Gas Prices.........

[frank]

I don't drive a lot on a daily basis, probably 15 mis. I live in the country and go to town to pick up things. I do think that there is no shortage of oil and that the hedge funds and pension funds are pushing the commodity markets on oil for a big profit. they are not looking to the future and the government should do something to stop this speculation before it ruins our economy altogether.

 

[Major Tom]

I don't drive at all, a bicycle and public transport having been my sole mode of transportation for the last 9 years. However, I am considering living in an RV in the next few years and gas prices will figure quite heavily in my cost of living calculations. I'll probably be wandering around slowly, getting to know each place a little. My current plans call for a total of about 500 miles a month.

 

[Alan]

There is a downside to diesels.... (maybe it is not as bad today... but it was bad 10 years ago).... the soot.... when I was living in London I would get a lot of black soot in my nose... you could see it when you blew your nose!!! Mabye it was something else... but I did see it in a lot of other countires in Europe...

The new diesels are low sulfur, not much black smoke at all anymore..........

I would say no black smoke at all with clean burning diesel.

We bought a Prius 4 years ago when they were still on sale and with tax rebates as a further encouragement.

Now that we are ER'ed we drive very little.

This last month and for the next 6 months we are managing quite nicely on foot, bus and train while here in England. We fully expected to hire a car on special occaisions but find the buses and trains are convenient very regular and very affordable.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't drive at all, a bicycle and public transport having been my sole mode of transportation for the last 9 years. However, I am considering living in an RV in the next few years and gas prices will figure quite heavily in my cost of living calculations. I'll probably be wandering around slowly, getting to know each place a little. My current plans call for a total of about 500 miles a month.

I just found a blog of another RV full-timer who is 41 yr-old. He is a wood-wind musician, but also makes a living composing and writing music arrangements for the movie and TV industries in LA. He has been traveling for less than two years, working from his RV, and has recently upgraded from his first older class B+ to a used but newer and larger class C Chinook (some would still call it a B+ as it appears to lack the overcab bed). Search for "To Simplify", and you will see his blog. I remember he posted his expenses at $900/month.

As of this writing (4/17/11) he is not too far from my 2nd home (in the boonies)!

Dang! Soon, the whole world will live on wheels!

 

[freebird5825]

Gas prices locally...almost up to $4 per gallon.

Lowest $3.93
Highest $3.97

Even with keeping our driving primarily under 20 miles RT in the most gas efficient car, Mr B and I spent $315 in gas between March 16 and April 9.

 

[Major Tom]

I just found a blog of another RV fulll-timer who is 41 yr-old. He is a wood-wind musician, but also makes a living composing and writing music arrangements for the movie and TV industries in LA. He has been traveling for less than two years, working from his RV, and has recently upgraded from his first older class B+ to a used but newer and larger class C (some would still call it a B+ as it appears to lack the overcab bed). Search for "To Simplify", and you will see his blog. I remember he posted his expenses at $900/month.

As of this writing (4/17/11) he is not too far from my 2nd home (in the boonies)!

Dang! Soon, the whole world will live on wheels!

He was even featured in the LA times. Cool!

I bet that $900/month figure doesn't include an estimate for maintenance, or factor in the cost of the vehicle though. I've trimmed my living expenses so far down that to live in a small RV will involve an increase in spending - though the cost will still be very reasonable. If I'm being honest, my current low-cost lifestyle isn't doing much to increase my experience and enjoyment of the world. An RV lifestyle should cure that without breaking the bank.

I just discovered a program called Harvest Hosts. For $30/year you get a list of wineries and farms around the US that will let you boon-dock on their land for free. Staying free at a winery sounds like a perfect match for the RV lifestyle (unless you're teetotal of course )

 

[NW-Bound]

I bet that $900/month figure doesn't include an estimate for maintenance, or factor in the cost of the vehicle though.

