Plight of older people

[Calico]

https://youtu.be/VKoYHFVBpEA

Thanks for posting that. Prine is one of the greatest. I saw him live in the early 70's in Illinois with Kristofferson. Been a fan ever since.

Edited to add: He was just 25 when he wrote "Hello in There." He must have been born an old soul.

 

[SoReadyToRetire]

What a sobering post. This is EXACTLY why I'm so hesitant about retiring from a fairly high-paying job just because I want to!

I have 2 sisters who were widowed quite young. One teeters on the brink of poverty in a very old house--can't work due to health issues--and the other is kind of a hoarder so can't sell the too-big house she and her husband bought when they had 4 kids because she can't bear to let go of all her "stuff". It's terrifying.

And then there's my alcoholic brother who lives with my 86 year old mother and is likely selling stuff out from underneath her ... he makes plenty of money yet never has a dime because alcohol, cigarettes and lottery tickets are necessary to get him through the miserable days he created for himself by having a son with a vengeful crackhead. Again--terrifying.

So here I am, with about $900K saved, but still working because I see myself maybe having to help support them in the not-so-distant future, despite being terrified that my memory is rapidly going and by the time I actually work up the courage to quit/retire, I won't even remember who I am. And that's no joke.

 

[Amethyst]

I'm so sorry. But glad the grandkids seem to be off to a good start. Hopefully they can learn from their parents' unfortunate stories.

Interestingly, my dad, who in my memory (I came along late; by then he was already in his 50's) was a laser-straight arrow, always said he'd been a terrible teenager and young man. He told specific stories about the terribleness, and urged us kids not to do any of those things. And we didn't. We made our own mistakes, but not any of his!

Actually, no, they were both young and married, each with a child. Both went downhill in the mid 1990's. They just started making worse and worse decisions. Both are divorced and have been for 6 or 7 years. Sad.

The grandkids turned out ok and finished college with careers started.

 

[Nemo2]

"But that was a long time and no matter how I try
The years just flow by like a broken down dam."

 

[Chuckanut]

In my old hometown, a perennial “worst of” kind o place, many in our age cohort are raising grandkids, because their own children are addicted to, or dead from, opiates and meth.

I saw all to much of that during my teaching years.

 

[armor99]

It’s so easy to judge others when we don’t know what’s really going on with them. Have you considered that he may have Aspergers? I know people/have family members who are on the autism spectrum (high functioning) who have such extreme anxiety, depression, OCD, bipolar and in some cases chronic conditions like Crohn’s disease. These are all comorbidities associated with autism. Every autistic person is different. However, these conditions affect them at an exponentially higher rate.

Most people, as the person you described, have so many issues that make normal life functioning a huge challenge. Unless we’ve walked in their shoes, we don’t know that it’s just laziness.

I can see that you want to think the best of people... and that is admirable. I knew and have know this guy for many decades... and I can assure you there is NOTHING physically or mentally wrong with him. There a MANY such people in the US. He has low ambition in life, and he is fed everyday, has a place to sleep, so why should he do more. It is an alien concept for me.... but some truly choose to live this way....

 

[mpeirce]

There a MANY such people in the US. He has low ambition in life, and he is fed everyday, has a place to sleep, so why should he do more. It is an alien concept for me.... but some truly choose to live this way....

That's what worries me about ideas like universal basic income.

 

[Music Lover]

I can see that you want to think the best of people... and that is admirable. I knew and have know this guy for many decades... and I can assure you there is NOTHING physically or mentally wrong with him. There a MANY such people in the US. He has low ambition in life, and he is fed everyday, has a place to sleep, so why should he do more. It is an alien concept for me.... but some truly choose to live this way....

The realistic alternative for many people like that is to work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year at a job they don't like with the end result being a slightly nicer and larger place and slightly nicer stuff. It's not surprising that some of them don't see much of an upside.

 

[timo2]

That's what worries me about ideas like universal basic income.

Apparently not having universal income has not enticed this person to work either, so it is probably a non-factor. When these guys get older, they will be in the 'plight of older people' category.

IIRC Universal income was initially proposed by fiscal conservatives to group all federal government assistance programs together (including SS) to centralize and reduce the bureaucratic overhead of administering the programs. Including SS will is the 'poison pill' of any of these proposals, so we don't have to worry about any Universal income in of the lifetimes of most of us.

