Looking for Perspective Regarding College

[Golden sunsets]

I appreciate it but I think he's been mulling over the decision of which field in engineering. It's taken him over a year to narrow it down to computer and chemical engineering (third choice would be bio-medical) as he's done the research and learned more about what they do on a the day-to-day basis, pay scales, field growth, etc. I always though aerospace engineering would be such an interesting field but hasn't shown any interest.

Jt. I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with the way you are micromanaging this process. Perhaps you should back off a bit. I can't help but think your son must feel your angst over a decision that Should ultimately be his. Not every kid knows what his major should be at the end of junior year in high school. You seem impatient for him to choose a major and choose a school based on its reputation for that major. Frankly I think that is unrealistic.

Another red flag for me is your statement that you will only pay for a private school if it is an Ivy, or near Ivy. My cousin made statements like that to his son, a top student and it was a disaster. His statement implied at least indirectly that anything less than this group of schools were subpar, including the state schools being considered. Let your boy breath, enjoy his senior year and make some of these decisions on his own.

 

[jt999]

Some Thoughts...

He sent me a list of 12 schools that he provided (it included Northeastern, Boston U., some State Schools + some of the previous schools I mentioned) and wanted me to take a look at to check admission dates, cost, etc. I have asked him to add 1 school to the list - University of, Delaware (OOS for us). If he wants to check it out, we'll check it out. We've never visited a school he was not curious about or interested in learning more about. It is and will be his decision, ultimately. His criteria for narrowing his list is looking at rankings of different programs, visiting the campus, talking to other students/alumni, etc., looking at the employers that recruit the school, so I try to put it in the same terms for him. I do try to raise his level of awareness if I find something notable but to be honest, what I am posting here and what I talk about with him, are quite different. There will be some bursts of activity here and there as he goes through the application process (as every student goes through) but really, it's pretty low-key in our household. College choice is not something we talk about all that much. As I said earlier, I'll support him financially and in every other way, with his decision. There are really no bad choices - there are only good choices. I said earlier that I budgeted for cost of attendance somewhere between state and private so he'll go wherever he wants, upon acceptance. Honestly, I would be happy if he went to a State School (even if OOS). Ivy is a reach.

Jt. I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with the way you are micromanaging this process. Perhaps you should back off a bit. I can't help but think your son must feel your angst over a decision that Should ultimately be his. Not every kid knows what his major should be at the end of junior year in high school. You seem impatient for him to choose a major and choose a school based on its reputation for that major. Frankly I think that is unrealistic.

Another red flag for me is your statement that you will only pay for a private school if it is an Ivy, or near Ivy. My cousin made statements like that to his son, a top student and it was a disaster. His statement implied at least indirectly that anything less than this group of schools were subpar, including the state schools being considered. Let your boy breath, enjoy his senior year and make some of these decisions on his own.

 

[Golden sunsets]

Good enough. I'm glad you aren't conveying the level of intensity that you are on this forum. FWIW we took each of our children on a college tour, during spring break of their junior year all over the east coast. We also made an early fall trip to Chicago to visit U of Chicago and Northwestern. Each child had an immediate reaction to each of the schools we visited. A school was either on the Apply list or the Cull list. Each kid instantly knew which school they wanted to attend by the end of the tour. There was a similarity between the schools they liked in that they were large schools in cities; that I attribute to the fact that they were graduating from a very competitive but small non diverse high school in a small town. They each applied ED and were accepted, so the process was over by Christmas. They each had their list of schools to apply to if they had not been accepted ED. Each child did well at their University. There is so much more to school than the academics. It is a time of exploring, socializing and maturing. Neither child now practices in their major field. DD never practiced in her major. DS who graduated Suma from an Ivy in a non STEM major, traveled the world for 2 years and went back to get an MA in a completely different STEM field. Both kids are killing it in their jobs now. They are extremely hard workers. Their college careers were during the mid 2000's. I estimate the cost for the two undergraduate degrees back then at $400,000. including tuition room board and incidentals. And believe me those incidentals add up, like flights home for holidays and vacations. In retrospect, we would do it the same way all over again.

