Market Bubble

I find it interesting to see how many saved their bacon by reducing their stock exposure in 1999, and then go on to apologize for market timing. :)

My theory is that the more bacon you saved, the more likely you are to either be a conservative investor or a die-hard market timer.

I saved a *lot* of bacon. :)
 
Again...I think theres a gross difference between traditional "market timing" of trying to employ some hair brained scheme to measure valuations along with associated "buy/sell" limits and the 1999/2000 "market timing" of looking at things so frickin far out of whack that theres no way to attribute the valuations to ANYTHING within an order of magnitude or more.

When I see people bidding up stocks en masse in companies that have no obvious future while jabbering "Its all about the eyeballs...the profits come later!"...I get the hell out. Another measure is that when the everyday novice investor feels like they've somehow become experts and should probably be advising other people on their investment strategies...its time to go.

(spent a little time reading some of the finance threads over on fatwallet this morning. its amazing how grossly misinformed many average people are about investing...)
 
Back in the '90s (when everyone was a brilliant investor) a coworker's husband had her cash in $50,000 worth of savings bonds so he could give the money to his brother the day-trader so they could all become millionaires. :D
 
We lost a lot of money in the tech crash. A lot. So, I'm not going to act like we have some great investing prowess.

But - money that we had cashed out (stock option money) had been diversified enough to protect those gains.

So now, I'm probably a bit more conservative than I should be. Don't get me wrong, we still have stocks/mutual funds, etc. and know the nefarious effects of inflation, etc. But a pile of cash just makes me happy.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
When I see people bidding up stocks en masse in companies that have no obvious future while jabbering "Its all about the eyeballs...the profits come later!"...I get the hell out. Another measure is that when the everyday novice investor feels like they've somehow become experts and should probably be advising other people on their investment strategies...its time to go.

(spent a little time reading some of the finance threads over on fatwallet this morning. its amazing how grossly misinformed many average people are about investing...)

In the late 90's, I had a few more "realistic" clients, who said things like: "Scott, I don't need you to make me 50% a year, I got other guys for that, if you can just make me an average of 25% a year, year over year, I'll give you a shot"............... :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

However, I made huge use of stop loss orders and other "unconventional" things to mitigate risk.............. ;)
 
audreyh1 said:
It was really only the folks who held mostly S&P500 Index or aggressive growth funds who never recovered. So the period clearly demonstrated the value of being diversified.

Audrey
What I wonder is, if you created a 100% stock portfolio in January 2000 and an equal size 60/40 stock/bond portfolio at the same time, then in, say, 2015, which is going to be higher?
 
FinanceDude said:
However, I made huge use of stop loss orders
If I had to do it all over again, I'd invest in the companies that produce stop-loss orders!
 
I also lost a lot of money in the tech bust..... Not entirely my fault (I knew better), but I was widowed in the fall of 2000 and didn't really ficus on my investments again 6-12 months later. By then, there'd been some dramatic losses (e.g., SUNW down 95%; ORCL down 90%t, etc.). Then again, I didn't do that much better when I focused.... While my wife was living I took 50k she'd made in Novell options and put it in 5 "safer" alternatives (T, Time Warner, Lucent, etc..... ) Was worth 15k when I finally sold it.

That said...my portfolio (which had dropped about 40%) finally passed its 2000 peak last year and is now up 15-20%. I''ve become a bit more conservative, much more balanced, and always attentive!
 
I retired in March 2000. I rolled my 401K into an IRA in Jan. 2000. Brinker had made a call to go 65% cash, I went 100% on my rollover and outside bridge money. Remained in cash until Brinker's March 2003 call and put in half of what he suggested. Since then I have DCA'd up to my present allocation of 50/50.

Looking back, a decent balanced fund would have weathered the storm just fine for a B&H strategy.

Going forward I'll remain in a balanced portfolio of 60/40 to 40/60 depending upon how I view the market, my results and my age.
 
A few of them looked like they aged ten years overnight.

I remember this -- it was so sad. Folks came to work looking like they'd just lost their best friend... or their dinner. Pasty and sweaty, and they couldn't focus on anything you said to them.

This last effect didn't matter much, as they were all laid off pretty quickly anyway.

Because I was working at a high-tech startup, I considered my JOB to be my investment in the bubble. And sure enough, I lost it to the crash. (Got another one with a BIG, stable company the next week, however.)

The rest of my money went to my "couch potato" portfolio and I bought a couple of houses so as to diversify into real estate.

I can't complain. I think the lesson is "slow and steady wins the race."
 
Caroline said:
... I think the lesson is "slow and steady wins the race."

That's what I am thinking. I certainly am not cut out for the 'wheeler-dealer' style myself.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
Again...I think there's a gross difference between traditional "market timing" of trying to employ some hair brained scheme to measure valuations along with associated "buy/sell" limits and the 1999/2000 "market timing" of looking at things so frickin far out of whack that theres no way to attribute the valuations to ANYTHING within an order of magnitude or more.

Ding ding right answer.