That's correct. However, as I remember, it included all regular recurring charges, even his health insurance at $85/month (where the heck he got one that cheap). He appears to not lack anything, still going to coffee shops for a latte, or to bars to drink.

I've trimmed my living expenses so far down that to live in a small RV will involve an increase in spending - though the cost will still be very reasonable. If I'm being honest, my current low-cost lifestyle isn't doing much to increase my experience and enjoyment of the world. An RV lifestyle should cure that without breaking the bank.

Yep! One may have to spend a bit more to enjoy life.

I just discovered a program called Harvest Hosts. For $30/year you get a list of wineries and farms around the US that will let you boon-dock on their land for free. Staying free at a winery sounds like a perfect match for the RV lifestyle (unless you're teetotal of course )

I remember reading about that program. It sounds good for full-timers who camp in one place for a week or a few days.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Just filled up at COSTCO's. I do that if I have half a tank or less remaining. Price there was $3.739 and with my additional discount of 3% with AMEX card, brought price down to $3.626. $0.113/gal savings. Would love to find a card with 5% discount. Know of one?

 

[cho oyu]

Yes, coefficient of friction is the same for all vehicles. Learned that in EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operator's Class). It was beaten into us by the Court Certified Accident reconstruction expert PA State Police instructor.

And demonstrated with various tire segments on a variety of pavements.

Now if the vehicle, say a tractor trailer is moving at some speed at the time of using a stationary Prius for a bumping post the mass becomes relevant. The Tractor trailer's non-impact stopping distance remains the same.

For further info see: Engineering Physics for Lawyers. http://www.e-z.net/~ts/physics.htm

Assuming the static coefficient of friction is equal for all vehicles isn't bad for a first order approximation. On the other hand, it's simply not correct.

Although I don't have any sources on hand, I recall numbers ranging from maybe around 0.5-0.9 for different tires on the same type of pavement (e.g. race slicks vs worn touring tires).

Let's think about the problem in two slightly more extreme manners. Let's start out with one surface - our road. We'll then place 2 vehicles with different tires on top of this surface: one with wheels of glass, one with wheels of rubber. It's pretty clear that the vehicle with wheels of glass will have a lower coefficient of friction than the vehicle with wheels of rubber.

For the second extreme, we'll use a vehicle with 1" wide tires that are inflated to 150psi and a second vehicle with 30" wide tires inflated to 25psi. When both vehicles slam on the brakes, it's again pretty clear that the vehicle with 1" wide tires isn't going to stop anywhere near as quickly.

This same result, although not as extreme, will be found with different tires that have different rubber compounds (softer and harder) and contact areas.

Again, the assumption that coefficient of friction is constant for all tires and all vehicles isn't bad for a scenario as fraught with measurement uncertainty as a vehicle accident. But it's kind of like using Newton's theories of mechanics to try to describe the complete motion of planetary bodies: it works until it's wrong.

 

[REWahoo]

I would say no black smoke at all with clean burning diesel.

My 2011 diesel truck has no black smoke - no visible tailpipe emissions at all.

In the US, not only has low-sulfur fuel helped cut diesel soot/emissions, beginning in 2010/11 new "clean diesel" engines have even lower emissions due to the injecting of a urea-based diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) into the exhaust. Yes, having to keep the DEF reservoir refilled does add to the cost of driving - looks like it will be around $0.10 per [-]mile[/-] gallon in my case. But using this exhaust fluid also allows the engine to be tuned differently to provide better power and mileage. If I can believe the manufacturer, the improved mileage using DEF more than offsets the added cost.

 

[Zathras]

Yes, having to keep the DEF reservoir refilled does add to the cost of driving - looks like it will be around $0.10 per [-]mile[/-] gallon in my case. But using this exhaust fluid also allows the engine to be tuned differently to provide better power and mileage. If I can believe the manufacturer, the improved mileage using DEF more than offsets the added cost.

