Hot Water Heater Warning

One of the big problems with knowing those things is actually getting that info... I was able to get the age of the AC when I bought the house, and could see the attic insulation (they added blown in), but nobody knew the walls... the windows were easy as they were original (well, should say are as I have only changed out two)....

Actually I believe the builders plates on outside AC units tell the year manufactured here is a web site to determine manfacturing dates from the plates: https://www.nachi.org/forum/f20/hvac-manufacture-dates-174/

Also you can see how big the outside units are since the ratings are on the units.
 
I haven't checked whether it has to meet revised code. But it might not even meet the original code since we replaced the 30+ year old lowboy water heater with a slightly taller one (a "short"??) and had to excavate out a bit. The install was done by me and my father in law (the crazy Cambodian DIY guy and carpenter by trade :) ).

My plumber said there's no way any plumber would install it in the same set up today "because of code". So I assume he knows what he's talking about as he's generally very knowledgeable about other plumbing issues and helped build the houses in our neighborhood 45 years ago. He also doesn't do water heater installs any longer so he's not just trying to drum up expensive business (= no ulterior motive to lie to me).

I figure when it finally gives out I'll call a couple plumbers out and get a quote and see if they can do a simple replacement job for $600 or $1000 or whatever the going rate for a hot water heater replacement is. And if they can simply replace it, perhaps with some inexpensive modifications, I'd be more than happy with a tank unit (and might look into that active anode solution since there's no way to replace the anode rod in mine given lack of clearance, not even collapsible anode rod).

Any idea what it would take to install a hot water heater outside my house? I figured after building an enclosure that meets code I would have spent more than going with a tankless and paying for those modifications required.


It could be that a plumber just does not want the liability... I live in a place where there is no code but was told by my contractor that he could not replace the water heater without a stand because it is not code!!!

But, if the house burned down and it was that water heater you can be sure someone would sue... probably not me but others would...
 
Interesting post. I for one am pro-active with such things. I have them replaced every 8 years even of they don't show any issues etc. I will have a plumber schedule me in and just do it. That is one thing that I would never want to happen especially when I have control of a problem.
Our vacation home is the upstairs unit of a 2 story building. We are strongly encouraged to replace every 8-10 years for that very reason (since our heater could take out two units at once). And, we do.
 
It could be that a plumber just does not want the liability... I live in a place where there is no code but was told by my contractor that he could not replace the water heater without a stand because it is not code!!!

But, if the house burned down and it was that water heater you can be sure someone would sue... probably not me but others would...

I was told that it is code for gas water heaters located in a garage due to auto/lawn mower gasoline fumes possibly being ignited by the pilot light. Putting the heater on a stand raises the pilot light above where heavier than air gasoline fumes hang out. Dunno how accurate that info is....
 
That's common everywhere. I was looking for a house a few years ago and the agents all knew details about the countertops, square footage, and number of bedrooms and bathrooms. Very few of them had any idea how old the furnace or AC unit was, how much insulation was in the ceiling and walls, or how old the windows were.

Part of the problem is that the info on insulation and age of windows is not usually in the public domain. As a Realtor, I have access to (online) assessment data at the county clerks office that describes number of bedrooms, baths and sq. footage and the year the house was built. (I don't guess on this info due to liability). Unless the current owner of the home has given the details of any other updates of the home to the LISTING Realtor, and it is disclosed in writing, there is no way for a BUYER Realtor to know. HVAC guys can usually tell by the numbering on AC/furnances, but most of the time, Realtors do not have that info.

If you are a serious buyer, ask your Realtor to ask the listing Realtor for dates of updates. They should ask the home seller and get back to you.
 
I was told that it is code for gas water heaters located in a garage due to auto/lawn mower gasoline fumes possibly being ignited by the pilot light. Putting the heater on a stand raises the pilot light above where heavier than air gasoline fumes hang out. Dunno how accurate that info is....


Very accurate... when I was young the house across the street burned down because the owner was cleaning stuff with gas in the garage and it went up... I heard it from across the street and call the fire dept...

And yes, it is code IF you live someplace that has a code... I do not, but that does not stop plumbers etc. from following code... I am grateful for them doing so...
 
DD has a furnace and a conventional gas water heater and a washer-dryer on the third floor of her Chicago townhouse built 12 years ago, as do the other approximately 80 units in her development. The AC units are all on the rooftop decks (the third floor opens out onto the deck). Beneath the units is a parking garage. City codes are pretty strict so I have to think there is nothing particularly crazy plumbingwise about this set up.