My story is pretty similar to CFB's, partly cause we worked for the same company Intel. I was really really early with the net, meaning that I've been posting on Internet discussion board for more than 25 years. (And still can't managed to make a post without a grammar mistake :() I talked to, worked with, bought stuff from most of the Internet pioneers.

But the three things that convinced me that bubble was near bursting were when:
1. My friends and I use to enjoy making up crazy internet business, like selling $100 bills for $95. When companies with even more ridiculous business plans. were getting VC funding, and going public. E.g. the search engine which offered chance a winning prizes (IRRC $10 million was the top one) just for using their free software.
2. My friend, a brilliant engineer, who had perfect record in going from one cool technology company to another and never making a dime on his options, finally found a company that went public. As VP of engineering, he gave all of his poker buddies friends and family shares, for the IPO of his company. A Business 2 Business E-commerce software provider with a 2 year history, almost no revenues and 30 odd employees. The IPO was 13, first trade at 40 I sold at 45 a couple of days later. At $4,000 the most profitable poker session ever for me. Keeping with tradition my friend as VP had to keep his shares for a year, at which point they were down to $3-4.

But my lucky with flipping isn' t the point. Since I was selling my house, and I was amazed to find that the market cap of my friends company exceeded the purchase price of every single house sold in Silicon Valley in the last year . Lets think about this which would you rather own a 30 person start-up or 600+ houses in one of the most expensive areas in the country.

3. Another friend Mike was the technical assistant to Intel's legendary CEO Andy Grove, so on my last day at Intel Mike, Andy, and I had lunch. Mike was a true Internet believer (as was I) and he still thought that the stock prices were reasonable. Andy on the other hand, explained that he just gotten the payout from a Venture Capital fund he had invested in several years and while it made him a boatload of money, he couldn't get his money out fast enough. I figured that betting Mike was smarter than Andy Grove, about making money wasn't a good bet.

By Jan 2000, I sold much of my Intel stocks, and all of my other tech stocks. I bought bonds, (because as a I retiree I knew I need them, especially TIPs with an real return of 3.92%) and REITs. Of course even my good timing was far from perfect. I also closed out of my short positions on Amazon, and AOL, (1 year too early) and if I had managed to sell all of my Intel I'd probably have another $750K.

Under normal circumstance a yearly re balancing to keep your assets properly allocated is the best way to avoid buying last years hot asset, but extraordinary times call for more drastic action.
 
clifp said:
...I figured that betting Mike was smarter than Andy Grove, about making money wasn't a good bet...

"...only the paranoid..." :LOL:
 
clifp said:
I was really really early with the net, meaning that I've been posting on Internet discussion board for more than 25 years.

Same here. Don't you hate it when you google your name and some inane usenet post from 1985 pops up? :)

What I don't get about the dot-com bubble is how quickly people stopped licking their wounds and got right back on the same momentum ride. GOOG has a market cap of $142B. Boeing has a market cap of $70B. How could this happen again so soon after a major crash? What ever happened to fear?
 
I was learning about investing in 2000 and trying to get my finances in order. I had about $60k in 401(k)/IRA. I don't recall if I rebalanced to a diversified portfolio before or after the crash, but before 2000 I was over-heavy in stock funds like Vanguard 500.

Before the crash I was reading The Fool heavily and wanting to try some stock picking. I'm glad I never got around to it as I was thinking in terms of Intel, Nortel and Cisco. At the time I thought they built the hardware that everything else was based on and therefore were less likely to see trouble than the no-revenue dotcoms.

As for my diversified portfolio, I'm was pleased to learn I could ride a > 40% drop in NAV without panicking or reallocating. It took until 2004 or 2005 for the original amount to recover, but I continued contributing and in plain dollar amounts my port recovered fairly quickly due to contributions.

So I guess I've learned I have no business trying to pick stocks and that I can calmly ride out a dip in a balanced portfolio. I'm not sure I learned enough to identify a similar future bubble, but with a balanced port I shouldn't need to.

I was also rather heavily in debt in 2000 and resisted the temptation to empty the 401(k) to pay it off. Over the next 5 years I paid off the debt "the hard way" and I'm in a terrific position now for doing it while maintaining my investments.
 
wab said:
Same here. Don't you hate it when you google your name and some inane usenet post from 1985 pops up? :)

What I don't get about the dot-com bubble is how quickly people stopped licking their wounds and got right back on the same momentum ride. GOOG has a market cap of $142B. Boeing has a market cap of $70B. How could this happen again so soon after a major crash? What ever happened to fear?

I was afraid it is heresy to say it, but that was exactly what I was thinking. Google, Yahoo and other internet plays have a valuation system that I sure the heck don't understand, so unless and until I did, I would never hold those individual stocks, no matter how high the annual return, even if somehow sustained for years. Call me a stick in the mud....
 
Never owned a dotcom stock but I did get burned by the tech stock meltdown which followed. Are we approaching another major correction?
 
clifp said:
Ding ding right answer.
Hey, if you're going to do that, do it right! ;)

I figured that betting Mike was smarter than Andy Grove, about making money wasn't a good bet.