$0.10 per mile??
Is that a typo? 10 cents a mile is the cost of gas for a vehicle that gets 38mpg (at a gas cost of $3.80/gallon).
Even if you have an inefficient vehicle that only gets 13 mpg, you would be going from about 30 cents/mile to 40 cents/mile.

I'd be very surprised at a 33% improvement in mpg. Very pleased, but very surprised

 

[FinanceDude]

This last month and for the next 6 months we are managing quite nicely on foot, bus and train while here in England. We fully expected to hire a car on special occaisions but find the buses and trains are convenient very regular and very affordable.

Mass transit has always made sense in places like England, and Europe as a whole. The countries are much smaller than a lot of states are. In the US, there's a LOT of open space, so mass transit does not work very well except in heavily concentrated metro areas. I would have to drive 10 miles to catch a bus, which would drop me off a mile from work. The nearest train I can catch is 22 miles away............

 

[REWahoo]

$0.10 per mile??
Is that a typo? 10 cents a mile is the cost of gas for a vehicle that gets 38mpg (at a gas cost of $3.80/gallon).
Even if you have an inefficient vehicle that only gets 13 mpg, you would be going from about 30 cents/mile to 40 cents/mile.

I'd be very surprised at a 33% improvement in mpg. Very pleased, but very surprised

Yep a typo. Corrected to $0.10 per mile.

 

[kyounge1956]

(snip) I live on a good route, and can get downtown easily and with little waiting Also to University District and Queen Ann/Seattle Center. But today I wanted to go to the Apple store, probably only 4 miles away at most, and it would have taken 3 buses to get there.(snip)
Ha

Yeah, getting to U Village on the bus is not the easiest thing in the world. I also take a car if the bus route requires 2 changes each way—there's too much chance to miss a connection. You might think about going to the Apple store in Bellevue Square next time. Wouldn't that be a 2-bus trip, one from your home to downtown Seattle, one from downtown Seattle to Bellevue Transit Center, and then a short walk to the mall? It may also be only two buses to other Apple Stores—isn't there one in Alderwood Mall in Lynnwood and another down near Southcenter? Or The Mac Store (on I think 45th, a block east of the freeway) should be easy to get to since the U District is an easy trip.

You're a Mac user—you gotta think outside the box Just 'cos the U Village Apple store is the closest to where you live doesn't necessarily mean it's the fastest one to get to on the bus.

 

[Tiger]

We bought gas a few days ago and paid $4/gal This is in the NYC suburbs.

 

[rescueme]

Purchased gas for the lawn tractor yesterday. I think I'll trade it in for a flock of sheep ...

At least it will give my sheepdogs some exercise...

 

[easysurfer]

So, while surfing I saw the add for the future plug-in Prius

2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid

The interesting thing which makes this practical is the charge times. They claim said it can quick charge using a regular 120V household outlet in 3 hours. If using a 240V outlet, in only 1.5 hours. Plus, since it's not an all EV, it's not charge or get stranded.

 

[ERD50]

So, while surfing I saw the add for the future plug-in Prius

2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid

The interesting thing which makes this practical is the charge times. They claim said it can quick charge using a regular 120V household outlet in 3 hours. If using a 240V outlet, in only 1.5 hours. Plus, since it's not an all EV, it's not charge or get stranded.

Why is this interesting?

I had to dig a little, but the Plug in Prius only gets 13 miles on that charge, before switching to the gas engine (funny how the charge time is right up front, but the range isn't). It's about the same ratio of charge time for miles driven as the Chevy Volt ( 8 hours on regular 120V, and ~ 35 miles on EV mode), which also switches to gasoline power. And the Tesla has about the same ratio - 48 hours for 221 miles. Leaf is about the same (they say 5 miles per hour of charging).

So any of these cars would go 13 miles on a 3 hour charge. They all work with the same principles and same basic efficiencies. Nothing new there.