My uncle out in New England bought a new townhouse that does have a conventional basement and the builder scored a deal on 80 gallon traditional gas water heaters, which are in those basements; my thrifty uncle couldn’t stand the idea of the gas running to keep that much water hot for two people, and switched it out for an on-demand system, also in the basement in the area where that giant tank had been. It works very well and I don’t notice any delay in the hot water reaching the showers.

Our water heater, in our unfinished basement, is near a floor drain. At 11 years old, it might fail soon but so far no probs. I know we will replace it with a similar unit when the time comes.
 
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It could be that a plumber just does not want the liability... I live in a place where there is no code but was told by my contractor that he could not replace the water heater without a stand because it is not code!!!

But, if the house burned down and it was that water heater you can be sure someone would sue... probably not me but others would...

That could be the problem too. Regardless, if I can't find a plumber to actually install a hot water heater and don't want to DIY, I'm stuck. And stuck at the next replacement interval in another 10 years, and on and on.
 
Any idea what it would take to install a hot water heater outside my house?

No idea really, I haven't looked at the applicable code requirements. But here are some considerations:
- Putting a gas water heater outside the building envelope would eliminate or reduce concerns about indoor air quality that these appliances can sometimes cause. No potential for CO poisoning due to negative air pressure in the home, etc.
-Building an outside enclosure for the water heater could give you flexibility to make the space big enough to get a less expensive or more efficient water heater (plenty of insulation, or wrap it yourself with more, etc) . Also, the extra space and access would be an ideal opportunity to put in a PEX "home run" style manifold for the outgoing hot lines to each point of use in your home. A small 3/8" line generally provides all the flow needed by a typical sink or dishwasher, and 1/2" is enough for a shower. The hot water will arrive at the point of use much more quickly through a small, direct line from the WH than it would through a 3/4" main pipe covers most of the distance to the point of use (which is typically how non-PEX systems are laid out).
- Energy concerns: An outside cabinet will transfer less lost heat from the WH to your home--good in the summer, bad in the winter. Also, a "conventional" gas WH in the home uses inside air for combustion and sends a lot of that heated/cooled air from the house up the stack, which costs money. And, the flue/vent hood continually lets air out of the house even when the WH isn't running. If the water heater is outside, it isn't continually leaking your home's air to the outside world. Now, some of these concerns can be reduced by use of a newer-style sealed-combustion WH (they take their combustion air from outside). These sealed combustion WH are considerably more expensive and have more things to go wrong.
- An outside location (with floor sloped to the yard) totally eliminates the big potential for damage to your house when the water heater rusts out. It also could make installation and servicing a lot easier than the a location in a small interior space (you could conceivably make the wall panels removable after detaching a few screws attached to corner posts).
- Cost could vary a LOT depending on the situation (distance from existing lines, steps needed to assure the in and out lines never freeze, aesthetic concerns (need to match the brick of the house? $$$! Happy with some Hardiboard painted to match or complement the house? = cheap).
- Outside cabinet ventilation: If using a conventional gas water heater, you'd need need open louvers at the top and bottom of the cabinet to allow combustion air in. This will obviously mean that the inside of the cabinet will be pretty close to the temperature of the air outside your house, which might complicate the task of assuring the water lines don't freeze, and might make the WH work harder in cold weather. If you used a sealed-combustion WH, >theoretically< the cabinet could be sealed and the temps inside could be kept higher (using an uninsulated shared wall with the house and/or waste heat from the water heater, etc). I do NOT know if this is allowed by code or even a good/safe idea (is venting required to assure any vented/leaked gas can get out before reaching combustible concentrations, etc)

If you go the tankless route, installing a WH outside can be relatively simple. There are tankless units designed to hang on the outside of an exterior wall, no need to build an enclosure, etc. You'd still need to assure the lines to the WH don't freeze, which could be tough in some places. But a tankless heater has it's own issues (cost, complexity/reliability, possible need to upgrade the gas and esp electrical service). Also, in places subject to possible loss of water/electrical/gas service, having 50 gallons of potable and (initially) hot water constantly available in a home can be a very handy thing.

So, definitely consult with somebody knowledgeable before pressing ahead. I have no expertise in this.
 
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Our gas fired hot water tank is 10 years old. We are thinking of replacing it with on demand hot water. Just the two of us and we are away four months of the year.

