More Doom and Gloom

[Nords]

Lemme get this straight...

Please excuse me if I offend, but you people who are so critical of perceived corporate misdeeds probably have no idea of what it is like to actually run a company. JG

So, John, you're saying that we have to run a company before we can understand the principles of honesty, ethics, responsibility, & accountability?

I guess that would explain why CEOs are paid so much more...

 

[ESRBob]

TH:

Though I was an executive in several large corporations, I still believe that any company, when it starts systematic employee abuse thats deliberate and culpable, should not only be accountable in the civil courts, but stand to lose its corporate charter, which is the corporate equivalent of the death penalty. .

Lex, I think the CEOs should go to jail, but destroying the company (unless it is so riddled with corruption that it is really hopeless) is going to destroy the retirement benefits and prospects of a lot more worthy people, to say nothing of the livelihoods of everyone working there.

It does make you wonder if the corporate pension is really just dying its last gasps. a) who knows how long a company is going to be around ? Give me my 401k and you guys can do whatever you want -- i've got a long retirement ahead of me and b) with people shafting you to get rid of you or at best forgetting about you within about a month of your leaving the organization, why should we think that decades later their successorss successors will care one whit about us, or be willing to suffer earnings losses and bonus reductions in order to pay our expensiive health care benefits or pensions?

 

[bruce1]

They are prolly using the "Idunno" excuse to try and get out of trouble. I think it is a weak excuse.

The Prime Minister and former Prime Minister of Canada are using Idunno a lot the last two days. I think they both should be in jail but may be the best of a poor lot.

Bruce

 

[John Galt]

And still more whining..................

JG

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yep, everyone at Intel does get a cubicle, even the chairman and ceo.

But they get BIG cubicles.

Considering I've acted as interrim CEO of several of one of my former employers venture capital investments that werent working out, I can say I have a little CEO experience...not enron or worldcom size companies to be sure.

My understanding of these misdeeds however are that they were widespread, deep, and if the CEO didnt know anything about them...well he's a moron, clueless, blind, deaf and dumb. Or simply a big fat liar.

I'm gonna go with "big fat liar".

Even as an interrim guy, I think I'd have known if we were cooking the books on a multi billion dollar scale, or if we were gaming the system to cause shortages and boost revenues by factors of 10 and 100.

But hey John, sure, every CEO of a $50B company doesnt know what some salesguy in Calgary is or isnt doing. He sure as **** better know what the CFO and a bunch of his VP's are doing. And perhaps have some grasp on how they managed to make a lot more money than they should have.

 

[LEX]

ESRBob:

OK, I would agree that suspending a Corporate Charter would punish the innocent employees when there is gross misconduct by a Corporation's senior staff towards its employees.  

Perhaps allowing that no one employee, inlcuding management, is immune from personal civil liability for outrageous emotional abuse or economic extortion would help check this type of non-sense. If the conduct would not be permissable if one person did it to another outside of an employer employee relationship, do not allow an abusive manager to hide behind the corporation to get away with the same conduct.   Let a judge and jury hear the matter and hold individuals accountable for their abusive and outrageous acts to those least able to protect themselves from emotional abuse and economic extortion.  

I have worked in a corporation that hired a "re-engineering" consultant that would hold meetings and verbally insult employees before their entire departments with language that, had this been an exchange between two people on the street, would have been fighting words and defamatory.  What do you do.  Yes, you can quit.  But the objective here was to make a certain number of employees do just that, and avoid severance programs due to a "voluntary" departure by the targeted employee.  It was as if we were in a Maoist Re-education camp.  I am not kidding.  I would preferred that this senior management group be held liable for tortious verbal and defamatory employee abuse, and the shareholders be fully informed as to the way this company treated its employees.

I would welcome others to cite similar conduct.  

 

[FunGoals]

The Emperor Has No Clothes

One weekend there was a major incident. On Monday local management was asked to explain to company management. Local management decided to have meetings on Tuesday & Wednesday. Everyone was invited including people on their day off. The local manager opened the meeting. I realized about 2 minutes into the opening that he had no idea how the incident COULD have developed.

The rest of the managers acted like they were in the boardroom on The Apprentice everyone trying to cover their own. During open discussion several times I spoke each time before I sat down the same person was up challenging what I had just said. This surprised even the manager. Apparently he was following the manager. About every 3 years management would change & bring in their own people.

This manager was not a PITA his downfall was trusting people who had their own agenda. He still should of been out & about more & paid more attention to repetitive maintenance work orders which would of signaled a larger problem.

 

[Brat]

LEX, S.O. is well known for it's shakem loose moves. Years ago they had a invoice processing office in Portland (back in the key-punch days) which had an aging workforce. They moved the office. Too many old folks followed so they moved it again a couple years later.

 

[LEX]

It is amazing what companies get away with.

Build a company off the labor and skill of dedicated employees, then take them out back and shoot them once they age or annoy the ruling elite.  Sounds like the Stalinist School of Management.

 

[John Galt]

And still more whining

JG

 

[MJ]

And still more whining

and you're still playing that same ol broken record

MJ

 

[haha]

And still more whining    
JG

JG, you must really enjoy pushing people's tolerance. I hope it gives you immense pleasure, right up there with your incessant bragging.

