Help/Advice w/ DW's Employment Situation

[ExFlyBoy5]

To start off, as some of you might know, I am retired and have been for a while now. DW has continued to w*rk even though we are solidly FI and there is no good reason (monetarily) for her to do so. Now...

She has been the real estate business for the last 16 years. She has really enjoyed her j*b up until about a month ago. She is involved in property management for SFHs and works from home (and has done so for about 10 years). Over the years, the company has been merged/acquired by different entities and most recently by a very large company in the field. That is when things started going down hill.

Long story short, her responsibilities now cannot be competently completed in less than 20 hours (or more) a day. They have added and added and added to her workload and complaints to her boss have gone unanswered. As a matter of fact, he went so far as to tell her to not put her issues/complaints in an email I try to be the good DH and offer moral support, but it's tough to not give advice, either. She is being used and she knows it, but won't stop killing herself. I have tried to tell her that these people don't give a damn about her, just that they are getting their money's worth out of her. To add insult to injury, they (institutional investors as of late) can't seem to understand that R/E is local and that every market is different. They only try and apply a single set of rules/circumstances across all markets and this just isn't feasible (and often not legal) but they will not listen to her concerns.

So good folks of ER.org, what can I do to perhaps help the situation along? She has looked at other j*bs, but to make the $$$ she is now, it would require relocation and we are not willing to do that. I wish I could convince her to leave this rat race behind, but I just don't think it's in her blood to retire so early (she's 43 years old).

 

[Lewis Clark]

Perhaps you can convince her to quit the current job, then take her time finding another if she is not ready to stop working. Since you don't need the money she should not feel rushed. She might even decide retiring is better than it looks to her at this point.

 

[OldShooter]

If you're not willing to leave the table, you're not negotiating, you're begging. So that is the first question for her.

If she is willing to leave the table, then an email to this boss is in order. Identify the point (his email, telecon, etc.) where she reached her limit and flip all the additional added workload back to the boss. Tell him she cannot do it.

Then sit back and wait, working up to the limit she has set and no farther. I'd be ready for a verbal threat, which she can respond to in an email documenting the threat and reacting as she chooses. Going forward (if there is a forward) every telecon should be documented in contemporaneous notes and in most cases in a email to the boss again providing her reaction. There is nothing more important in these situations than a strong paper trail. You never know when it will be useful and the boss's simply being aware that it exists may modify his behavior.

The fact that the boss asked her to not complain in emails indicates that he feels vulnerable or feels that the company may be vulnerable in some way. My best guess is that he is afraid that his boss will read her emails and realize that there is a problem with his supervision. Which there is.

 

[REWahoo]

EFB5, your DW's situation is very similar to my DW's work experience. She was 10 years older than your DW, but like her, saw an ever increasing workload (insurance adjuster) with no way to meet her constantly growing and unrealistic workload.

As time went by she grew more and more frustrated and unhappy with her job. I begged her to quit/retire (we were nearing FI and both only 3-4 years from early retirement) but she continued to stick it out. It finally sank in that there was never going to be any relief from the totally unrealistic demands placed on her and she resigned. Life got much better for her - and me.

Bottom line, I couldn't convince her to quit, only offer her encouragement and moral support and emphasize the fact she could leave that job at any time. She had to reach that decision on her own and I suspect that's going to be the same for your DW.

Hope for her sake she gets there soon.

 

[RunningBum]

To start off, as some of you might know, I am retired and have been for a while now. DW has continued to w*rk even though we are solidly FI and there is no good reason (monetarily) for her to do so. Now...

...
She has looked at other j*bs, but to make the $$$ she is now, it would require relocation and we are not willing to do that.

Why is finding a job to make the $$$ she is now even a factor, given that you are FI? Assuming you can't get her to retire, why not try to look for an ideal job and work conditions without regard to how much it pays?

 

[Qs Laptop]

If you're not willing to leave the table, you're not negotiating, you're begging. So that is the first question for her.

If she is willing to leave the table, then an email to this boss is in order. Identify the point (his email, telecon, etc.) where she reached her limit and flip all the additional added workload back to the boss. Tell him she cannot do it.

Then sit back and wait, working up to the limit she has set and no farther. I'd be ready for a verbal threat, which she can respond to in an email documenting the threat and reacting as she chooses. Going forward (if there is a forward) every telecon should be documented in contemporaneous notes and in most cases in a email to the boss again providing her reaction. There is nothing more important in these situations than a strong paper trail. You never know when it will be useful and the boss's simply being aware that it exists may modify his behavior.