Cannot seem to get many positive recommendations for on demand yet I read that they are greatly improved over the past few years. I have heard that there were issues in the past but I am uncertain if these pertain to older technology units or underspecced units.

Anyone install a unit in the past two years....and one that is the the right flow level to meet their needs? Happy or not so much?
 
No idea really, I haven't looked at the applicable code requirements. But here are some considerations:
(snip)

I'm looking for a turnkey installation from a contractor(s), so I'm guessing it'll end up costing significantly more to build a code-meeting, semi-aesthetically pleasing outbuilding or lean-to or similar type structure at the rear of my house vs. the $2300-ish to install a tankless. It would be in the crawlspace or hanging from the back of the house right next to the existing water/gas connections. The price of me being lazy :)

If you go the tankless route, installing a WH outside can be relatively simple. There are tankless units designed to hang on the outside of an exterior wall, no need to build an enclosure, etc. You'd still need to assure the lines to the WH don't freeze, which could be tough in some places. But a tankless heater has it's own issues (cost, complexity/reliability, possible need to upgrade the gas and esp electrical service). Also, in places subject to possible loss of water/electrical/gas service, having 50 gallons of potable and (initially) hot water constantly available in a home can be a very handy thing.

We're in North Carolina and this is the first time we've had 4+ days in a row where temps never got above freezing. The water heater would hang from the back of house with direct sun exposure 75% of the day (south facing, no trees). Night time might be a problem if the bricks on the house don't radiate heat all night (and we don't lose enough heat from the inside). We rarely lose power (underground utils in the city, near a commercial section of the grid, near a substation) nor water (city water) nor gas (nat gas). It is nice though the last time the water heater died, to be able to finish the showers with warm-ish water then initiate repairs :)

The tankless units I'm looking at run fine on 1/2" gas service which is what I have I believe we have. I haven't considered the electrical needs. If it's a drop from a 15A circuit and that's it, that's pretty feasible (within 3-5'). If I go with external WH it'll be way easier to access for maintenance vs. the current install in a crawlspace.
 
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+1. And likewise for these new (holding tank) water heaters that allow you to communicate with them via wifi. What is it gonna tell me?

It may not tell you anything.

But criminals may use it to hack your home wifi and get into your devices. Often these wifi enabled 'things' are not strong on security to start with and don't get updated as security holes are discovered.

I would be leary of wifi connected water heaters unless one gets a huge benefit from it. For example, the one in your second home texts you when it discovers it's leaking.
 
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......

Attic installs of heating and air conditioning systems is also a common practice but rarely causes problems. A/C system condensation does occasionally leak, usually because the primary drain has clogged. All the attic installations I've seen include a secondary drain system comprised of a large drip pan underneath the unit with a separate drain. Often this secondary drain outlet is placed somewhere conspicuous (ours is a small pipe poking through the ceiling of our front porch) so you will see the drip and know there is a problem with the primary drain system.

Our Home is unique. We have a horizontal air handler for A/C in our utility room, which is located on the 2nd level of a raised ranch. When we replaced that A/C last year, they installed the above mentioned drip pan without a drain. (I could install a drain if I desired). There is a float level in that drip pan that will shut down the A/C if it starts to collect water. Just thought I'd add this as another safety method for A/C condensate.
 
Our Home is unique. We have a horizontal air handler for A/C in our utility room, which is located on the 2nd level of a raised ranch. When we replaced that A/C last year, they installed the above mentioned drip pan without a drain. (I could install a drain if I desired). There is a float level in that drip pan that will shut down the A/C if it starts to collect water. Just thought I'd add this as another safety method for A/C condensate.

You're saying your AC doesn't have a condensate drain at all? We collect the condensation in buckets to water plants and get 10-15 gallons in a typical summer day. Where does all your condensation go? :D
 
You're saying your AC doesn't have a condensate drain at all? We collect the condensation in buckets to water plants and get 10-15 gallons in a typical summer day. Where does all your condensation go? :D
No, there is the built-in drain in the air-handler, which drains directly to our house plumbing drain. There is a separate plastic drip-pan directly below the air-handler. It is an optional accessory, used only as a safety if the air-handler's drain becomes clogged or otherwise does not perform its intended purpose.

That has the provision for a drain but it is capped off. It is in this, that the float is installed. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 
No, there is the built-in drain in the air-handler, which drains directly to our house plumbing drain. There is a separate plastic drip-pan directly below the air-handler. It is an optional accessory, used only as a safety if the air-handler's drain becomes clogged or otherwise does not perform its intended purpose.