Mikey

 

[Beststash]

And still more whining    

JG

Typical

 

[snowbird]

JG - Spoken like a true Republican. You'd rather hide you head in the sand and let these bastards get away with it. Just like you're buddy G. Dubya who will never say he's wrong about anything. You'll probably be the first to whine when he takes your SS away from you. What the hell, you probably didn't pay into it anyways being the big CEo that you were... not.

 

[JOhn Galt]

Well, someone has to defend all of the greedy
executives/corporations/capitalists. Where do you people think the jobs come from? The government
can't employ all of you. I do enjoy pushing your
buttons though. I surely do. Sometimes I wish the
responses were a bit less strident and a bit more well
thought out. But, I just consider the source and move on.

JG

 

[MJ]

Sometimes I wish the
responses were a bit less strident and a bit more well
thought out. But, I just consider the source and move on.

I agree. :-/

As always, thanks for your usual "thought out" reply.

MJ

 

[xprinter]

I agree with John. In order to compete on a world wide market our labor force will have to be competitively priced

 

[hocus]

Someone has to defend all of the greedy executives.... The government can't employ all of you.

Government vs. corporate is not the only possible dichotomy that can apply. Another possibility is big vs. small. Big entities (whether government or corporate) benefit from certain economies of scale not enjoyed by small entities. But they sometimes lack an understanding of the small picture--the details of the job that needs to be done, the ability to put a human face on the downside of a particular decision.

 

[rockpile]

Knew a kid in grade school named Leaonard. Just like John Galt. Really thought he was smarter than the rest of the world. Everytime he opened his mouth, the rest of the class would groan. Always had a snide answer. Nevewr without a put down.

Don't know what happened to him, just assume he's heading up some county Republican party somewhere.

JG's biggest problem, besides his huge ego and unpopularity, is not his wingnut politics; it's his utter lack of empathy for other people. He'll deny it, but it comes through loud and clear everytime he makes some wiseass remark.

Or, on second thought, maybe that is the substance of his wingnut politics.

Is that "thought out" enough for you??

 

[JOhn Galt]

This is mostly for rockpile. My ex. opined that I thought I was smarter than everyone else.
Could be the most insight she ever displayed.

Also, you are wrong about the empathy. Like Rush Limbaugh under my rough exterior I am a big loveable
fuzz ball. I just don't suffer fools lightly, and I see
a lot of them.

JG

 

[sgeeeee]

This is mostly for rockpile.  My ex. opined that I thought I was smarter than everyone else.
Could be the most insight she ever displayed.  

Also, you are wrong about the empathy.  Like Rush Limbaugh under my rough exterior I am a big loveable
fuzz ball.   I just don't suffer fools lightly, and I see
a lot of them.

JG

Yeah. Your true empathic nature just shines through.

 

[Bridget]

I do agree that being CEO is hard and that he/she isn't always told all of the information regarding what is going on - however, I think it is up to them to find out. Egregious cases like Enron and Worldcom are cases in which the CEO should "go down with the ship." Also, the point regarding setting a corporate tone and culture is dead-on. What will or will not be tolerated is what a CEO projects.

Being the CEO is a onely position and he/she needs to guard against the 'insulation' of the people around them and their agendas. To me it's just scary that the CEO would get a free pass based on ignorance.

John Galt, I do understand your position, however, I would hope that you would not use that type of defense if ever in that position. You strike me as a much more responsible person

Bridget aka Deserat

 

[John Galt]

Well, thank you Bridget. I may get in some trouble
yet, but doubt it would be that type as I am happily retired and expect to remain so. As far as the
"I didn't know about it defense", whether you believe it or not or maybe just find it distasteful, it may be the only one the poor guy has. Thus, he kind of has to go with it. Or, I guess he could plead guilty. Sorry, but I
have a lot of empathy for these guys. I also believe that
many prosecutors tend to hit the high profile types especially hard (think Martha Stewart). I was talking to my attorney once
(forget the issue). He told me something I never forgot.
He said, "Always remember, in the eyes of most employees and the government generally, you are the
evil big guy." I was shocked. I saw myself as someone
who created jobs and paid taxes, thus helping the community in a very positive way. Turns out he was
right. Envy?

JG

JG

 

[Beststash]

I was never close to a CEO or CFO of corporation but.....I did spend 33 years before ER in Operations for a Fortune 500 company. My last 5 years as Director (retired in 2003) were the most exciting and the most depressing of my career. I finally got sick of being the carrier of bad news to people that had devoted their life for the "company". My only regret of my entire career was that I did not tell my VP and all of the rest of the "good olé boys" they were wrong and stuck to my story - regardless of the consequences. When the corporate culture got into the quarterly competition for earnings and the "out of the box" crap - most coming from people that little or no experience in our industry, it was a three ring circus. I try to be an optimist, but have to admit that the present leadership of most corps and government is depressing.
We became the most productive and progressive (liberal word) country in the world with true leadership - these days there is a vacuum, however at some point I believe the pendulum will swing back and hopefully we can move ahead.
JG - Remember arrogance is not a virtue, we all have enough problems that a little compassion is always a "good thing".

PEACE

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I think owning up to your deliberate misdeeds has some potential.

And Martha Stewart asked for it. She's lucky all she got was a short stretch. And apparently a tv deal out of *that*.