 

[bookman51]

Hi - I am 48 and my spouse is 46. Our son is 17 and is a top notch student. He has really worked his tail off and he has the academic stats to get into just about any university, including some Ivies.

He's primarily interested in some different areas of engineering for undergrad (has not made up his mind exactly) as he's very gifted in the STEM domain but he is also very interested in business. He also has his own brokerage account and he's learned a lot (with some of my advice) about personal finance/investing.

I'm trying to provide him with guidance - My wife and I believe that an engineering undergrad is the best way to go as he can always get his MBA if and when he wants to transition into different roles or management.

I'm finding it incredibly frustrating that none of the Ivies we've looked at offer any type of Merit Awards. They are all needs-based - is that correct? At 400K annual income (thanks to 40% increase in the last couple years), it's a slam dunk that we will not qualify for ANY type of financial assistance.

So, how do you steer your child who has worked so hard to look at universities that offer more merit based scholarships so attending school does not put my wife and I OR him in the poor house? I want college to be a challenging and enriching experience for him but also want to make the decision that leaves us all on sound financial footing. I don't think I can stomach ~300K for a 4 year degree (and heaven help us if it's a 5 year program) and I don't want him saddled with loans (under any circumstance). We do have a sizable amount saved in 529 but still have a very significant gap.

I feel very conflicted. It was always our goal to help both our kids obtain a marketable undergrad degree (1 down, 1 to go) but the numbers this round are staggering. In a sense, I want him to be able to go to college wherever he wants (as we believe he's earned it) but also want the price tag to be doable for all of us (and by doable, I don't mean the admission's office ability to pay). It will also likely derail any dreams of FIRE'ing in 4-5 years.


I would appreciate any advice or perspective (even better, if it's from folks who have gone through before). Thank You.

By the time you are looking at the Ivy League schools you are competing with the best of the best academically. At that point, the Ivy League schools are selecting rather than recruiting. As good as your son is, unless he really is super unusual, there are thousands like him competing for the hundreds of spaces at the Ivy League schools. Often times they are looking for particular skills, such as someone playing a particular musical instrument, or looking for diversity (and I do not mean necessarily race....it could be someone not from a prep school in the New England area), etc. At that level there are often many other factors than just being a very good student. So, what else does he have to offer besides being a very good student? I spent my career in higher education, and I am a firm believer that the education one obtains is largely up to the individual and be found at a variety of schools. Someone mentioned connections at the Ivy League schools, and I would say yes. Connections may get one in the door but not necessarily promotes one to the top. Good luck

 

[bonvoyage]

To the OP: f you haven't already done so, you need to immediately sign up for the forums on the College Confidential website. There is a tremendous amount of focused tactical information available there about the college admissions process and financial aid. The people on this forum have generally given good advice and are well meaning but this is all based on obsolete information for the most part.

We have been saving for our kids college education from the very moment they were born. I wonder about people with young kids who are planning to FIRE at a really young age - do they have any idea how expensive college education has become.

 

[steveark]

I'm an engineer as are two of my three kids. Even though I made similar money to you my kids all got free rides for their degrees by choosing the state university. Ivy league means little in the stem world.

 

[bonvoyage]

I'm an engineer as are two of my three kids. Even though I made similar money to you my kids all got free rides for their degrees by choosing the state university. Ivy league means little in the stem world.

I completely agree about engineering but this is not true of the other sciences. For example, a computer science degree from say MIT or Stanford will position you way ahead of a candidate from a decent state school. I have done a lot of college recruiting among computer science students all over the US and I can absolutely say that the students from top schools are far better prepared

It's the same story in fields like biology and chemistry. You can absolutely get ahead with a degree from a state school but the opportunities in a top science school are in different league

 

[zippy2020]

Colleges are staggeringly expensive, aren't they? I sympathize; everyone we know with kids has struggled with this issue.

One piece of advice: many of the "name" schools are better utilized for graduate degrees. A friend of ours found far higher value in getting her undergrad degree at the (very well known and respected) state university, but selecting Harvard for her MBA.

