Opportunity to throw the boss under the bus

[Running_Man]

I have never been one for backing down to anyone in management, in my experience most corporations are constantly looking to improve, the most important part is to insure you provide more value than you are paid. If you are doing that your opinion will always be valued and you will be able to give your honest thoughts on any situation concerning your company and you will be viewed as decisive. This does not mean making destructive comments about your boss or your company. Obnoxious and aggressiveness by themselves do not negatively impact a company.

If your bosses boss is calling you for a meeting on your boss I would have an unemotional evaluation of your bosses performance if asked and if you have any critical analysis to present on how his decisions are negatively affecting the company I would certainly list those with a counter of how you would prefer the situation to be handled. You should also realize it is not easy to be the boss, or the bosses boss and be willing to state you will work just as hard as ever to implement the decisions made by management. Myself I could not work any other way.

 

[samclem]

It is very flattering to be asked by BB your opinion of B. Be sure you've done a cold evaluation of all the motivations, equities, gain/loss opportunities here, especially your own. That's not meant at all in a mean or negative way.

Good luck

 

[obgyn65]

I agree with this.

Even if all turns out for the best (entirely possible) and the rude boss is either moved or improved, if I were OP I'd make a note of how my conversations with peers moved along the grapevine. And I'd remember that everything you say to everyone will eventually get to whoever you'd least like to hear it with unpredictable results.

 

[Westernskies]

Sam gave the best synopsis, IMO, but I'll add my 2cents worth, at no additional charge...around getting what you want out of an inevitable meeting.

I'd just confirm there are "issues" in the department that contribute to lower morale and diminished produictivity , but that you are uncomfortable with the meeting because the demonstrated "corporate culture" in your dept. doesn't support open and honest upward-reporting feedback.

If you sense in the meeting with BB that she is looking for ammunition to fire B, I'd :

1. Ask her exactly what is it you are looking for? She may give you the opening you both are looking for. If she is vague on this, she gets vague answers back.
2. Why did she choose to interview you? Suggest she talk to others in the dept. - and helpfully furnish her a few names...stack the deck.
3. Ask her does B know about this meeting? How do she believe he would he react if he knew? Give her food for thought.
4. Confirm you are unhappy with your current posting at Megacorp, love what you do and would really like to stay at Megacorp as a positive contributor if the culture were different. Brewer played this well in his situation.

Good luck, can't wait for the post with the meeting update.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Don't ever sell out

After reading all of these posts, my reaction is more than ever...become FI. The bill for all that crap you have ever spent money on is coming due now with interest in your regressing quality of life.

If you become FI then it just won't matter anymore. Then you can say what you want, whenever, and to whomever. If they want to then fire you, so be it. But you have to be true to yourself. Don't let anyone push you around. Don't ever sell out.

It is just amazing how different you feel once you have enough.

 

[Sarah in SC]

After reading all of these posts, my reaction is more than ever...become FI. The bill for all that crap you have ever spent money on is coming due now with interest in your regressing quality of life.

If you become FI then it just won't matter anymore. Then you can say what you want, whenever, and to whomever. If they want to then fire you, so be it. But you have to be true to yourself. Don't let anyone push you around. Don't ever sell out.

It is just amazing how different you feel once you have enough.

+1. Every day I don't kill the ice-crunching, change-jingling, pen-clicking m-fer around here is a day closer to my version of FI.

 

[devans0]

I was/am in a similar situation. I am close to FIRE and chose to go to HR. I did however collect names of witnesses and dates, as well as a series of acts that make the company legally liable and lost them production and money. I also made sure that my list included enough names of others that I would not be a person with a personal vendetta. My real fear is that when the boss gets fired, that he will attempt to carry out some of his threats. His health is such that if he loses his job, he will lose insurability and bankrupt himself. Dire circumstances make people desperate.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Exec Asst (EA) has it out for my boss...she has seen him be rude to people, fire people, and run them off. She dislikes him immensely.

EA told me that another person in the ranks recently told her "that's it, there's no fixing it, I am looking for a job"; add to that my question about payback of the signing bonus, and EA went to BB and spilled the beans...that boss' rudeness is causing past and present unhappiness. BB was shocked and now wants to talk to me (and maybe some others; don't know for sure).

My gut tells me this is not a search for malcontents. And EA is the one that has noticed my discouragement over some months. My sense is my discouragement is coming to BB from EA and no one else.

And this is a very hiearchical organization btw.

I think EA is talking out of school--telling you about anothe person complaining, pumping you for complaints about the boss, running to her boss to share those. Some people like to stir things up and enjoy the fallout. Watch your back.

But worse for you, imho, is this last paragraph in your first post:

And there is actually another layer of boss...my immediate boss who has not been in the job long and has been working on other things. This person strikes me as a chameleon trying to survive (can't blame the person). This is the fourth person in that position in 12 months...part of the turnover I mentioned.

