Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV)

[Koolau]

I like the idea of a plug in hybrid but when I run the numbers with the $11,865 difference between the RAV4 Prime and RAV4 hybrid it doesn't make sense. The shift to taxing by miles rather than per gallon of gas won't help.

So do plug-in people get charged twice for road tax? Gas tax plus miles driven? I hope not. That might be the end of plug ins - IMHO the best compromise between ICE-only and full on EVs.

 

[zinger1457]

I like the idea of a plug in hybrid but when I run the numbers with the $11,865 difference between the RAV4 Prime and RAV4 hybrid it doesn't make sense. The shift to taxing by miles rather than per gallon of gas won't help.

Out here even if you wanted a Rav4 Prime they are next to impossible to find, Toyota, like Hyundai, was restricting sales of PHEV's to certain states, not sure if they still are. Have seen used ones going for crazy prices, way over the MSRP for a new one.

 

[Chuckanut]

So do plug-in people get charged twice for road tax? Gas tax plus miles driven? I hope not. .

Hang on. In a few years WA state will ask for volunteers to pay road usage taxes instead of gas tax. How they will handle the gas tax paid at the pump is unknown. But, we will find out.

 

[Masquernom]

Out here even if you wanted a Rav4 Prime they are next to impossible to find, Toyota, like Hyundai, was restricting sales of PHEV's to certain states, not sure if they still are. Have seen used ones going for crazy prices, way over the MSRP for a new one.

Yeah, same thing in Kentucky. Not a state on any mfg list to sell plug in hybrids yet. Last time I asked the local Toyota dealer, they wanted a deposit to put you on the Rav 4 Prime list, and it was MSRP + $10,000 to get one.

I'm happy our existing ICE autos should last several more years. I'll wait for the solid state batteries to become comon if possible.

 

[EastWest Gal]

We got a runaround when trying to purchase a Prius Prime last year. Toyota says it's available in all states, but the dealers say no. We finally ordered a Prius AWD in April of 2022, and took delivery of a 2023 model for the 2022 price last week, a 14-month wait for a car.

I actually believe the dealer, since why would they want to wait 14 months to make a sale at last year's price? Also, the dealer's website says there is only one in stock with sale pending, whereas Toyota's website says there are a bunch in stock. I've seen their lot-they are quite empty of inventory.

We have our eye on buying a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV when our old Dodge Caravan finally dies.

 

[ERD50]

GM and the overwhelming number of potential customers didn't consider it a success, but you're entitled to conclude as you wish. And while others built on the concept of the original Insight and it led to better versions, no one has built on the "inline (series) hybrid" concept yet...

To be clear, the Chevy Volt (confusing, the "Bolt" is the BEV) was not a 'pure', "inline (series) hybrid" . The ICE would (under certain conditions) put energy to the drive wheels mechanically.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about that from many sources.

This forum thread:

https://www.gm-volt.com/threads/ice-direct-drive.286769/

demonstrates the confusion, apparently some difference between Gen 1 and 2, apparently GM not explaining it much, and people reading into what was said (the algorithm might be fairly complex, and they'd be accused of 'lying' when people misunderstand? - or they might change it?).

For those wondering what this is all about, in a 'pure' series hybrid, the ICE only ever drives a generator to charge the batteries and/or power the electric motor. There is no mechanical connection between ICE and wheels. This keeps things simple, but for cruising along, w/o significant acceleration/braking (where the electric motor excels at providing torque for acceleration or regenerative braking for efficiency), it means you are losing efficiency by converting mechanical energy (ICE) to electrical energy (generator/alternator) and back into mechanical energy (electrical drive motor). Probably 10~15%, maybe ~ 20%? So coupling the ICE to the wheels under certain conditions improves overall efficiency.

That's why you are unlikely to ever see a production 'pure' series-hybrid for a passenger car (not since the 1916 Owen Magnetic Tourer , I think).

-ERD50

 

[explanade]

Toyota has dragged their feet for years on EVs, particularly EV batteries.

They even lobbied against BEVs.

They bet more on fuel cell cars and also their whole ICE supply chain, which includes a lot of small suppliers, is an ecosystem with a lot of inertia to change or being dismantled.

Too many businesses and workers depend on it.

So they didn't source enough battery capacity to churn out a lot of RAV4 Primes -- one dealer put like a $40-50k dealer markup, so like $95k price, during 2021. I believe their first year allocation in the US was like 5000 cards. Their first EVs, under Toyota and Lexus brands, have been received poorly, barely 200 mile range for the Toyota and under 200 mile for the Lexus.