Anyone who'd take a TA job with senior staff has highly questionable decision making skills, so good call! :LOL:

Wabs point about market cap comparisons is spot on. I used to look at some of this POS internet companies with market caps greater than most large stalwart businesses and ask myself which one I'd rather own. Mark Cuban and Steve Case figured it out.

I'm still trying to figure out Google, but I guess if they leverage their cash position into offering free wireless broadband through their portal and get everyone living in or near a major metropolitan area passing through their portal, using their Word/Excel/etc replacement apps, and pasting them with advertising...that model compared with the already known stat that people prefer interactive on-line experiences to television...well...they could end up swooping most of microsofts money and all the tv networks advertising streams.

That'd be worth something.
 
I held a few Janus funds that collapsed with the tech bust, but they weren't too big a part of my overall portfolio. The tech bubble seemed surreal to me from beginning to end, so I just stayed away. I've had two losing quarters in the past 12 years, and neither of them were during the tech bust.
 
How did the market crash impact you and what philosophy did you gain from it ?

There was a market crash? We were busy buying sad little houses and multi units and were up to our elbows in clearing away debris, replacing plumbing, rebuilding, and both working ill-paying sub $20k/year jobs so we could dump our LWBYM money into down payments and drywall mud. Seems like I do remember people making money for nothing as we were working yet another weekend. Result is I don't know doodly about investing and have started reading and hanging out here and on the diehard's site hoping we can transition out of babysitting our tenants. The cost of divesting is keeping us in RE. Just hate sharing with Uncle Sammy.
 
We were busy buying sad little houses and multi units and were up to our elbows in clearing away debris, replacing plumbing, rebuilding, and both working

Yeah that was me too. Expect I followed Brinkers recomendation with my 401k and pulled 2/3 of the wad out of the market in January 2000.

Then I preached "the sky is falling" to everyone who would listen. Gave my brother and his buddy - a Yahoo sales person and paper millionaire - an earful one evening .... they laughed at me. Then decided to "put my money where my mouth was" and set up a futures account to short QQQ thru Feb 2000. Lost 9k in about 3 weeks (shorting QQQ) and, so, was sitting on the sideline (licking my wounds) when the bottom fell out a month later :-[.

Oh, the Yahoo sales man ... he's waiting tables. Couldn't make this stuff up!
 
tryan said:
Yeah that was me too. Expect I followed Brinkers recomendation with my 401k and pulled 2/3 of the wad out of the market in January 2000.

Then decided to "put my money where my mouth was" and set up a futures account to short QQQ thru Feb 2000. Lost 9k in about 3 weeks (shorting QQQ) and, so, was sitting on the sideline (licking my wounds) when the bottom fell out a month later :-[.

I didn't really profit from the NASDAQ run-up, because I do not have the tech background to understand even vaguely the technology. I did own some Dell, but thought it was just store, so I sold way too early.

I felt maximum insanity had been reached in the fall of 1999, so I started buying QQQ puts, as well as some puts on Micron, Atmel, etc. These all expired worthless in Jan 2000. I had lost enough that I didn't have the stamina to roll them. When the bottom fell out, I like tryan was no longer aboard.

I would like to say I learned something from this. I still couldn't go long if the situation repeated itself. It seemed nuts then, and it would seem nuts now. I guess I did learn that it is better to hedge moderately, so you can keep it up until the bull is dead. My hope was a huge score, so I was not pacing myself.

Ha
 
tryan said:
Yeah that was me too. Expect I followed Brinkers recomendation with my 401k and pulled 2/3 of the wad out of the market in January 2000.

Did you also follow Brinker's March '03 buy recommendation?
 
I was working in Silicon Valley during the tech boom. Most of my money was in a 401k and reasonably well diversified. I occasionally questioned my investing strategy when co-workers would boast about big money they made on IPOs or leveraged real estate transactions. I too heard the boasts from co-workers about being able to retire with lots of money in only two more years of investing this way.

My 401k survived the bubble, crash and eventual recovery in pretty darn good shape.

What this sequence of events did was to give me a lot more confidence in managing my own investments. It also showed me that I had the emotional fortitude to ride out the market's volitilty.

One other thing I learned: I was planning to sell a bunch of stock options late in 2000 but the stock price was already on a downward trend. I decided to wait until it came back up. It ultimately dropped to only 20% of its former value and has never returned it is former high value. I am once again in a position where I want to exercise options. This time I wrote out a plan for when I would sell and how much I would sell so I can do it analytically instead of emotionally. Seeing the company stock price ticker jump up (or fall) causes me to have too much of an emotional reaction so I learned that I can use a written plan to keep my emotions in check. (btw, I have a written plan for my 401k and other investments these days as well -- just in case I need some self support the next time the market goes wonky)
 
I would like to say I learned something from this. I still couldn't go long if the situation repeated itself. It seemed nuts then, and it would seem nuts now. I guess I did learn that it is better to hedge moderately

The one thing I learned ... "If you can't hang with the BIG DOGS, stay under the porch". ::)

I didn't have the kaunas to watch thousands of $$ evaporate in a couple hours.

Did you also follow Brinker's March '03 buy recommendation?

Yup ... second smartest thing I did with my 401k.
 
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