. A new sash will be required for an Anderson window. I would suspect if a double pane is fogging it would be the case in all brand name windows. New sash good to go.

 

[samclem]

ETA, that it seems to be sunlight related for us. The failures in both houses were in windows with high sun exposure.

I think this is normal. The biggest stress on the seals comes from differential expansion of the inside pane and the outside pane. I'd also guess that smaller panes might last longer than bigger ones.

 

[Sunset]

The seal has failed and that is the reason for the fog. A new sash will be required for an Anderson window. I would suspect if a double pane is fogging it would be the case in all brand name windows. New sash good to go.

Have you ever tried to replace the the IGU on an Anderson window ?

 

[samclem]

If IGUs really have an expected life of about 20 years, then picking windows in which they can easily be replaced would be a smart move. I've never seen this aspect highlighted in marketing/advertisements for windows. The ads all imply the glazing will last forever (like it used to).
It would also make sense to pick windows that use standard/common size IGUs.