The fact that the boss asked her to not complain in emails indicates that he feels vulnerable or feels that the company may be vulnerable in some way. My best guess is that he is afraid that his boss will read her emails and realize that there is a problem with his supervision. Which there is.

Wow, absolutely nailed it!

The only thing I would add is that she might ask for an employee to help her with her work.

 

[jollystomper]

If you're not willing to leave the table, you're not negotiating, you're begging. So that is the first question for her.

Bottom line, I couldn't convince her to quit, only offer her encouragement and moral support and emphasize the fact she could leave that job at any time. She had to reach that decision on her own and I suspect that's going to be the same for your DW.

I agree with these two sentiments. Right now it seems a case of "I hate this situation BUT the money and/or prestige is too good to leave on the table."

Unless she is willing to leave the money and possibly job behind, nothing will change.

The OP can just continue to remind her that they do not need the money and she can leave at any time, even for a lower paying job, and whatever she decides is fine.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

EFB5, your DW's situation is very similar to my DW's work experience. She was 10 years older than your DW, but like her, saw an ever increasing workload (insurance adjuster) with no way to meet her constantly growing and unrealistic workload.

As time went by she grew more and more frustrated and unhappy with her job. I begged her to quit/retire (we were nearing FI and both only 3-4 years from early retirement) but she continued to stick it out. It finally sank in that there was never going to be any relief from the totally unrealistic demands placed on her and she resigned. Life got much better for her - and me.

Bottom line, I couldn't convince her to quit, only offer her encouragement and moral support and emphasize the fact she could leave that job at any time. She had to reach that decision on her own and I suspect that's going to be the same for your DW.

Hope for her sake she gets there soon.

I could have written this myself. I have lots of practical answers, good solutions, even what I would call an easy way out...but none of that works with her. I understand that she needs to come to terms and deal on her own but in all honesty, it's pretty taxing on me and I am not sure how long I can be the supportive husband. I had to fire a contractor today (another story) and I was much more firm (read, "I was an ass") than I needed to be...simply because her frustration is making me more frustrated.

To those offering practical advice, thank you but that's not really what I was looking for. Hell, I am not sure what I am looking for to be honest. They initially had mentioned getting her an assistant, but that hasn't happened as of yet and I doubt they will. I have told her to put hard limits on her work day...if it doesn't get done, the f* 'em...too bad. But, it's the emotional part of trying to deal/help with her emotional side. She isn't wanting practical advice.

If you're not willing to leave the table, you're not negotiating, you're begging. So that is the first question for her.

If she is willing to leave the table, then an email to this boss is in order. Identify the point (his email, telecon, etc.) where she reached her limit and flip all the additional added workload back to the boss. Tell him she cannot do it.

Then sit back and wait, working up to the limit she has set and no farther. I'd be ready for a verbal threat, which she can respond to in an email documenting the threat and reacting as she chooses. Going forward (if there is a forward) every telecon should be documented in contemporaneous notes and in most cases in a email to the boss again providing her reaction. There is nothing more important in these situations than a strong paper trail. You never know when it will be useful and the boss's simply being aware that it exists may modify his behavior.

The fact that the boss asked her to not complain in emails indicates that he feels vulnerable or feels that the company may be vulnerable in some way. My best guess is that he is afraid that his boss will read her emails and realize that there is a problem with his supervision. Which there is.

Yes, the "no email" issue added to the frustration. I told her that she needs to make sure that all of this is documented. I have a distinct feeling that her boss will be let go in short order. His usefulness to the company has been dwindling for a while now, and the writing is on the wall that changes are coming. Ageism is real thing and is quite obvious when you see the age of the senior leadership. I think he is trying anything/everything to cover his own hide in his vain attempt to keep his job.