So you are really below a different person than the bad boss (who is your boss's boss), but the bad boss's boss had been made aware by the EA that you are unhappy and instead of you discussing it with your immediate boss, or your immediate boss discussing it with bad boss's boss, you are being invited to go over both your boss and your boss's (bad) boss's heads to complaing about your boss's (bad) boss.

No good can come of this for you.

 

[Nords]

So you are really below a different person than the bad boss (who is your boss's boss), but the bad boss's boss had been made aware by the EA that you are unhappy and instead of you discussing it with your immediate boss, or your immediate boss discussing it with bad boss's boss, you are being invited to go over both your boss and your boss's (bad) boss's heads to complaing about your boss's (bad) boss.
No good can come of this for you.

OK, now I need a scorecard, and maybe finger puppets...

 

[Meadbh]

So you are really below a different person than the bad boss (who is your boss's boss), but the bad boss's boss had been made aware by the EA that you are unhappy and instead of you discussing it with your immediate boss, or your immediate boss discussing it with bad boss's boss, you are being invited to go over both your boss and your boss's (bad) boss's heads to complaing about your boss's (bad) boss.

Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

 

[Nova]

I'm not sure I totally understand Bestwifeever's argument, but I agree with her conclusion.

 

[Rustward]

It is getting kinda difficult to follow all of this. To the OP, you need to be as defensive (and cooperative) as possible, if it is at all possible to do both. A lot of good advice has come from this thread. I have been interviewed by the boss's boss in similar situations at least twice over the last 34 years (and possibly more times in stealth mode when I did not realize it was happening), and in hindsight, it was (in my opinion) an exercise by management to determine who to keep. I survived both, but I don't know by how much, and for the possibly stealth ones, have no idea. Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Executive summary :

GerbilWheel GW has
Boss A who is new and is busy doing other things, who has
Boss B who is bad, who has
Boss C who wants to talk to GW about Boss B because Executive Assistant EA told him GW is not happy--so GW might be seen as complaining directly to his boss's boss's boss about his boss's boss.

That just can't be a good thing.

 

[Gerbil Wheel]

The meeting did not happen today...probably tomorrow...stay tuned...

 

[chris2008]

If you give examples, give them on a "facts only" basis, no emotions or conclusions attached. If possible, use examples where evidence is documented.

Let BB draw her own conclusions from the facts.
If she is able to take action, she is also able to draw conclusions. If not, be it so.

And make sure to store the evidence outside of the office before bad boss returns and draws HIS conclusions.

 

[Gerbil Wheel]

Well, no meeting today either...and BB had the perfect opportunity because after we wrapped up a conference call together in her office, she sent me on my way without mentioning anything about the issue.

I am beginning to wonder if BB is expecting me to initiate the conversation...in which case I am just going to ignore the situation, keep my head down and discreetly job hunt. Should I speak to EA to clarify who is expected to initiate the meeting? "BB wants to talk to you next week" were her words. No....I think I will just ignore this and hope it goes away.

 

[powerplay]

My vote is to NOT throw the boss under the bus. I doubt any long term good can come of it and you never know where your path may cross with this boss again.

 

[ChrisC]

My vote is to NOT throw the boss under the bus. I doubt any long term good can come of it and you never know where your path may cross with this boss again.

I agree with this advice as well, unless the boss is commiting some crime, or is totally, demonstratively incompetent or is so rude and offensive that his behavior clearly violates the standards or culture of the organization. If this is simply a case of someone with an extremely terrrible bedside manner, I'd let it go -- his bedside manner should be obvious to anyone in the office. Obviously, he must have done something right in the past to be in the position he now occupies, right?

I think your EA is on a head-hunting mission and you might be a pawn in the process.

There's a time and place to throw someone under the bus -- I don't think this even comes close to that situation. Many of us have had bosses from hell or toxic colleagues -- you adjust and deal with them, and if it gets real bad, you move.

 

[harley]

Well, no meeting today either...and BB had the perfect opportunity because after we wrapped up a conference call together in her office, she sent me on my way without mentioning anything about the issue.

I am beginning to wonder if BB is expecting me to initiate the conversation...in which case I am just going to ignore the situation, keep my head down and discreetly job hunt. Should I speak to EA to clarify who is expected to initiate the meeting? "BB wants to talk to you next week" were her words. No....I think I will just ignore this and hope it goes away.

See rule #3.

1) Trust No One
2) Deny Everything
3) If you ignore a problem long enough it will go away

 

[Gerbil Wheel]

STILL no request to meet from BB...I am hoping it's over or forgotten...or something like that.