She worked for several years for a Fortune 500 corp before going back to school, and later said the contacts she made while getting her MBA were far more "solid" in being useful for her career than if she had gone to an IVY for her undergrad degree.

Just a general suggestion as she wasn't in a STEM field. Good luck to you and your son!

 

[edcarver1]

Best schools are the ones that fit the student

I told my sons the best colleges are the one you finish. In other words, they need to fit where they go. I've experienced way too many students who went to the "best" schools only to drop out because they felt unsupported. Two of the best engineering schools that are not over priced, but mostly overlooked are Montana Tech (Previously School of Mines) and South Dakota School of Mines. Both are small, and geared towards the student's success and have tremendous success rates. Both schools will allow you to meet with the department chair, not just some recruiter. Better than 90% job rates with high salaries too.

Best of Luck, Ed

 

[WWDog]

I only read the first two replies so my response may be somewhat out of the current conversation. I went to a state engineering school for my undergraduate degree that had a good reputation for academics and was very affordable. I graduated with zero bills and I did not rely heavily on my parents for money. I had enough money saved to pay for room and board plus tuition for two years. I got a scholarship for the last two years. I graduated with no bills or loans. Smaller schools with good reputations can provide education just as valuable in undergraduate work as many larger schools and may even provide a more rewarding experience. If your son has good marks and test scores he may even be able to get a full ride. Most undergraduate classes are the same as the larger colleges with more personal touch. Some smaller state technical oriented colleges will be a great choice to get your feet on the ground. There are many distractions associated with larger schools and less interaction with the professors particularly in undergraduate work. I hesitate to mention my where I went to get my undergraduate degree because you don't want a recommendation from an alum who may be tainted with pride for his undergraduate school.

 

[HMMY]

We had saved $250k/child when I retired early last year. My 15-year-old's first question is how will I pay for school. I told him that we had saved enough that he could go wherever he could get in (not knowing that his first choice is $80k/yr). We told the children that whatever $ is left over is theirs after college graduation and two years of off the parental payroll. I told him that he may want to go to a second tier school with scholarship and save those funds for grad school or to buy a home. If he gets into his first choice and goes there, we will have to sell some stock and cash flow the difference.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I'm an engineer as are two of my three kids. Even though I made similar money to you my kids all got free rides for their degrees by choosing the state university. Ivy league means little in the stem world.

I used to do most of the tech recruiting and hiring coordination at a Bay Area megacorp years ago and only one of the hiring managers, one who had an MBA from an Ivy league school, ever even looked at school when we would go over resumes.

The 30 colleges with the most alums at top tech companies -
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/28/the-30-colleges-with-the-most-alums-at-top-tech-companies.html. University of Washington is #1, San Jose State in #6, and University of Phoenix clocks in at #17.

 

[RS53576GG]

Here's another approach to keep in mind. Doing the first year or two at a community college isn't a bad way to go. Some people find it beneficial to go to a community college for a while and get up to speed on being a student and then transfer to a 4 year school to finish up. There's nothing wrong with this and more than a few things that are right with it. (Friendlier environment, less expensive, possibly less pressure from parents to succeed, professors who can actually teach, etc.) The four year college hands out the same diploma regardless of where a student spent first year or two.

I agree with those who observed that where a person went to school appears to have little or no effect on their ability to be successful engineers. I've seen many cases where people from a top tier university who had good grades never quite found their feet as engineers. These people could survive in a less demanding work environment but in a place that is doing challenging and difficult things they were usually tossed out when the next layoff came around. Meanwhile there's an engineer in a neighboring cubical who went to the local state college and had average grades who continues to crank out good work year after year after year. The only way that person will be laid off is when the company goes out of business.

 

[LOL!]

[...]
I agree with those who observed that where a person went to school appears to have little or no effect on their ability to be successful engineers. I've seen many cases where people from a top tier university who had good grades never quite found their feet as engineers. These people could survive in a less demanding work environment but in a place that is doing challenging and difficult things they were usually tossed out when the next layoff came around. Meanwhile there's an engineer in a neighboring cubical who went to the local state college and had average grades who continues to crank out good work year after year after year. The only way that person will be laid off is when the company goes out of business.

