Need Help for a long time friend with spending issues.

[ivinsfan]

Apologies to people of the medical profession on this forum, but there are bad doctors just like there are incompetent people in any other profession or trade.

Worse, people can tell if their mechanic is good or not, but how do you know if your doctor is a quack? And heck, some doctors are addicts themselves.

My nephew who's a pharmacist told me he saw so many doctors wrote bad prescriptions, it made him angry.

Your mechanic might not fix your car correctly, but at least he probably won't kill you.


I tried to find the name of this doctor last weekend when going through the paperwork. I couldn't find it, but if I do find it I'm making a call to the state medical board.

 

[CardsFan]

He needs incarceration. He needs clinical help.

You are right he needs clinical help, but in the current environment it is virtually impossible to involuntarily commit someone. Even if he scares someone and is taken into custody, as soon as he is deemed no longer a danger to himself or others, he is released. Even if he voluntarily commits himself, he can be released if he requests. I know this from personal experience with my brother.

Now, if he commits a crime, then it might be possible to detain him longer. Unfortunately, it might take someone being injured, or worse, before the system can act. And I don't blame the system. It is a result of laws passed years ago, and the law of unintended consequences.

 

[NW-Bound]

Drugs that mess with your brain or nerves can have unusual and serious effects.

When I was in the hospital for a major surgery, I developed a bad case of hiccup. It lasted for hours, and persisted even when I got tired and fell asleep. My wife said people could hear my hiccup from outside my hospital room.

My surgeon gave me a drug. I don't remember, but it could be baclofen. When it did not help, the next day he gave me something else. Just one pill, and the effect was horrifying.

This drug paralyzed my facial muscles. I could think and hear clearly, but could not control my eyelids. It slowed my arms and legs, but I remember that I could still walk about slowly to go to the bathroom. In order to see, I had to use one hand to spread open my eyelids. I could talk, but my speech was slurred.

It took 24 hours for the effect of that single pill to wear off. I am no longer sure of the name, but it could be Chlorpromazine. Wikipedia says "it is used to treat psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia or manic-depression in adults. Chlorpromazine is also used in adults to treat nausea and vomiting, anxiety before surgery, chronic hiccups, acute intermittent porphyria, and symptoms of tetanus."

When I next saw my surgeon, I described the drug effect to him. Of course, he did not know about this, and I did not blame him. It does not affect every person the same, but certainly terrified me. Worse, it did not cure my hiccup!

 

[JustCurious]

Did your friend ask for your advice?

 

[ivinsfan]

Did your friend ask for your advice?

Go back and read the first post.

 

[NW-Bound]

You are right he needs clinical help, but in the current environment it is virtually impossible to involuntarily commit someone...

I know.

And that's why it is not possible for the OP to help her friend. She's helpless just to watch him spiral down to total destruction.

And contrary to other posters who do not understand the terrible effects of drugs, I feel sorry for this man who has gone mad not totally due to his fault.

 

[JustCurious]

Go back and read the first post.

I went back and read it and I don't see where the OP said the friend asked for advice.

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

He did worse than that he asked for a loan in post #1 and then later he hinted that he needed 30K to fix his landscaping.

 

[ivinsfan]

Help, advice. money...what's the difference..but asking for help or advice and then listening to it are two different things.

 

[JustCurious]

He did worse than that he asked for a loan in post #1 and then later he hinted that he needed 30K to fix his landscaping.

Right, he asked for money, that's different than asking for financial advice.

 

[JustCurious]

Help, advice. money...what's the difference..but asking for help or advice and then listening to it are two different things.

The difference is asking for money is different than asking for financial advice. Some people want money but don't want advice or to be told what to do. Unsolicited advice, especially about money, is rarely welcomed.

 

[ivinsfan]

The difference is asking for money is different than asking for financial advice. Some people want money but don't want advice or to be told what to do. Unsolicited advice, especially about money, is rarely welcomed.

Would you mind not going off in the weeds? You aren't adding anything useful here.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

The difference is asking for money is different than asking for financial advice. Some people want money but don't want advice or to be told what to do. Unsolicited advice, especially about money, is rarely welcomed.

Isn't your post itself unsolicited advice to ivinsfan?

 

[teetee]

I'll try to be brief, ask questions if you need clarity. And yes it really is for a "friend"


He is 69 YO.


In complete denial about being flat-### broke. Has a paid off house maybe in the 600K region. Drives a 50K pickup which he took a big personal loan against. Only income after 10 years of BTD is a net after Part B of about 800 a month in SS. 500 of that goes directly to his truck payment.



By my reckoning has spent about 1.8 million dollars in the last 10 years. Around 850K for the house he lives in. His actual problem is he is addicted to consumer spending. He had a rough childhood and his endorphins come from having high quality stuff. Never been married and not close to sibs because of their childhoods.