 

[easysurfer]

I think that's the best approach. Let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[Buckeye]

Is this like the Catholic priest situation? "I don't want to rock the boat, let the other guy do it." People get hurt when good people don't speak up. Bad people doing bad things must be brought to light because bullies continue to bully when we stay silent.

I worked for a dishonest CEO bully in a start up. I went to a member of the BOD and told him the CEO was a crook and a bully. They listened to him instead of me and it cost them millions of their own money. DH and I were the first laid off when times got tough but I never regretted trying to warn them. It was the right thing to do. When I got a call a year ago from a headhunter involved with the placement of bully boss in a new position, I told him the truth which was the boss was dishonest and a bully. He got my name through his own research because the story bully boss was telling didn't quite add up.

I don't know whether other start up folks also told the truth about bully boss but my conscience was clear that no one would lose money and no one would be tormented because I did not have the courage to tell the truth.

 

[easysurfer]

Is this like the Catholic priest situation? "I don't want to rock the boat, let the other guy do it." People get hurt when good people don't speak up. Bad people doing bad things must be brought to light because bullies continue to bully when we stay silent.

I worked for a dishonest CEO bully in a start up. I went to a member of the BOD and told him the CEO was a crook and a bully. They listened to him instead of me and it cost them millions of their own money. DH and I were the first laid off when times got tough but I never regretted trying to warn them. It was the right thing to do. When I got a call a year ago from a headhunter involved with the placement of bully boss in a new position, I told him the truth which was the boss was dishonest and a bully. He got my name through his own research because the story bully boss was telling didn't quite add up.

I don't know whether other start up folks also told the truth about bully boss but my conscience was clear that no one would lose money and no one would be tormented because I did not have the courage to tell the truth.

Sounds a lot like Karma in the works here

Had a similar situation, but in a much smaller context. Have a SIL who used to work for HR at a place who interviewed a jerk applicant who listed the same place of work which I worked at. When she saw inquired about the applicant's character, it sure felt good giving her my opinion about what a bad applicant he is and in now way hire him.

Sometimes things to balance out.

 

[lets-retire]

Your situation sounds very similar to one the DW had a few months ago. One of her subordinates came to her about the hostile work environment. The DW being the persons manager listened and knew exactly what her subordinate was talking about. Due to the verbiage her subordinate used the DW went to HR to discuss the situation in an unofficial capacity. HR advised her that they had receive many unofficial complaints about her boss, but since nobody would make an official complaint nothing could be done. Since the DW doesn't need the job, she decided to put it out to her subordinates that she was collecting letters for HR about the bad work environment. She let them know that they could write up anything they wanted and make it anonymous if they wished. She told her subordinates to place anything they wish to write up in a sealed envelope and either give it to her or come up with one of the co-workers to take up a collection, but either way she would walk any letters given to her to HR on a specific date. Before the date arrived her BB came to her office and started asking questions (there's a mole in HR). Her BB said he had talked with the three other managers in the department and they all said about the same thing. The DW did check with the other managers and the BB's story as confirmed. Once all of the letters were turned in and a formal complaint was made the BB met with the DW and asked for her recommendation (fire the boss or put her on an improvement plan). The DW seeing an opportunity to keep things civil said she thinks and improvement plan would be the better of the two choices. The end result things have marginally improved. The DW's boss was promoted in the latest reorganization, and the DW received a pay raise so she almost makes as much as some of her subordinates on a yearly basis. Hourly she is still $3-4 per hour behind just about all of her subordinates.

A little background on the DW's job. She works in a mortgage department at a large local bank. She is a first line manager who works approx 50 hours per week during the work week. She also frequently brings her computer home on the weekends so she can complete her work for the week. She has asked several times for an increase in personnel, because she has become the dumping ground for a lot of small jobs. All requests have been denied. One person (not in the DW's line of supervision) has received three promotions this year. The increased responsibility for those promotions gets dumped on the DW because the person receiving the promotions doesn't have time to do her job. The hierarchy at her work is supposed to be more of the military style, but the way it has worked is anybody who is in a higher position has been able to tell anybody in a lower position what to do. This has led to conflicting directions, procedures, and processes in the same office. The organization is not that large in the grand scheme of things, but they officially have three different processes for doing one job, one for each center.

 

[Midpack]

Well, no meeting today either...
...in which case I am just going to ignore the situation, keep my head down and discreetly job hunt. Should I speak to EA to clarify who is expected to initiate the meeting? NO "BB wants to talk to you next week" were her words. No....I think I will just ignore this and hope it goes away.

I'll reiterate my original recommendation. If you're job hunting, I can't see any upside to meeting with BB now even if she initiaties a meeting - and a huge potential downside. Save it for your exit interview, after you've found a new job and given notice. You can share your thoughts with 'too late for me, but maybe it'll prevent another defection' as your 'motivation.'