I think your anecdote is more about the kind of people that your company attracts. In particular, it seems that your engineers like to work in cubicles. What's up with that?

Someone with the drive and know-how should start their own company and/or manage a good group of people. Folks who are the top 2% of college graduates shouldn't be worker bees in cubicles. Just sayin' even if you don't agree.

 

[morriss003]

Hi - I am 48 and my spouse is 46. Our son is 17 and is a top notch student. He has really worked his tail off and he has the academic stats to get into just about any university, including some Ivies.

He's primarily interested in some different areas of engineering for undergrad (has not made up his mind exactly) as he's very gifted in the STEM domain but he is also very interested in business. He also has his own brokerage account and he's learned a lot (with some of my advice) about personal finance/investing.

I'm trying to provide him with guidance - My wife and I believe that an engineering undergrad is the best way to go as he can always get his MBA if and when he wants to transition into different roles or management.

I'm finding it incredibly frustrating that none of the Ivies we've looked at offer any type of Merit Awards. They are all needs-based - is that correct? At 400K annual income (thanks to 40% increase in the last couple years), it's a slam dunk that we will not qualify for ANY type of financial assistance.

So, how do you steer your child who has worked so hard to look at universities that offer more merit based scholarships so attending school does not put my wife and I OR him in the poor house? I want college to be a challenging and enriching experience for him but also want to make the decision that leaves us all on sound financial footing. I don't think I can stomach ~300K for a 4 year degree (and heaven help us if it's a 5 year program) and I don't want him saddled with loans (under any circumstance). We do have a sizable amount saved in 529 but still have a very significant gap.

I feel very conflicted. It was always our goal to help both our kids obtain a marketable undergrad degree (1 down, 1 to go) but the numbers this round are staggering. In a sense, I want him to be able to go to college wherever he wants (as we believe he's earned it) but also want the price tag to be doable for all of us (and by doable, I don't mean the admission's office ability to pay). It will also likely derail any dreams of FIRE'ing in 4-5 years.


I would appreciate any advice or perspective (even better, if it's from folks who have gone through before). Thank You.

Your son sounds like a wonderful young man. Considering what he has already achieved, and that he seem responsible, I strongly suggest he NOT attend college for a year. Let him go to a foreign country and experience life there. Let him travel. It will make him a better, more empathetic person, and he might find a better college for the same amount. It sounds like you can afford it.

Check out colleges in the Brisbane/Gold Coast area of Australia, and in Portugal.

 

[kiwols]

A few comments...
DW and I have engineering degrees from a top ten, but not top tier ( not MIT or Cal Tech ) engineering school . We received excellent educations and have done well.

Both children are MIT engineering grads. ( MIT has a very good business school in addition to engineering and pure science ).

We paid full price on much lower income ... Worth every penny and then some. Not just because of network connections made, but because of their abilities upon graduation.
We did make them pay for one semester's tuition which turned out to be more than twice that of most of the other good schools. Having some "skin in the game" is not a bad thing.

Due to the ridiculous escalation in tuition country-wide, MIT can now be considered a bargain.

Our children learned more in 4 years at MIT than they would have with Masters degrees at any other top ten school.
This comes with a price. Going to MIT is like drinking from a fire hose. Many all-nighters for four years if you want to get the most from the exceptional teaching staff.
Many students that start do not finish at MIT, and these are the cream of the high school crop. Almost everyone is a valedictorian or salutatorian. The pressure is frustratingly tremendous, but I do not know any MIT graduate that regrets going there. Note that I said graduate.

Schools like MIT will teach your child how to "pull heavy loads". I remember my then 25 year old daughter coming home one Christmas telling me that kids now-a-days don't know "how to do hard work" and "how to work hard" .
The Boston area has some universities with very good engineering programs as evidenced by the numerous successful tech companies in the area.

Chemical Engineering opens your son's choice to many schools across the country. The energy industry can't get enough qualified engineers.

It sounds like your son can get into one of the better schools so get ready to pay up, let him co-op, or take out loans. Anyone can get a student loan these days as long as they are accepted to a school that is willing to take the money.