They recently announced they are changing strategy. They tout they will have things like solid state batteries by the end of the decade.

 

[RetMD21]

I am late to understanding the US tax credits but apparently you only get the credit if the PHEV has a battery at least 7 KWH i size with an additional $417 subsidy for every KWH above 7 so 18 KWH would more of less max out the subsidy. Of course the assembly location, battery minerals, and battery component criteria must be met. If built the 200 km Toyota PHEVs will require 40-50 KWH batteries!

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after

 

[Zathras]

I am late to understanding the US tax credits but apparently you only get the credit if the PHEV has a battery at least 7 KWH i size with an additional $417 subsidy for every KWH above 7 so 18 KWH would more of less max out the subsidy. Of course the assembly location, battery minerals, and battery component criteria must be met. If built the 200 km Toyota PHEVs will require 40-50 KWH batteries!

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after

There are also additional requirements for vehicle cost, and buyer income.
However, I have heard most of these requirements don’t apply if you are leasing.

 

[RetMD21]

A 200 km electric range is not a reasonable design metric.
What most people need is a grocery getter that does not use fuel and a 30 km range more than does that.

I can't fault Toyota for building them if that's what people want. It occurred to me that I could buy a used first generation LEAF and a hybrid RAV4 for the cost of the elusive RAV4 PHEV

 

[zinger1457]

Started doing some research on PHEV's with the idea of possibly buying one and have to agree with RetMD21, just doesn't make financial sense in most cases based on the cost of a PHEV compared to the same 'gas only' model. Most PHEV's seem to add about $10K to the cost, so if no tax credit is available the pay back time is 10 years or more for most of the models I've looked at. The RAV4 Prime was the worst, I calculated more than 15 years to make up the difference in price based on my driving, ~15K miles/year. The Lexus RX PHEV wasn't much better. The only PHEV I looked at that I might consider was BMW X5 PHEV, about a $3K delta in price after the tax credit, so the numbers weren't so bad.

 

[REWahoo]

Started doing some research on PHEV's with the idea of possibly buying one and have to agree with RetMD21, just doesn't make financial sense in most cases based on the cost of a PHEV compared to the same 'gas only' model. Most PHEV's seem to add about $10K to the cost, so if no tax credit is available the pay back time is 10 years or more for most of the models I've looked at.

This is why I didn't consider a PHEV when looking for a new SUV a couple of years ago and went with a non-plug in hybrid instead. The price premium for a PHEV simply wasn't worth it.

That isn't the case when you drop the "P" and look at a hybrid only version. They are priced $1,000 to $3,000 more than ICE only models which for most (but not all) will let you realize a payback in under three years. We purchased a Highlander hybrid that CR tests show averages 35 mpg vs the ICE only Highlander that CR says has an average of 22 mpg. Easy to see the payback potential there.

 

[JohnnyBGoode]

If it comes down to dollars and cents, then you are certainly correct. I waited 18 months for my Rav4 Prime because I wouldn't pay more than MSRP. I've been to the gas station 6 times over the past year, and my tank was only half empty each time. With the tax rebate of $7500, the price premium wasn't too much for me and I love bopping around on electric 99% of the time - which is how it works given my driving habits.

That being said, PHEV are clearly a transitional vehicle. I expect I will be able to sell this car in a few years and recoup the price premium.

It is also a bit of a slippery slope to try to cost-justify which model of a new car one should buy. Because if you were really trying to maximize every dollar you should just buy a 10-year-old Toyota Prius or something like that. But for most of us, there are plenty of ancillary factors to consider.

 

[Koolau]

If it comes down to dollars and cents, then you are certainly correct. I waited 18 months for my Rav4 Prime because I wouldn't pay more than MSRP. I've been to the gas station 6 times over the past year, and my tank was only half empty each time. With the tax rebate of $7500, the price premium wasn't too much for me and I love bopping around on electric 99% of the time - which is how it works given my driving habits.

That being said, PHEV are clearly a transitional vehicle. I expect I will be able to sell this car in a few years and recoup the price premium.

It is also a bit of a slippery slope to try to cost-justify which model of a new car one should buy. Because if you were really trying to maximize every dollar you should just buy a 10-year-old Toyota Prius or something like that. But for most of us, there are plenty of ancillary factors to consider.