He's been telling us for 3 years he is going broke. This was after he confessed he hadn't filed a tax return since 15 because he pulled money from his IRA to buy a high end stereo system (think 40K) and then owed income tax and payback on his ACA subsidy. Didn't have the cash so didn't file.


Long story short he called this morning he has maxed out his personal overdraft loan at his bank resulting in all his CC cards being frozen because of missed payments. Probably owes 20K on those.



Myself, my DH and another close personal friend have told him for the last 3 years he needs to sell his house. clear his debts and then move on with the rest of his life. He says he knows that, but he just won't sell his house, excuse after excuse.



Anyway he asked for a small "loan" and then if I would help him look into government programs such as SNAP, heating assistance to help him get by. At this point none of those programs are going to fix his issues. I don't even mind "giving" him some money but at this point it feels like enabling.



The taxes alone for his house run about 900 a month so nothing we could do will really help.


He's really been a good friend for many decades. He has anxiety issues and fairly severe diabetes.



What would you advise we say/do to actually help him move on from here and make some hard financial moves.


I realize it's a combo financial/mental problem and could use some pointers from anyone who has been where we are now.

I don't know man. It is not like he will listen to you. He eventually will have to (short) sell the house and become homeless if he can't wait for the senior housing assistance.

It is sad but at his age, it sounds like he is ready to just give in and not even bother to identify the source of the problem, let alone admitting he has a problem. I know because two of my family members have exactly the same mentality. Both are clothes hoarders.

I don't know what else is there to say except you should be ready to either cut all ties or define the amount of financial assistance you are willing to provide. In most cases, the later only invite more trouble (him sleeping in your guest room or living room for the next 3 years) if you don't say no at the beginning.

Sorry for all the gloominess. I am just tired of hearing those family members of mine kept saying they have lived long enough like they think their death is the ultimate excuse for not having to change a thing all day long. I tuned it out but still can't help feeling disgusted and sad about it.

It is not your issue or responsibility to fix. You should feel sad (not being able to walk is a good motivation to get addicted to online consumer spending) but you should not feel guilty about your friend's situation he chose to get himself into or your decision not to being his enabler.

 

[EastWest Gal]

Drugs that mess with your brain or nerves can have unusual and serious effects.

When I was in the hospital for a major surgery, I developed a bad case of hiccup. It lasted for hours, and persisted even when I got tired and fell asleep. My wife said people could hear my hiccup from outside my hospital room.

My surgeon gave me a drug. I don't remember, but it could be baclofen. When it did not help, the next day he gave me something else. Just one pill, and the effect was horrifying.

This drug paralyzed my facial muscles. I could think and hear clearly, but could not control my eyelids. It slowed my arms and legs, but I remember that I could still walk about slowly to go to the bathroom. In order to see, I had to use one hand to spread open my eyelids. I could talk, but my speech was slurred.

It took 24 hours for the effect of that single pill to wear off. I am no longer sure of the name, but it could be Chlorpromazine. Wikipedia says "it is used to treat psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia or manic-depression in adults. Chlorpromazine is also used in adults to treat nausea and vomiting, anxiety before surgery, chronic hiccups, acute intermittent porphyria, and symptoms of tetanus."

When I next saw my surgeon, I described the drug effect to him. Of course, he did not know about this, and I did not blame him. It does not affect every person the same, but certainly terrified me. Worse, it did not cure my hiccup!

It bothers me that your surgeon gave you a powerful drug without knowing this potential side effect. I remember learning about dystonic reactions in my pharmacology course in medical school. It’s more common in pediatric patients (similar drugs were used as anti emetics in pediatric cancer patients). I’ve treated a few patients with dystonic reactions and it is simple and gratifying to see them get better within minutes. What really bothers me about your story is that there are two drugs which would have immediately reversed the effect, benztropine and diphenhydramine (Benadryl). You suffered needlessly. Your doctor could have looked up the treatment or called the hospital pharmacist. The problem with surgeons is they are often really good at surgery but myopic when it comes to non-surgical issues.

No apologies needed to the previous poster who talked about bad doctors. In any profession there are always the self-serving and varying degrees of incompetency. The trouble is with doctors the cost of being bad is very great indeed.

Back to the regularly scheduled thread…

 

[Music Lover]

I don't know man. It is not like he will listen to you. He eventually will have to (short) sell the house and become homeless if he can't wait for the senior housing assistance.

It is sad but at his age, it sounds like he is ready to just give in and not even bother to identify the source of the problem, let alone admitting he has a problem. I know because two of my family members have exactly the same mentality. Both are clothes hoarders.

