Ignorant Spouse

[chinaco]

...

I suspect that when either of us dies, sorting things out will still be a king size PITA.

Narrowing down the issue to the property and finances.

Yes, it will be a PITA. But unless you have a really complicated financial situation... it can be dramatically simplified with some basic planning.


One can get as fancy as they want with estate planning... but approaches like joint tenancy with right of survivorship and designating asset transfer using beneficiary can be useful.

Of course, there is some administrative work. But you can prepare for that by getting information together and using an instruction list.


However, one should consult with a qualified estate attorney to craft their estate plan. The laws are different from state to state... so broad generalizations may not be relevant in certain states.

 

[Midpack]

Allow me to throw a [-]cold bucket of water[/-] piece of reality in both your directions. Forgive me in advance if I am too blunt, but here it is...

I was suddenly widowed at age 46. If I had not known the complete status of our financial affairs, I would have been in a position of complete fiscal helplessness. In this day and age, there is simply no excuse for that, for either the husband or wife.

Your other choice is to hire an outsider to [-]overcharge and churn[/-] manage the estate and finances. Be very careful about what is wished for.

I don't disagree, but how do you interest a spouse who doesn't like "numbers?" DW is more aware of the risks than almost anyone you know, but she still isn't interested. I have simplified our portfolio and it's all in one place, so it could not be easier to manage. After 31 years married, that's all I know to do. Cold bucket to you...

 

[REWahoo]

... how do you interest a spouse who doesn't like "numbers?" DW is more aware of the risks than almost anyone you know, but she still isn't interested. I have simplified our portfolio and it's all in one place, so it could not be easier to manage.

+1

All I can do now, is get the finances set up as simply and well documented as I can, and accept that it won't be perfect.

+1

In this day and age, there is simply no excuse for that, for either the husband or wife.

-2

Walk a while in our moccasins and you'll find there are all sorts of excuses - not necessarily good ones, but we're talking quantity here, not quality. It may be that all of us posting on the subject lack the necessary skills to motivate our spouses to get interested in finances and investments but looking at this thread I'm hearing the same story over and over so I suspect it goes beyond that. I see it as another manifestation of why there are so few of us "E-R" types around - many human beans just aren't interested in the financial side of life.

Why is that? See my sig...

 

[Bestwifeever]

I don't disagree, but how do you interest a spouse who doesn't like "numbers?" DW is more aware of the risks than almost anyone you know, but she still isn't interested. I have simplified our portfolio and it's all in one place, so it could not be easier to manage. After 31 years married, that's all I know to do. Cold bucket to you...

Same here--also I think about how some of us leave our w*rk jobs very conscientiously with lots of documentation about how tasks are done and setting up "smooth transition" paths for our successors, who often then come in, never look at it, put all the documentation in a file drawer, and do it their own way anyway. DH knows the numbers but doesn't want the details, but he will do it when he needs to and will figure it out and maybe he'll handle the finances completely differently.

 

[haha]

Walk a while in our moccasins and you'll find there are all sorts of excuses - not necessarily good ones, but we're talking quantity here, not quality. It may be that all of us posting on the subject lack the necessary skills to motivate our spouses to get interested in finances and investments but looking at this thread I'm hearing the same story over and over so I suspect it goes beyond that. I see it as another manifestation of why there are so few of us "E-R" types around - many human beans just aren't interested in the financial side of life.

Why is that? See my sig...

I am no longer married, but I was married long enough to know that a quick route to unfun is to try to change a spouse in any direction at all. She (or he) may sometime say to you, "My hairdresser told me, or I read in Vogue... that I need to know about finances..." oh really, gosh, I never would even have thought of talking about that stuff! ...

I think responsibility ends where indifference begins. He or she will cope one way or another if this ever comes to pass, and to me anyway the main job of the dead partner is to have left some fond memories and smiles.

Ha

 

[ziggy29]

My wife knows very little about financial planning, though I wish it were otherwise. I keep and maintain a "what to do if I'm hit by a bus" list of accounts, phone numbers and other information about our financial accounts (bank accounts, investments, insurance and so on). with instructions on what to do to get my individual assets transferred into her name as well as rough recommendations about how to invest it. Not perfect, but short of her suddenly desiring to know more about it, it'll do for now.

 

[freebird5825]

I don't disagree, but how do you interest a spouse who doesn't like "numbers?" DW is more aware of the risks than almost anyone you know, but she still isn't interested. I have simplified our portfolio and it's all in one place, so it could not be easier to manage. After 31 years married, that's all I know to do. Cold bucket to you...