Yeah, I was reading an article in Consumer Reports which claims the new (less than 10 year old) safety improvements are saving something like (forget the exact number) 10 or 12% MORE lives than the older cars. They point out that the "fleet" age is actually quite old and getting older. The take-away is that you can now "pay" for the extra safety by purchasing newer cars. That just could be more important than gas mileage or hybrid vs p-hybrid or EV. What would you pay for your or love-one's life? That calculus might change a lot of buying habits. It's got me thinking, any way.

Returning you now...

 

[RetMD21]

It is also a bit of a slippery slope to try to cost-justify which model of a new car one should buy. Because if you were really trying to maximize every dollar you should just buy a 10-year-old Toyota Prius or something like that. But for most of us, there are plenty of ancillary factors to consider.

yeah on a strictly financial basis it's hard to save money by buying a $40-50k new vehicle

 

[Masquernom]

Speaking of PHEV's. I'm looking forward to seeing what the Mazda CX-70 PHEV will be like.

 

[Koolau]

yeah on a strictly financial basis it's hard to save money by buying a $40-50k new vehicle

Heh, heh, buy TWO (His and Hers) and pay only 95% for the second one. See how much you saved!!

 

[pb4uski]

Not a plug-in hybrid, but I finally received the 2023 Ford Maverick XLT FWD Hybrid that I ordered in Sept 2022 last Thursday. Our first hybrid.

We just completed a ~1,500 mile drive to Florida and averaged almost 31 mpg, much of the trip on cruise control at 75mph with 1/2 ton of DW's "stuff" loaded in it.

The Android Auto works really well but I'm going to get a dongle so I don't have to plug my phone in each time I get in.

Pretty impressive vehicle for $26,645 MSRP.

 

[RobLJ]

We got our RAV PHEV almost 3 years ago, which qualified for a 7500 credit, which made it like 1500 more than a RAV hybrid and a good deal--no markup. I suspect the Hybrids are a better deal, as several have suggested.
Around town, we pay no gas, but then we use it to drive to the Central Valley CA to the grandkids, and also drove to Pennsylvania from Reno last year when DW's niece was married, so the advantage of the PHEV has only increased the gas mileage about 20%. If you are driving less than 40 miles, the advantage would be spectacular. Electricity here is 13c/kwh and we have solar panels, so the PHEV and the Bolt are dirt cheap, compared to gasoline.
We use the Bolt for trips less than 100 miles.
Our gas outlay is about 15% what it was, with the Silverado and Subaru Forester. The Silverado was a pig and the Forester used premium.

YMMV, but the RAV PHEV is a hell of a car.

 

[dixonge]

They recently announced they are changing strategy. They tout they will have things like solid state batteries by the end of the decade.

They've been promising that for *more than* a decade... Don't hold your breath:

https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/sol...ng-big-on-ev-breakthrough-but-not-delivering/

 

[Koolau]

We got our RAV PHEV almost 3 years ago, which qualified for a 7500 credit, which made it like 1500 more than a RAV hybrid and a good deal--no markup. I suspect the Hybrids are a better deal, as several have suggested.
Around town, we pay no gas, but then we use it to drive to the Central Valley CA to the grandkids, and also drove to Pennsylvania from Reno last year when DW's niece was married, so the advantage of the PHEV has only increased the gas mileage about 20%. If you are driving less than 40 miles, the advantage would be spectacular. Electricity here is 13c/kwh and we have solar panels, so the PHEV and the Bolt are dirt cheap, compared to gasoline.
We use the Bolt for trips less than 100 miles.
Our gas outlay is about 15% what it was, with the Silverado and Subaru Forester. The Silverado was a pig and the Forester used premium.

YMMV, but the RAV PHEV is a hell of a car.

As I have heard (and often repeat) Timing is everything!

 

[ncbill]

They've been promising that for *more than* a decade... Don't hold your breath:

https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/sol...ng-big-on-ev-breakthrough-but-not-delivering/

Chinese OEMs are on the cusp of putting solid state batteries in some EVs:

NIO finds early success with solid-state batteries, files to expand the tech to 11 more EVs

 

[dixonge]

Chinese OEMs are on the cusp of putting solid state batteries in some EVs:

NIO finds early success with solid-state batteries, files to expand the tech to 11 more EVs

An interesting article. But I was referring to Toyota, not the overall state of the industry. Still, NIO seems to be moving the ball forward. Will be interesting to see if they can produce these at scale and avoid major manufacturing issues.

 

[frank]

do the toyota hybrids qualify for a tax credit? Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but didn't know that was a thing.

 

[zinger1457]

From the list I saw no Toyota vehicles currently qualify for a tax credit, hybrids (non-plugins) were never on the list.