Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV)

I'm wondering how efficient an ICE engine design could be that runs at a fixed RPM, driving a generator to charge the battery. It may be, it can only be optimizes for highway speeds. I see this quote, "At 60 mph, a typical car needs 10 to 20 horsepower" So, I would think an optimized 30hp engine could driving a generator and allow an efficient use of gasoline to go long distances. A 30 horsepower ICE engine would allow a 66% conversion efficiency from gas to battery to electric motor drive. I think the conversion is higher than 66%. The obvious, is why not use the 30HP to drive the car directly, my answer would be the 30HP engine has been optimized to run a a fixed RPM and "hopefully" it's efficiency is high enough to the conversion inefficiency. There is the problem of carrying the weight of the fuel, but even 5 gallons at 40mpg will get you and extra 200 miles.

This is over my pay grade, but interested in discussion. I may be all wet on the idea that a fixed rpm ice engine could be optimized for high fuel efficiency and conversion efficiency.



I think there are weight issues that degrade the theoretical benefits. IOW, you need more heavy batteries, and bigger electric motors, etc.

Toyota can get 50 mpg from a good sized Camry. My first Camry (not a hybrid) averaged 26 mpg and I could hit 34 mpg on a long drive on a flat highway. My guess is that if a constantly running engine was more efficient in real world conditions, Toyota would have done it.
 
IIRC, Tesla (at least) can communicate with their EVs. They can update software and (apparently) unlock upgrades that you pay for later (that were already there but not activated.) Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.



Now, whether Tesla can turn off your vehicle and lock it out, or whether they could do some of the things your conspiracy theorist alleges, I doubt, but do not know. CLEARLY, they could at least learn to do some of those things as pretty much the entire car functions from the software which Tesla has access to.



So far, no gummint involved. Until they want to be.


I would be more afraid that bad guys would hack the online update ability, and use it to cripple my car. Then I get an email - Mr Chuckanut send me $4000 in crypto and I will unlock your Burper 200 sedan and make it drivable again.

Hacking online devices of all types is now a big business.
 
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If you are primarily concerned with economics, you must address the cost of fuel for the PHEV-- the electricity-- when in electric mode. If you pay $0.15/kwh or so for electricity, like we do in California, the fuel cost while running on electricity will compete with the fuel cost of running on gasoline. This becomes particularly important on a trip on highways at high speed, where air resistance and lack of use of regenerative braking will greatly degrade the distance per kwh. Specifics vary according to the gasoline miles per gallon and MPGe of the specific car under consideration.

The other thing rarely mentioned in comparisons is the replacement cost for the batteries which will need to be done much sooner than a typical ICE engine replacement would need to be done.
 
I'm wondering how efficient an ICE engine design could be that runs at a fixed RPM, driving a generator to charge the battery. It may be, it can only be optimizes for highway speeds. I see this quote, "At 60 mph, a typical car needs 10 to 20 horsepower" So, I would think an optimized 30hp engine could driving a generator and allow an efficient use of gasoline to go long distances. A 30 horsepower ICE engine would allow a 66% conversion efficiency from gas to battery to electric motor drive. I think the conversion is higher than 66%. The obvious, is why not use the 30HP to drive the car directly, my answer would be the 30HP engine has been optimized to run a a fixed RPM and "hopefully" it's efficiency is high enough to the conversion inefficiency. There is the problem of carrying the weight of the fuel, but even 5 gallons at 40mpg will get you and extra 200 miles.

This is over my pay grade, but interested in discussion. I may be all wet on the idea that a fixed rpm ice engine could be optimized for high fuel efficiency and conversion efficiency.

I've always thought this would be an ideal set up. The concept does not fit in with the current "make everything all electric." In essence, it would be a way to increase fuel mileage. Period.