 

[Koolau]

This is one of those situations where the answer is "obvious" to everyone but the "victim." I'm sure DW is like me - I couldn't "fake it" when I was ordered to do a new assignment. I didn't want to do it, so I quit (FIREd) rather than hang on and hope it got better. Conscientiousness can be a curse. YMMV

 

[RunningBum]

My brother was in a similar situation. His company got bought a few times by investors who were just trying to "pretty up" the numbers so they could sell it at a profit. His job got more and more stressful. More responsibility with less authority over those he needed to do their part. When he went to his boss, who was part of the investment group, the boss agreed with him that his job was impossible, but didn't offer any help. My brother had two times of year where most of the stress came, and decided he wasn't going to be around for the next one. He wasn't totally FI but found a pretty neat part time job working for a friend and his business. He did that for a couple of years, then the guy sold out and the business moved but my brother was set by then and has retired.

Just one data point, but my impression is that when these investment flippers come in, they really don't care how happy people are. The bottom line is all that matters, so they aren't likely to increase expenses. So one way or another she has to take responsibility for her own situation. Either do a reasonable job in a reasonable amount of time and let them deal with the fallout, or resign.

 

[REWahoo]

I understand that she needs to come to terms and deal on her own but in all honesty, it's pretty taxing on me and I am not sure how long I can be the supportive husband.

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from, as "I could have written this myself."

Unfortunately I don't have any "impractical" advice for you - other than encourage you to hang in there.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Just one data point, but my impression is that when these investment flippers come in, they really don't care how happy people are. The bottom line is all that matters, so they aren't likely to increase expenses. So one way or another she has to take responsibility for her own situation. Either do a reasonable job in a reasonable amount of time and let them deal with the fallout, or resign.

No doubt. That is the biggest issue. At one time, the largest portfolio they managed was about 20 SFHs. The latest investor (it's a wall street firm) is buying 100s of properties all over the country. To say it's an absolute s* show would be an understatement. Some of the portfolios are complete, brand new neighborhoods that have never been lived in. I understand it's all about the bottom line and DW knows this...but...

I guess really, I need to come to terms with the fact that she has to deal with this in her own way and I need to just be the supportive husband. I will continue to periodically send her some financial scenarios her way, too.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

When I wanted DH to quit a job rather than accept a transfer to another state, I had a friend who was a certified financial planner sit down with us and go over our finances to convince him to stay and accept a layoff. At the time we weren't FI but not that far off, and my friend convinced him that we would be fine, even if it took him years to find another job.

So maybe try the CFP route to present your case that she doesn't need to work anymore. Also, the antiwork Reddit subreddit is very motivating to not work. They have a lot of memes and articles on corporate greed / worker exploitation, which seems to be what is happening to your wife.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

When I wanted DH to quit a job rather than accept a transfer to another state, I had a friend who was a certified financial planner sit down with us and go over our finances to convince him to stay and accept a layoff. At the time we weren't FI but not that far off, and my friend convinced him that we would be fine, even if it took him years to find another job.

Now that is an excellent idea that I have not thought of. It may not work, but it sure wouldn't hurt. Oh, and I think I might like that sub reddit. Look at the $12/hr bullet... I am sending this to her right now.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

The latest investor (it's a wall street firm) is buying 100s of properties all over the country. To say it's an absolute s* show would be an understatement.

We've gotten three cold call phone messages in two days to buy our Bay Area house for cash. With the price of homes here, this has to be some deep pocket company behind the calls. It is a friendly woman's voice making the calls who just leaves her first name. I think it was Ashley. We just laugh because the calls are designed to have a folksy feel, which undoubtedly means there's some megacorp behind it all.

 

[braumeister]

We've gotten three cold call phone messages in two days to buy our Bay Area house for cash. With the price of homes here, this has to be some deep pocket company behind the calls. It is a friendly woman's voice making the calls who just leaves her first name. I think it was Ashley. We just laugh because the calls are designed to have a folksy feel, which undoubtedly means there's some megacorp behind it all.

Ashley Buys Houses

 

[RetiredHappy]

Simple suggestion... ask her to quit and take a year off. If she still feels like working, then she can start looking for something. If she is willing to do that, chances is that she is not back to work again. That was my story... I didn't think I could stop working but agreed to take a year off. After that year... hell no way I am going back to work.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Now that is an excellent idea that I have not thought of. It may not work, but it sure wouldn't hurt.

DH was outnumbered between me and the CFP. He actually got a new job with the same company in a different department anyway. The employees from his group who accepted the move took a big pay cut, got laid off a year or two after they moved and uprooted their families. The they hard a hard time moving back as they had less money due to their lower salaries, they gave up their Prop 13 property tax basis here and home prices here, but not where they moved to, appreciated in value.