 

[Calico]

"But that was a long time and no matter how I try
The years just flow by like a broken down dam."

"Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
To believe in this living is just a hard way to go"


He is a poet, no doubt about it.

 

[youbet]

A second public service announcement, if I may. In many states, the office of the state attorney general has a charities division that regulates and supervises charities seeking to raise funds in the state. If you believe that someone is conducting a charitable scam, please take a minute to report them to your attorney general. They all have websites to do that.

Here are a few links:

New York -- https://www.charitiesnys.com/complaints_new.html
Texas -- https://www.texasattorneygeneral.go...haritable-trusts/charitable-trusts-complaints
California -- https://oag.ca.gov/charities/complaints
Florida -- Florida Attorney General - How to Protect Yourself: Charitable Solicitations
Illinois -- Illinois Attorney General - Building Better Charities

I got a kick out of the Illinois web site. Sure sounds good! But it's pretty well documented that from time time and varying by the particular state, county or local gov't body, government is sometimes the biggest scammer and example of inefficiency in our state, the home of graft and corruption.

 

[youbet]

The realistic alternative for many people like that is to work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year at a job they don't like with the end result being a slightly nicer and larger place and slightly nicer stuff. It's not surprising that some of them don't see much of an upside.

I think there is a lot of truth to that. In our local economy and political climate here in the Chicago area, it seems the incremental improvement in living conditions brought about by working full time at a minimum wage job vs. being on the dole is minimal once the expenses of holding the job are accounted for.

 

[timo2]

I think there is a lot of truth to that. In our local economy and political climate here in the Chicago area, it seems the incremental improvement in living conditions brought about by working full time at a minimum wage job vs. being on the dole is minimal once the expenses of holding the job are accounted for.

To add on to the validity of your statement, from the article: "44% of all workers ages 18 to 64 in the U.S.—earn low hourly wages..... The low-quality jobs offer an average of 24.6 hours of work per week at $14.65 an hour, which is $360 per week.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackke...this-really-a-strong-job-market/#16ddf62c4fd1

 

[mpeirce]

Apparently not having universal income has not enticed this person to work either, so it is probably a non-factor.

For that person.

I know a number of folks who could have easily slid into this category, but didn't. Having "enough to get by" - especially if they had lots of roommates in a low COL area and they'd have checked out of life.

 

[Rianne]

To add on to the validity of your statement, from the article: "44% of all workers ages 18 to 64 in the U.S.—earn low hourly wages..... The low-quality jobs offer an average of 24.6 hours of work per week at $14.65 an hour, which is $360 per week.

How is that possible? What numbers are accurate?


"In November, average hourly earnings for all employees on private nonfarm payrolls rose by 7 cents to $28.29. Over the last 12 months, average hourly earnings have increased by 3.1 percent. In November, average hourly earnings of private-sector production and nonsupervisory employees rose by 7 cents to $23.83. (See tables B-3 and B-8."


https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

 

[armor99]

The realistic alternative for many people like that is to work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year at a job they don't like with the end result being a slightly nicer and larger place and slightly nicer stuff. It's not surprising that some of them don't see much of an upside.

Why? Because most people are incompetent? They are mental children unable to devise a plan to get to a better way of life, and sticking with it?

Don’t get me wrong... I am just a lazy as the next person. But I have “earned my laziness” when I am lazy, it affects no one but myself. I do not live at the expense of other people. Because I actually have respect for others.

The guy I was referring to, has leeched off of his father for decades. I would feel a deep sense of shame doing that. He was, and is not un-intelligent, but is completely unmotivated. His life ( or the window I have seen into it from FB) , is the life of a small child. Unable to grasp adult concepts because he has never needed to.

Part of being an “adult”, often means having to do things you do not like. In my career there have been many weeks where I had not seen the sun all day, due to an early morning and late evening. Not so much any more, but I paid a price for that.

I believe that most people, most of the time can create a good life for themselves here in the US. But being a go getter is sort of a pre requisite to that.

 

[FI_RElater]

the median would have been much lower

How is that possible? What numbers are accurate?