Some tweaks to your car:

Use a diesel which is much more fuel efficient - especially at it's peak efficiency. The diesel is either on or off depending upon the state of the battery. As soon as the engine starts, it goes to its most efficient operating rpm. It's of course possible that the extra cost of the diesel fuel would negate it's significantly better fuel efficiency. (Details, details.:popcorn:)

In any case, use whatever fossil fuel engine only to charge the battery - no complicated dual drive. Optimize the electric motor for average acceleration and top speed. Not a "ludicrous" acceleration setting- just a daily driver like a Corolla. (Heh, heh, we'll w*rk on the sports version next time.:LOL:)

The battery could be quite small. Essentially, the battery is a "buffer" which allows a 30 HP engine to drive a car that would usually need a peak power of (let's say 160 HP.)

Of course, you could use a 20 KW hour battery and even have plug in capability - but I think that's over kill for this project.

Regen - obviously, maybe even 1 pedal driving.

WEIGHT - I submit that removing a standard 4 cylinder (160 HP) engine and replace with 20KW hour battery, 160 HP electric motor, and adding a 30 HP diesel plus fuel would be within 100 pounds or so of the original (I have no actual data.) Keep in mind that weight (within reason) affects mpg due to acceleration, not constant speed (on the road.) BUT because of regen, what you accelerate, you recapture when you stop (which is why hybrids often do better in town with stop and go than on the highway where the battery is not really doing anything but a bit of charging or quick boost for passing.)

Optimizing the setup would make a big difference over you or I finding a shelf diesel and shelf electric motor. Present this challenge to Toyota and I think it would w*rk - and w*rk well.

Downside would be that one could actually exceed the car's battery by doing (for instance) Stop Light Grand Prix. (Don't know why you would in essentially a 'Corolla.'

I'm sure car companies have thought of this. Maybe they've tried it and it doesn't w*rk. But it just seems like it SHOULD w*rk. Probably, that's the difference between our "pipe-smoke speculation" and rubber meeting the road.

Fun to speculate.
 
I would be more afraid that bad guys would hack the online update ability, and use it to cripple my car. Then I get an email - Mr Chuckanut send me $4000 in crypto and I will unlock your Burper 200 sedan and make it drivable again.

Hacking online devices of all types is now a big business.

Heh, heh, just to put it in the perspective of the paranoid guy in the original post: Anything a hacker can do, a gummint can do better.
 
I'm wondering how efficient an ICE engine design could be that runs at a fixed RPM, driving a generator to charge the battery. It may be, it can only be optimizes for highway speeds. I see this quote, "At 60 mph, a typical car needs 10 to 20 horsepower" So, I would think an optimized 30hp engine could driving a generator and allow an efficient use of gasoline to go long distances. A 30 horsepower ICE engine would allow a 66% conversion efficiency from gas to battery to electric motor drive. I think the conversion is higher than 66%. The obvious, is why not use the 30HP to drive the car directly, my answer would be the 30HP engine has been optimized to run a a fixed RPM and "hopefully" it's efficiency is high enough to the conversion inefficiency. There is the problem of carrying the weight of the fuel, but even 5 gallons at 40mpg will get you and extra 200 miles.

This is over my pay grade, but interested in discussion. I may be all wet on the idea that a fixed rpm ice engine could be optimized for high fuel efficiency and conversion efficiency.

Believe it or not, that's exactly how the Chevrolet Volt works. It's a plug in electric vehicle. When the battery runs down during driving, a gasoline motor comes on and drives a generator to recharge the battery.
 
IIRC, Tesla (at least) can communicate with their EVs. They can update software and (apparently) unlock upgrades that you pay for later (that were already there but not activated.) Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Now, whether Tesla can turn off your vehicle and lock it out, or whether they could do some of the things your conspiracy theorist alleges, I doubt, but do not know. CLEARLY, they could at least learn to do some of those things as pretty much the entire car functions from the software which Tesla has access to.