Initially the department moved to a lower cost of living state, then the megacorp moved the department to a cheaper country and they all got laid off. It is always about the bottom line with megacorps. The employees are just assets like trucks and inventory to be moved around and discarded at any time. It really worked out for us, looking out for #1, not so much for the loyal employees that moved.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Ashley Buys Houses

Too funny! She says she is Ashley with We Buy Houses on our messages. Ashley must have test marketed well as a trusting name for gullible sellers.

 

[MRG]

Now that is an excellent idea that I have not thought of. It may not work, but it sure wouldn't hurt. Oh, and I think I might like that sub reddit. Look at the $12/hr bullet... I am sending this to her right now.

+1
The antiwork subreddit is awesome. I haven't worked in 8+ years and in 15 minutes there and I was ready to quit again. Non-pratical advice get her on Reddit.

 

[target2019]

Sounds like someone who needs an assistant who can prepare the 1st draft of resignation letter. I recommend you serve that with a glass of her favorite wine.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

We've gotten three cold call phone messages in two days to buy our Bay Area house for cash. With the price of homes here, this has to be some deep pocket company behind the calls. It is a friendly woman's voice making the calls who just leaves her first name. I think it was Ashley. We just laugh because the calls are designed to have a folksy feel, which undoubtedly means there's some megacorp behind it all.

Most likely not my DW's company. Most of the acquisitions that have been made in the last month are brand new houses and are "rent ready." To the average lay person, it would be very hard to figure out who owns the homes as they are all titled in some form of an obscure out of state LLC (not a real one but in a form like this: "Roswell HSRRV # 13-DV4 GEED2C") that is tied to yet another subsidiaries subsidiary.

It's all wall street money as of late and BlackRock is a huge investor in SFHs (but necessarily the investors my DW is dealing with). I do know that the excel spreadsheet of recently purchased homes is 60 some-odd pages. Here is a recent article that summarizes some of what is going on:

https://slate.com/business/2021/06/blackrock-invitation-houses-investment-firms-real-estate.html

Let’s focus on Invitation Homes, a $21 billion publicly traded company that was spun off from Blackstone, the world’s largest private equity company, in 2017. Invitation Homes operates in 16 cities, with the biggest concentration in Atlanta, where it owns 12,556 houses. (Though that’s not much compared with the 80,000 homes sold in Atlanta each year, Invitation Homes bought 90 percent of the homes for sale in some ZIP codes in Atlanta in the early 2010s.) While normal people typically pay a mortgage interest rate between 2 percent and 4 percent these days, Invitation Homes can borrow money for far less: It’s getting billion-dollar loans at interest rates around 1.4 percent. In practice, this means that Invitation Homes can afford to tack on an extra $5,000 to $20,000 to the purchase price of every home, while getting the house at the same actual cost as a typical homeowner. While Invitation Homes uses a mixture of debt and cash from renters to buy houses, its offers are almost always all cash, which is a big leg up in a competitive market.

 

[Bamaman]

The real estate business is ultra competitive, and there are most likely other locally owned property management firms in town that'd love to have your wife work for them.

The situation reminds me of Johnny Paycheck's popular tune, "Take This Job and Shove It." Sounds fitting in this situation.

 

[jazz4cash]

The real estate business is ultra competitive, and there are most likely other locally owned property management firms in town that'd love to have your wife work for them.



The situation reminds me of Johnny Paycheck's popular tune, "Take This Job and Shove It." Sounds fitting in this situation.

Yup. I bet she could go out on her own as well. Probably lots of property owners needing good management. She maybe knows many of them already. Especially small landlords that want to shift to less hands on. I struggled with convincing DW to fully evaluate the income vs. ALL the requirements of the job. In our case it was a terrible commute. We needed her to be happy and enjoy her work way more than we needed the $$$$. High pressure work situation is not healthy.

 

[stargazer08]

It might take a bit longer but your wife will probably know when she has had enough. It took me 2 years into my current job of 3.5 years to listen to my husband and decide to quit. The work it self is easy peasy. The schedule is another level of insanity that I have finally decided I no longer am willing to tolerate. Being lied to twice by the powers that be in conjunction with the schedule tipped the scale to quit for me. My last day will be December 31st unless they invite me to leave sooner. I haven't decided when to give notice. Maybe December 1st in hopes that they show me to door that same day. LOL