Regarding engineering or business. I recommend getting an engineering degree first. Engineering teaches you how to solve problems and make decisions.
Many of our classmates from college went on the be some of the best doctors, lawyers and CEOs, etc.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[coach02116]

And finally no offense to your DS, who I'm sure is a great kid, but academics alone will not open the door to IVY league schools. Everyone has academics it's the other stuff that tips the scale.

This^. When I first began working in college admissions, our admissions director at the time had formerly worked in admissions at an Ivy (Brown). He noted that during his tenure there, Brown's freshmen applicant pool was always strong enough to fill it's entering class 5-times over with high school valedictorians (and this was back in the late 1970's and 1980's before the CommonApp, before online applications, etc., when families only applied to 3-5 schools on average).

 

[RetMD21]

I'm an engineer as are two of my three kids. Even though I made similar money to you my kids all got free rides for their degrees by choosing the state university. Ivy league means little in the stem world.

I'm suspect it's the same in other fields as well. Some folks say that they attended top schools and got unique opportunities. Maybe they did but how would they know what opportunities could have been available elsewhere? Some of this strikes me as parents wanting to guarantee success for their children which is impossible anyway.

 

[Canoeboy]

Was and interesting study by Gallop-Perdue that talked about the most important undergraduate experiences which impact future success and happiness, regardless of the type of school or major. I recall they were: 1) having a close faculty mentor - someone that really takes interest in you and your future, 2) getting involved in multi-semester extracurricular activities/projects related to your field such as independent research, robotics clubs, etc, 3) engaging in extracurricular social activities (we are not talking drinking here), 4) internships and/or study abroad.

We learned from our first STEM child who went to a “good” school where some of the above was lacking/hard to get unless you qualified for financial aid. Our 2nd STEM child starts sophomore year today - going to a state school where all 4 factors above are being realized. His school has significant focus on providing undergraduate research, study abroad and internship opportunities - they are walking the talk in this regards. Would suggest digging into such opportunities in detail with prospective schools and understanding how well a school “fits” with your child (rather than just picking big name schools).

 

[Canoeboy]

I'm suspect it's the same in other fields as well. Some folks say that they attended top schools and got unique opportunities. Maybe they did but how would they know what opportunities could have been available elsewhere? Some of this strikes me as parents wanting to guarantee success for their children which is impossible anyway.

+1

 

[DocS]

Save the cash. Consider all options.

If your son gets into a private IVY League school with scholarship money great; but it sounds like his heartfelt interest is in business and it sounds like he has already proven this with his management of a brokerage account. Most schools require core academic subjects the first two years before getting into the core Major area subjects, so why not get those out of the way at any reasonably priced college and transfer into whatever program he finally decides on, when he is a little more mature and wiser. Meanwhile you can encourage his genuine interest in business by seeding him some cash to research stocks, bonds etc, experience a full cycle of a market which is coming soon, which ultimately will be more valuable as a life skill then any classroom education. He will have lost out on nothing academic wise, you will have saved substantial resources for advanced education for him...Ivy League or Masters or worst case scenario, added to your retirement resources and he will be ready to make a commitment as to what he truly wants to do in life.

 

[eytonxav]

One thing to consider when going to MIT or many of the state university engineering schools, prepare to be taught heavily by teaching assistants, many of whom are challenged to speak english clearly, vs being taught by tenured professors who are great communicators and teachers. If your son does not want to get lost in very large classes with less than stellar instruction, some of the smaller engineering schools might be a better option, at least at the bachelor level.

 

[RS53576GG]

I think your anecdote is more about the kind of people that your company attracts. In particular, it seems that your engineers like to work in cubicles. What's up with that?

Someone with the drive and know-how should start their own company and/or manage a good group of people. Folks who are the top 2% of college graduates shouldn't be worker bees in cubicles. Just sayin' even if you don't agree.