I knew my post was provocative, and I gladly accept the cold bucket back.
What is that old adage...you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink ?

Some of the other posters here have indicated they have a 3rd party (relative or professional) lined up to assist.
I watched ex-dh2b's mother have her account churned over and over, on a quarterly basis, obviously for the commissions. Her response to [-]what I thought were[/-] my helpful questions about the money management fees, the expense ratios and the necessity to have constant selling/buying activity going on, was
"Well, my late husband trusted them and so will I." Argh.

I really had to clamp my teeth shut, but I was smart enough to drop the conversation right then and there.

 

[calmloki]

Ignorant Spouse?

Let them know.

One or the other of the two words in the title may soon become not true, solving the problem.

 

[Bestwifeever]

....I watched ex-dh2b's mother have her account churned over and over, on a quarterly basis, obviously for the commissions. Her response to [-]what I thought were[/-] my helpful questions about the money management fees, the expense ratios and the necessity to have constant selling/buying activity going on, was
"Well, my late husband trusted them and so will I." Argh.

I really had to clamp my teeth shut, but I was smart enough to drop the conversation right then and there.

Your ex-dh2b (I love that term, FB )'s mother was just doing what her DH had set up--she familiarized herself with their finances and continued doing it that way after his death. This is a new can of worms, where maybe a different way of handling finances would be better.

 

[freebird5825]

Your ex-dh2b (I love that term, FB )'s mother was just doing what her DH had set up--she familiarized herself with their finances and continued doing it that way after his death. This is a new can of worms, where maybe a different way of handling finances would be better.

ex-dh2b it is a classic combination, isn't it ?

In this case, this lady did NOT familiarize herself, she just let the company make decisions for her and she signed off on the frequent trade paperw*rk as it was presented. One of her daughters had PoA, but she was not at all savvy about these things. The daughter didn't even know what the fee structure was, and never asked, as far as I knew.
I had to back off...nobody in the immediate family was interested in upsetting the apple cart.
I cringe to think about how much was sucked out of the accounts that were so carefully built up by her late husband to make sure she was provided for after his passing.

 

[harley]

Allow me to throw a [-]cold bucket of water[/-] piece of reality in both your directions. Forgive me in advance if I am too blunt, but here it is...

I was suddenly widowed at age 46. If I had not known the complete status of our financial affairs, I would have been in a position of complete fiscal helplessness. In this day and age, there is simply no excuse for that, for either the husband or wife.

Your other choice is to hire an outsider to [-]overcharge and churn[/-] manage the estate and finances. Be very careful about what is wished for.

I strongly disagree with this. I don't see how not being aware of every nuance of your financial situation would have left you "helpless". Yes, it would have been one more thing to deal with during a difficult time, but that's not the same as helpless.

DW doesn't like math, and is only somewhat aware of the day to day workings of our finances. But she's damned smart and capable, and with the cushion of insurance money and/or cash in our accounts would have plenty of time to get a handle on how she would deal with [-]our[/-] her finances moving forward. I've given her some instructions/explainations in a death document, but what she ends up doing I don't know. Nor will I care, being dead and all. She'll manage. Actually, in the grand scheme of things I doubt it will be her biggest issue. Hopefully, the grief of losing me will be much more difficult to deal with. Or maybe not.

 

[TromboneAl]

OK, here's what you do. Have an envelope that say "Open this if I am dead." Inside, have a sheet of paper that says

"I TOLD you you should have learned more about the finances."

 

[REWahoo]

Hopefully, the grief of losing me will be much more difficult to deal with. Or maybe not.

Looks like T-Al has found a way to insure the latter is the case...

 

[HatePayingTaxes]

Try having your wife listen to Dave Ramsey. There are some things I don't agree with but, in general, he's pretty good for basic stuff and to give motivation. My wife has no interest in money issues but, ever since she started listening to him, she would have questions here and there and we would talk about it, which leads to other subjects.

 

[Moemg]

She'll manage. Actually, in the grand scheme of things I doubt it will be her biggest issue. Hopefully, the grief of losing me will be much more difficult to deal with. Or maybe not.

Of course she will manage and absolutely the grief is the hardest part of the whole loss but the grief puts you in a fog which is hard to describe . Things you were capable of doing you have a hard time with for about a year . So really the most important thing that she has to know is where the bills are and where does the stream of money come and what does she have to do to make it continue . The rest she will have plenty of time to figure out .

 

[brett]

We have a good accountant, a good financial advisor, good asset base and income stream, and an up to date will. Once I am gone, the rest will be down to common sense and moving forward.