So far, no gummint involved. Until they want to be.
No need to have electric vehicle to be remotely shut off. Any vehicle with onstar can be remotely shut down. Police requests have done so.
As for limiting areas to drive in, am sure it is possible, will it be done? Time will tell.
Heck recently Amazon locked some guy out of his smart house's smart gizmos. https://www.foxbusiness.com/technol...rt-home-devices-over-bogus-racism-allegations

Never underestimate the nefarius things possible by gummint or private industry.

See a poster's favorite tag line about anything that can be used can be misused.
 
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Time2 and Koolau I like this style of hybrid, the tweek I would add is to make the ICE a direct injection LNG fueled which would be the cleanest exhaust for what we could achieve with current technology.
 
In any case, use whatever fossil fuel engine only to charge the battery - no complicated dual drive. Optimize the electric motor for average acceleration and top speed. Not a "ludicrous" acceleration setting- just a daily driver like a Corolla. (Heh, heh, we'll w*rk on the sports version next time.:LOL:)

The battery could be quite small. Essentially, the battery is a "buffer" which allows a 30 HP engine to drive a car that would usually need a peak power of (let's say 160 HP.)

Of course, you could use a 20 KW hour battery and even have plug in capability - but I think that's over kill for this project.


This is the approach that Nissan have taken with their latest large 7 seat SUV, the X-Trail. The ICE is only there to charge the batteries that power the electric motors.

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/nissan-x-trail-e-power-review-2023/
 
The term for those is inline hybrid. I think the Volt was a huge success with that.
 
The term for those is inline hybrid. I think the Volt was a huge success with that.


Oh geez, I thought I was going leave a legacy for my great great great grandchildren, with the idea!
 
Time2 and Koolau I like this style of hybrid, the tweek I would add is to make the ICE a direct injection LNG fueled which would be the cleanest exhaust for what we could achieve with current technology.

Sorry, I'm not up on LNG in cars. I thought they only used tanks with nat gas at 10,000 psi (690 bar.) LNG would be great for giving a good range.
 
In a perfect situation the economy would be great, the problem with LNG is it has to be used frequently to keep the the tank cool enough, otherwise some gas is released for cooling purposes to keep the NG liquid. To me it would be good for commercial trucking or maybe RV that could use the gas being vented to heat water or for a furnace or refrigeration.
 
In a perfect situation the economy would be great, the problem with LNG is it has to be used frequently to keep the the tank cool enough, otherwise some gas is released for cooling purposes to keep the NG liquid. To me it would be good for commercial trucking or maybe RV that could use the gas being vented to heat water or for a furnace or refrigeration.

And releasing nat gas is really bad for global warming IIRC. So, imagine a car sitting in your drive way and every couple of hours, it flares off some natural gas.
 
And releasing nat gas is really bad for global warming IIRC. So, imagine a car sitting in your drive way and every couple of hours, it flares off some natural gas.

My mum used to say the same thing about my father …
 
My wife and I share a 2017 Ford C-Max plug-in hybrid. We paid $11.5K cash for it in September 2020, height of the pandemic, after our Prius' catalytic converter got swiped. We LOVE it. It goes only 20 miles on the battery in the summer, about 10 in the winter, but we live in an urban center and don't drive a ton. We fill the tank about four times a year. Love it.
 
Back in the 1970s, I thought the "idea" of a Series Hybrid was pretty neat.

The definition of a Series Hybrid is an internal combustion engine driving a generator, which then drives an electric motor. A battery might be inserted into the idea to allow some power buffering. The ICE usually runs at a constant RPM, and is thought to be more efficient that way.

The trouble is in the reality... Too many energy conversions, losses at each conversion - Gas to mechanical energy, mechanical to electrical energy, electrical energy back to mechanical.

Now let's look at that "optimized for constant RPM engine". Constant RPM engines are all over the place. No magic. You may have more than one at your house. Gas engine lawn mower, lawn tractor, most (not all) AC generators, etc. The lawn equipment is governed to 3600 RPM unless you back off the throttle. The AC generators run at 3600 or 1800 RPM depending on design. None of these have a constant load. The governor opens/closes the carb throttle plate to keep RPM at the governed speed as it drives the changing load.
The engine in a Series Hybrid has to do the same. The load on its generator is certainly not constant. There is no big magic increase in chemical to mechanical energy efficiency there.