I have a corporation I do engineering work through but for a variety of reasons it's not my preferred way to work. My first engineering job was the only time I worked as a regular employee. After that I did contract work for the rest of my career and it was awesome. Being top 2% in an engineering class means very little in the working world because of the difference between acquiring knowledge and using knowledge. (Although there are people who are good at both.) Most companies use cubes as a way to cram more people into less space. If you work on a computer all day doing simulations and things like that it's the standard working environment. I had an office in my first job and enjoyed it but after that it was cube-ville. It was the price I paid for doing very interesting work and making good money while doing so. It was a worthwhile compromise and a no-brainer decision. Cubes are common in aerospace firms and they tend to have very interesting mechanical engineering work and will pay (grudgingly) for the skills they need. As always, your mileage may vary!

It's probably worth mentioning that for some people it takes a while to converge to the right employment situation for their interests and personality. I've seen people start in engineering and find their first job dull and uninteresting. Instead of pushing hard to identify a better place and get over there they just quit and do something else. That's their choice and it shows that engineering probably wasn't the appropriate field for them. If they really wanted to stick with it they'd figure out a way to make money doing something they love in a working arrangement that was satisfying for them. It's not easy to do but it's entirely possible to accomplish this. It just takes time, effort and the self confidence to take control of your life and make it what you want it to be.

 

[fasteddie911]

We have told him we will pay for the top state school in Washington (Univ of WA) or apply that amount to a school outside the state and he has to cover the difference. The caveat to that is we will cover a top school if he gets in (Ivies/Stanford/Univ of Chicago, etc). We will not qualify for any need-based financial aid. Also, if he does go to Univ of WA (which is a very good school in the field he wants to go into, and overall as well), we will pay for grad school, which he will most likely do. It took him a while to understand this, as he initially thought we should pay for whichever school he chose. He finally understands our stance and is OK with it. This took quite some time though as he really does not want to go to UW and only looks at it as his safe school, even though it is a highly rated school on many different ranking sites. To show his bias against it, we have been on campus many times (its fairly close to where we live) and he doesn't even think its that nice of a campus, even though it is routinely rated as one of the most beautiful campuses in the US. And it really is a very pretty campus. Next week were doing an official recruiting tour of the campus, so maybe that will help with his attitude towards the campus as well.

One of his friends that he really looks up to will be going to Stanford in the fall told him UW is just as good as the University of California schools, considering we will have to pay ~$70k for those schools vs ~$28k in state. Without knowing it, his friend did us a solid as we have been trying to emphasize value to our son lately as well. Berkeley has been one of his dream schools for many years, and hopefully his friend convinced him otherwise for undergrad. Although I'm pretty sure we will pay full price for Berkeley, but not for any other UC schools.

My spouse went UW. Your son is crazy to think it's not a gorgeous campus with great facilities. Great school overall, definitely wouldn't have minded going there myself, especially for in-state tuition.

However, your son's perspective is a lot like my HS classmates when it was college admissions time, especially the go-getters. Basically in-state school is junk, higher-ranked, "prestigious" schools elsewhere were better. Cost doesn't matter, etc. In the end, plenty classmates went expensive private or OOS schools only to go back to in-state for grad school. Eventually working alongside folks who went there for undergrad or even "worse" schools, working regular jobs. Quite a few moved back home for work, so prestige doesn't matter as much as local connections. It's not clear how beneficial the alumni network of their prestigious undergrad has helped many of them. The connections coming thru from friends, family, professional or grad school networks were more significant. I know probably 100+ folks who went to either UC's or UW and it's really not a notable difference in the end. Berkeley probably stands out a bit more but certainly not worth the price difference. Maybe save it for grad school. Don't get me wrong, for some a big-time college was right for them and they went to big careers and goals, the trajectory it seems many hope for their kids or maybe their kids think they want, but plenty folks just turned out "average" workers. I think at that age college seems like the most important thing in life (which it kind of is I guess) but in hindsight it really doesn't matter and I don't think I've known anyone to really care about college a few years out so much as what you've done since. More often, the discussion are about personal finances (somewhat attributed to loans) and/or career paths, somewhat fueled by college major.

 

[RetMD21]

I don't think an ivy league school is the hot ticket for engineering. There are plenty of state and private schools that would be much better choices.

Exactly, I think this is more about the feeding frenzy of "best" schools and anxiety about missing out