-ERD50

 

[Zathras]

While I agree about the times, the efficiencies do vary.

The Volt gets just over 3 miles/Kwh
The Tesla gets about 4 miles/Kwh
Not sure about the Leaf

 

[ERD50]

While I agree about the times, the efficiencies do vary.

The Volt gets just over 3 miles/Kwh
The Tesla gets about 4 miles/Kwh
Not sure about the Leaf

I guess I need to ask you to show your work Sure, they vary, but not by much.

There are various numbers published for range and charge times, it depends upon conditions, but from wiki I found:

The VOLT: The EPA found in tests using varying driving conditions and climate controls, the all-electric range averaged 35 miles....

According to General Motors a full charge takes approximately eight hours from a standard North American 120 V, 15 A household outlet...


The Prius Plug-in: The Prius plug-in total all-electric range is 13 mi... and 3 hour charge time.

For the LEAF, I only found a vague reference to ~ 5 miles per hour of charge, but I doubt they have any magic mojo that the others do not, so I'll assume the conditions are not exact.

Tesla is 221 Miles on a 48 Hour charge per wiki.

VOLT: 35/8 = 4.375 Miles/HC

Prius PI: 13/3 = 4.333 Miles/HC

Tesla: 221/48 = 4.604 Miles/HC

I'd bet the Tesla has a better weight ratio being a two seater and better aerodynamics that would account for a 6% better ratio.

I'd assume they are all drawing the same max rated current from that plug, so efficiencies ought to match.

-ERD50

 

[Zathras]

I guess I need to ask you to show your work Sure, they vary, but not by much.

Certainly!
The Volt's electricity usage is 36kwh/100 miles, or .36kwh/mile which is just over 1kwh/3 miles. This is per the EPA's site at Fuel Economy (Mobile).

The data for the Tesla is not immediately available at the same site?
However, Wiki seems to be a good second with references.
According to the most recent reference at Tesla Roadster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (which is August 2008), the EPA range is 244 miles with an efficiency of 28 kwh/100 miles. Just under 1kwh/4 miles.

Using their base measuring stick of kwh/100 miles, gives about a 22% improvement going from the Volt to the Tesla.

 

[chinaco]

The extra direct cost for fuel is only part of the problem... it is the indirect inflation related to everything else that creates a larger problem.

Everything we purchase utilizes crude oil related products either directly for manufacture, for transportation, or both.

However, at a certain level... substitutes will begin to be competitive in certain applications.


I know quite a number of people that rushed out and bought a cheap (huge) truck or suv during the financial crisis when the manufacturers were marking them down... I suppose the wisdom of that decision is being reconsidered!

 

[ERD50]

Certainly!

Using their base measuring stick of kwh/100 miles, gives about a 22% improvement going from the Volt to the Tesla.

I think we need to know more about how these numbers are derived. Or maybe the charge numbers are really round figures? Maybe the charge current tapers off at some point, below 12A (I doubt it, with a 120V source, the current is a small fraction of C)?

Those kw/100 mile figures just don't match the charge time and mile numbers we have. There's some fudge or rounding, or different conditions somewhere.

OTOH, it doesn't matter. Assuming the charge time (if accurate) represents 'full on' for the majority of the charge cycle, then time is energy (and $), and miles per charge time is all that matters to the owner.

Of course, considering the cost of an EV, 10~20% in efficiency in use of that electric current is pretty much a non-issue!

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Everything we purchase utilizes crude oil related products either directly for manufacture, for transportation, or both.

And the biggest source of electricity purchased utilizes coal, which in many ways is 'dirtier' than oil. Not sure that's a 'win'.

-ERD50

 

[almost there]

Nuclear.....

So far, wind / solar etc power is more than 10x as much $$$ to produce as Nuke. Coal, oil, gas is too dirty and $$$
Every one wants it, but know one wants to pay 10x as much for it.
Quite the situation........

BTW Regular is $4.25 where I live.