The Chevy Volt - The Volt is an EV with an on-board gas-powered battery recharger. It's claim to fame is running in EV mode, and then a way to travel additional miles after you ran the battery down. If the battery is discharged, it becomes a Series Hybrid.

Speaking of the Volt, some may remember the big brouhaha that came out of EV purists when they discovered that, gasp, the Volt, in certain conditions, actually has the gas engine driving the wheels directly! Oh shame! (yes, I'm being sarcastic about the big to-do over that).
The mode was running down a highway at speed, level or near-level road. I read that directly coupling in mechanical power from the gas engine in that situation, improved overall efficiency and overall range. While running in that mode, it acts like a Parallel Hybrid.

One more thought about Series Hybrids - The concept DOES have a use - They are in operation all over, have been for many years. Pulling very heavy loads. "Diesel", actually Diesel Electric locomotives. A diesel engine drives a generator, which drives the electric motors. No batteries. The engine throttle is adjusted to match the load and the desired speed. A 16-notch manual throttle control was the most common. On winter nights, when most of the vegetation is gone, I can hear freight trains notching up throttle in the distance, to head up a slight grade, after leaving lower-speed blocks.
The whole purpose of Diesel Electric is that no mechanical transmission is needed. Mechanical transmissions in high power applications are a real problem!
A lot of mining equipment is also Diesel Electric for the same reason. For some, the piece of equipment is all electric, and has a big "extension cord" plugged into a wheeled parked big Diesel-powered generator unit (don't run over or cut that cord!:) ).
 
The term for those is inline hybrid. I think the Volt was a huge success with that.
Huge success? Despite a $7500 tax credit, sales of the Volt peaked at about 20K/yr, and it was discontinued in 2019…
The Chevrolet Volt is extremely complex and expensive to build, and its supply chain looked like someone threw a pile of spaghetti noodles onto a map of Michigan that spilled off onto the rest of the Midwest. These complicated supply chains made it difficult to build Volts profitably, and as a low-volume, low-margin vehicle, it was destined for the chopping block.

The only thing that was saving the Volt from what would have normally been an easy decision to cancel the program were the zero emission vehicle (ZEV) credits that offset GM's cost for building the Volt. However, even if Corporate Average Fleet Economy (CAFE) standards and ZEV credit system remain in place (which is no longer even certain), a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) such as the Volt provides GM with increasingly fewer ZEV credits over time. Essentially, as ZEV requirements become stricter, the financial benefits GM sees from building PHEVs decreases.
https://www.torquenews.com/8861/gm-was-right-stop-making-chevrolet-volt
 
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The term for those is inline hybrid. I think the Volt was a huge success with that.

Huge success in terms of meeting its stated goals, being a good "car" and making the Feds happy. What could be better (or more successful) than that? Oh, yeah. Making money for GM which it didn't do. What do they say? 2 outa 3 ain't bad.
 
It was the first inline hybrid of that type and it worked and still works well. I have a different view of success I guess.
The first gen Honda Insight was a fantastic technological advance, but sales were also dismal. That does not take away from all the advances that it presented. It delivered advances in aerodynamics, weight reduction, and hybrid technology.
The fans of that first gen are still driving them and figuring out ways to keep them going.
I can't get comfortable in one, personally.
 
It was the first inline hybrid of that type and it worked and still works well. I have a different view of success I guess.
GM and the overwhelming number of potential customers didn't consider it a success, but you're entitled to conclude as you wish. And while others built on the concept of the original Insight and it led to better versions, no one has built on the "inline (series) hybrid" concept yet...
 
I like the idea of a plug in hybrid but when I run the numbers with the $11,865 difference between the RAV4 Prime and RAV4 hybrid it doesn't make sense. The shift to taxing by miles rather than per gallon of gas won't help.
 
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