 

[freebird5825]

I strongly disagree with this. I don't see how not being aware of every nuance of your financial situation would have left you "helpless". Yes, it would have been one more thing to deal with during a difficult time, but that's not the same as helpless.

No problem...we can agree to disagree.

What I meant by "fiscally helpless" (not incompetent) is that without "a priori" knowledge of the financial accounts and whether they are JTWROS registrations or not, passwords for online access, or a reasonable roadmap to follow, it will be extremely difficult to wade through the financial part while making arrangements, trying to sleep, trying to eat, taking calls from friends and relatives, and generally trying to keep your mind focused.

Moe describes the "fog" and that is exactly what happens. Even the most competent person will not be clicking on all 8 cylinders. It passes, but it is real and it does happen. BTDT

 

[SteveL]

I've been working on updating my "After I'm gone" letter, and in the process learned something interesting about my Schwab Bank Bill Pay service. Because it is a joint account, DW and I both have our own log on ID and Pword. She never uses hers, but she had to have one because she inherited an IRA. Anyway, using my access to the bank, I have set up paying virtually all our billers, with account numbers and addresses. When I looked at the service through her access, there was nothing there. Turns out that all bill pay services are set up the same way with a single SSAN controlling access to the service.

I then called Schwab and asked how she could get access if I was out of action. Well, they said she could continue to use my access. I responded that once she sent in a death notice, wouldn't my access disappear? The answer was unclear. I need to call back today and see what they say. I have this impression that once a death occurs, the bank (once told) freezes the account. This would be a major roadblock for DW.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Yes, once they are notified of your death, they will freeze the accounts.
I would recommend not notifying them of the death until the living spouse has drawn any short-term cash needs from it.
Typically I see people wait anywhere from a few weeks to a month or more before sending in the official documents--the death certificate and affidavit of domicile at Schwab, then the account changes are processed: IRAs to beneficiaries, JTWROS to individual, etc.

 

[harley]

No problem...we can agree to disagree.

What I meant by "fiscally helpless" (not incompetent) is that without "a priori" knowledge of the financial accounts and whether they are JTWROS registrations or not, passwords for online access, or a reasonable roadmap to follow, it will be extremely difficult to wade through the financial part while making arrangements, trying to sleep, trying to eat, taking calls from friends and relatives, and generally trying to keep your mind focused.

Moe describes the "fog" and that is exactly what happens. Even the most competent person will not be clicking on all 8 cylinders. It passes, but it is real and it does happen. BTDT

I understand. BTDT myself, with parents and their finances. As bad as that was, I'm sure losing a spouse would be orders of magnitudes worse. That's why I said that there needs to be plenty of cash available, preferably a couple of years worth. With that and a decent letter listing bills, accounts, passwords, etc, there would be time to find your way out of the fog.

I can't imagine leaving a financially uninterested spouse without a good cash buffer and an excellent death letter. That would be devastating and cruel. But since we're set up for that IMO she can continue on with her interests and I'll deal with the finances until circumstances force a change. Not to say she has no clue what's going on, but she's definitely not interested in the day to day workings.

 

[donheff]

I've... learned something interesting about my Schwab Bank Bill Pay service. Because it is a joint account, DW and I both have our own log on ID and Pword. She never uses hers, . When I looked at the service through her access, there was nothing there. Turns out that all bill pay services are set up the same way with a single SSAN controlling access to the service.

Argggh. I forgot about that. DW has access to all the money so it isn't the end of the world. But I have a lot of automatic bill paying setup. That would all end. And the accounts we pay be regular checks would disappear so she would have to set them all up again. I will write the bank and see what - if anything - they can do about it.

 

[FinanceDude]

Yes, once they are notified of your death, they will freeze the accounts.
I would recommend not notifying them of the death until the living spouse has drawn any short-term cash needs from it.
Typically I see people wait anywhere from a few weeks to a month or more before sending in the official documents--the death certificate and affidavit of domicile at Schwab, then the account changes are processed: IRAs to beneficiaries, JTWROS to individual, etc.

Set up all accounts with a TOD on them and they can't be locked. JTWROS is ok but many times causes problems. If a TOD is involved with a spouse, the bank or brokerage HAS to release funds..........

 

[donheff]

Set up all accounts with a TOD on them and they can't be locked. JTWROS is ok but many times causes problems. If a TOD is involved with a spouse, the bank or brokerage HAS to release funds..........

TOD?

 

[TromboneAl]

Temple of Doom or Transfer on Death.

 

[donheff]

Does a TOD transfer the account or just access? If the later, can they be set up on IRAs and 401Ks or just regular accounts?