"In November, average hourly earnings for all employees on private nonfarm payrolls rose by 7 cents to $28.29. Over the last 12 months, average hourly earnings have increased by 3.1 percent. In November, average hourly earnings of private-sector production and nonsupervisory employees rose by 7 cents to $23.83. (See tables B-3 and B-8."


https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

sorta reminds me of that joke about the average income when either Buffett or Gates walks into a bar....

 

[timo2]

Why? Because most people are incompetent? They are mental children unable to devise a plan to get to a better way of life, and sticking with it?

Don’t get me wrong... I am just a lazy as the next person. But I have “earned my laziness” when I am lazy, it affects no one but myself. I do not live at the expense of other people. Because I actually have respect for others.

The guy I was referring to, has leeched off of his father for decades. I would feel a deep sense of shame doing that. He was, and is not un-intelligent, but is completely unmotivated. His life ( or the window I have seen into it from FB) , is the life of a small child. Unable to grasp adult concepts because he has never needed to.

Part of being an “adult”, often means having to do things you do not like. In my career there have been many weeks where I had not seen the sun all day, due to an early morning and late evening. Not so much any more, but I paid a price for that.

I believe that most people, most of the time can create a good life for themselves here in the US. But being a go getter is sort of a pre requisite to that.

+1
Clearly most of us here don't understand the slackers.

 

[Chuckanut]

I think there is a lot of truth to that. In our local economy and political climate here in the Chicago area, it seems the incremental improvement in living conditions brought about by working full time at a minimum wage job vs. being on the dole is minimal once the expenses of holding the job are accounted for.

If one has to pay for child care, most low wage jobs are simply not worth it. Add in the possible loss of food stamps (or whatever they are called these days), and the net result can be negative.

I read an article a while back that said the highest marginal 'tax' rate on wages in our country is on poor people who get a job. Granted it's not taxes they pay, but they pay dearly in lost benefits. Surely, some way can be found to decrease benefits on a sliding scale that preserves the incentives of working for a living.

 

[armor99]

I think there is a lot of truth to that. In our local economy and political climate here in the Chicago area, it seems the incremental improvement in living conditions brought about by working full time at a minimum wage job vs. being on the dole is minimal once the expenses of holding the job are accounted for.

It is an interesting thought experiment, and a bit of a rorschach test to think about what would happen if your suddenly gave 1000 people at random enough money to pay for their basic living expenses every month.

Would people use that extra time to better themselves? Take classes, gain degrees to get better jobs, create inventions and works of art because they suddenly do not have the financial pressure to earn a living?

Or, would they sit around and play Xbox all day?

I guess it sorta depends upon the person. I know for myself, I might play Xbox for a month or so. But I also know at some point I would HAVE to start doing something more productive. Just part of my DNA. I do not believe many people are like me though.

I tend to believe that only the threat of homelessness or starvation, motivates most people to work....

 

[HFWR]

Some work hard, to the best of their abilities, and still have little to show for it. Some are incapable, for various reasons, of doing even that.

Calling everyone of minimal means “lazy” is intellectually lazy...

 

[youbet]

Some work hard, to the best of their abilities, and still have little to show for it. Some are incapable, for various reasons, of doing even that.

Calling everyone of minimal means “lazy” is intellectually lazy...

+1. But what would chat boards like this be were it not for gross generalizations and anecdotal examples.........

 

[Calico]

Some work hard, to the best of their abilities, and still have little to show for it. Some are incapable, for various reasons, of doing even that.

Calling everyone of minimal means “lazy” is intellectually lazy...

Indeed.

 

[Go-NoGo]

It is an interesting thought experiment, and a bit of a rorschach test to think about what would happen if your suddenly gave 1000 people at random enough money to pay for their basic living expenses every month.

Finland tried this: from January 2017 to December 2018, 2,000 unemployed people in Finland received an unconditional monthly payment of €560 ($634) instead of their usual unemployment benefit (a similar sum). The goal was to see if this would help them get back to work. The pilot found that basic income recipients were no more likely to find work than a control group who did not receive the payments.

Basically the people receiving basic income were happier than the control group - but this did not translate to a greater employment rate - free beer money, what's not to like !

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019...basic-income-experiment-are-in-is-it-working/

 

[NW-Bound]

What I learn from this thread is John Prine, an obviously well-known artist, but I never ran across his music. Hmm...

"But that was a long time and no matter how I try
The years just flow by like a broken down dam."

Just researched this song, and found many covered it. Again, somehow I never heard it.