I don't know what else is there to say except you should be ready to either cut all ties or define the amount of financial assistance you are willing to provide. In most cases, the later only invite more trouble (him sleeping in your guest room or living room for the next 3 years) if you don't say no at the beginning.

Sorry for all the gloominess. I am just tired of hearing those family members of mine kept saying they have lived long enough like they think their death is the ultimate excuse for not having to change a thing all day long. I tuned it out but still can't help feeling disgusted and sad about it.

It is not your issue or responsibility to fix. You should feel sad (not being able to walk is a good motivation to get addicted to online consumer spending) but you should not feel guilty about your friend's situation he chose to get himself into or your decision not to being his enabler.

That's about it. He knows of his problems but doesn't want to address them. It's a life time pattern of neglect, not an unforeseen run of bad luck or bad health. Giving him money only delays the inevitable but will change nothing. If they let him stay in a room in their house they'll have a hard time getting him to leave when they've had enough and most likely they'll suddenly be the bad guy for putting him out on the street.

 

[Chuckanut]

That's about it. He knows of his problems but doesn't want to address them. It's a life time pattern of neglect, not an unforeseen run of bad luck or bad health. Giving him money only delays the inevitable but will change nothing. If they let him stay in a room in their house they'll have a hard time getting him to leave when they've had enough and most likely they'll suddenly be the bad guy for putting him out on the street.

The guy is a Crazy Maker.

Once you try to help a CM, anything and everything that goes wrong is your fault. You didn't do it right. Or you didn't do enough. Or things changed so you must do it again but differently. The fault is all on you. Not so good.

 

[ivinsfan]

Bumping this for GBman asking about a broke friend who he wants to help.


Our friend is still broke and probably 90 days away from having his CC cards frozen. He has done nothing to sell his home or solve his issues. The fallout will be spectacular.

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

I remember this thread and from time I wondered if he finally decided to face his problems. I take he still has free access to his Ambien as well?

 

[ivinsfan]

I remember this thread and from time I wondered if he finally decided to face his problems. I take he still has free access to his Ambien as well?

He sure does... I found out he told his Dr he can't sleep because of anxiety ( he should actually have anxiety because of his problems) and the doctor very kindly added some seroquel to his Ambien routine..

 

[NW-Bound]

It bothers me that your surgeon gave you a powerful drug without knowing this potential side effect. I remember learning about dystonic reactions in my pharmacology course in medical school. It’s more common in pediatric patients (similar drugs were used as anti emetics in pediatric cancer patients). I’ve treated a few patients with dystonic reactions and it is simple and gratifying to see them get better within minutes. What really bothers me about your story is that there are two drugs which would have immediately reversed the effect, benztropine and diphenhydramine (Benadryl). You suffered needlessly. Your doctor could have looked up the treatment or called the hospital pharmacist. The problem with surgeons is they are often really good at surgery but myopic when it comes to non-surgical issues.

No apologies needed to the previous poster who talked about bad doctors. In any profession there are always the self-serving and varying degrees of incompetency. The trouble is with doctors the cost of being bad is very great indeed.

Back to the regularly scheduled thread…

I missed the above post, and just now see this. Thanks.

I need a clarification. By "reversing the effect", do you mean benztropine and diphenhydramine (Benadryl) would stop the facial paralysis that the other drug caused?

 

[EastWest Gal]

I missed the above post, and just now see this. Thanks.



I need a clarification. By "reversing the effect", do you mean benztropine and diphenhydramine (Benadryl) would stop the facial paralysis that the other drug caused?

Yes. I have treated a couple of pediatric patients with those medications myself. It works.

 

[NW-Bound]

Ah, so the facial paralysis effect is not rare as I thought. Perhaps the drug I had should not be given without close medical observation.

Back on my prolonged hiccup, what would be a good treatment for it, compared to the drugs that I was given?

PS. I had major surgery twice. Both times, the incessant hiccup happened, and the drug I was given did not work. It was on the 2nd surgery that I asked for another drug after taking the 1st drug again, and suffered the facial paralysis. In the remote chance that I needed surgery again, I'd like to know what to ask for. Thx.

 

[gamboolman]

ivinsfan,

Wow, just wow.
This thread is helpful for the similar situation that ms gamboolgal and I are in with some friends.

All the best for you and for your friend.

 

[Sojourner]

Our friend is still broke and probably 90 days away from having his CC cards frozen. He has done nothing to sell his home or solve his issues. The fallout will be spectacular.

Wow... I can't believe your friend is still hanging on after all this time and still has ~90 days of running up CC debt which (almost certainly) will end up being wiped out in bankruptcy at some point. Kind of shocking that he's being given so much additional rope to hang himself with, metaphorically speaking. Please keep us posted on the "spectacular fallout".