That has the provision for a drain but it is capped off. It is in this, that the float is installed. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Ok, gotcha. Just curious. Things like the refrigerator don't have a condensate drain at all and simply evaporate from the latent heat in the coils. Wasn't sure how that would work in a whole house AC though :)

So the drain pan is an overflow/safety feature to catch the condensate if the main drain clogs. Makes perfect sense.
 
Anyone install a unit in the past two years....and one that is the the right flow level to meet their needs? Happy or not so much?

We live in a townhome in a 27 unit complex. The units are 3 to 7 years old. With the first units built 7 years ago (ours being one) the developer installed a "Rianni" on demand hot water heaters then switch to "Navien" in the newer units. It seems that we along with other homeowners with the Rianni experienced no problems but the folks with the Navien have had numerous service calls on their units. Our hot water supply has been sufficient even with multiple appliances running at the same time.
 
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No, there is the built-in drain in the air-handler, which drains directly to our house plumbing drain. There is a separate plastic drip-pan directly below the air-handler. It is an optional accessory, used only as a safety if the air-handler's drain becomes clogged or otherwise does not perform its intended purpose.

That has the provision for a drain but it is capped off. It is in this, that the float is installed. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
That drip pan is a >great< place to put a water alarm. They are cheap and will sound off if there's ever water in the pan. Without it you'd have to guess as to why the AC stopped running when the float switch was trggered, and if the float switch fails, you have water on your first-floor ceiling. It would be a belt-and-suspenders step, but since the (backup) drip pan doesn't now have a drain line, it is probably worth doing.
 
One more opinion:

Are tankless water heaters worth the extra cost? - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

The DOE computes average annual operating costs of $388 for a storage-tank heater, and $272 for a tankless heater. That's $116 less. If the tankless system costs $2,200 installed, and saves $116 a year, it would take about 19 years to break even on the investment. If the new tankless system replaced an Energy-Star storage-tank heater (its operating costs are $360 a year), it would take about 25 years to break even. Anytime, but particularly when money is tight, saving $116 starting about 20 years from now is not high on most homeowners' lists.

IMHO, Tankless in the USA (not countries with much higher energy costs) is more of a convenience issue for homes that use a lot of hot water, than a money saving issue.
 
IMHO, Tankless in the USA (not countries with much higher energy costs) is more of a convenience issue for homes that use a lot of hot water, than a money saving issue.

I'll probably go tankless due to site constraints, but not for cost savings. We only pay $10/month or less during most of the year for the natural gas required to keep the water warm. That probably goes up to $20-25/month when the intake water cools significantly during winter (and the ambient temperature drops slightly under the house where the water heater is).

At $150-200/yr for water heating, we just don't spend much on nat gas. Reducing that by 50% or so wouldn't be enough to pay for higher tankless costs up front or on a recurring basis (assuming periodic replacement and higher repair costs if it breaks due to more complexity).

And that math includes 5 of us in the house, 3 of which are female and 2 of those females are almost teenagers. Singing in the shower to the latest pop hits requires lengthy showers with lots of hot water. Soooo glad natural gas is cheap. If only our water was cheap!
 
And that math includes 5 of us in the house, 3 of which are female and 2 of those females are almost teenagers. Singing in the shower to the latest pop hits requires lengthy showers with lots of hot water. Soooo glad natural gas is cheap.

That sounds like the house I grew up in! At the time the water heater was the only natural gas appliance we had. Parents, me, and two sisters, and around 1964-68 I remember Dad complaining loudly about the absurdity of a $15 gas bill for hot water.
 
It is not just 50 gallons...... the amount of water leaked could be virtually infinite if you aren't there to shut off the water supply immediately. We had a pressure tank fail about 45 minutes after returning home once. Had it failed while we were gone....the well pump can provide a lot of water!

All I can say is it was lucky that you had caught it in time.

Yep, I came home one day to a wet front porch. The water heater was in the closet in front of the condo, and it was leaking continuously. Luckily, It just ran off onto the flowerbed. If it had been indoors, it could have been much worse. My neighbor's water heater lasted 3 years longer than mine....so, if it's in a place that can cause water damage, a conservative replacement schedule should be in order, as they usually fail with no warning!
 
I had a hot water heater, but then I realized it was a total waste of money. Why heat water that's already hot?

So, I got a cold water heater and never looked back. ;)
 
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