Public Health Service Researcher Joe Hillbeln on Fats and Oils in Diet

[haha]

Joe Hibbeln: More “Vegetable” Oil? MORE Heart Deaths | Me and My Diabetes

Editor’s Note: For 50 years, world health policies have relied on research done in the 1960s about just what kinds of fats and oils do the best job of lowering blood cholesterol. Lowering cholesterol was considered a sure sign that heart attack risk was going down as well. Now, data recovered from one of those studies reveals that over time, the people who ate the oils that lowered their blood cholesterol more actually died more often of all causes, and they also died more often of heart disease. It’s a story of mis-placed confidence in vegetable oils, too much Omega 6 oil, and not enough Omega 3. For more, let’s listen in to Joe Hibbeln, from the National Institutes of Health. Joe’s the senior investigator on this study. It was published in the British Medical Journal. It’s titled, “Use of dietary linoleic acid for secondary prevention of coronary heart disease and death.

30' interview, and also a transcript. I liked this guy because he insisted on keeping the interviewer honest, and not letting her spin his findings into a pro-saturated fat screed. He said that the research proved that omeaga-6 oils were harmful in the amount found in modern diets, but did not prove anything about saturated fat other than it was better than the omega-6 oils. Almost all these websites and authors have a point of view to sell, and often products that support that POV. Joe Hibbeln is a careful scientist, and IMO there is something to be learned from this interview.

Ha

 

[ERD50]

I read (most of) the transcript. What gets my goat is the medical community makes some connection based on something, and that turns into a 'recommendation', without any evidence regarding actual results.

I recall how common it was for tonsils to be removed when I was a kid. I read up on this, and it was all based on a 'belief' that an infection in one part of the body was bad overall. But no actual study to show this. So many thousands of unnecessary tonsil removals were performed, with occasional complications and even deaths. On a 'hunch'. Insane. Of course there are valid reasons for tonsillectomies, but they sure seemed to be over-used through much of the 1900's.

Oh, and I just came a cross this:

Tonsillectomy and Poliomyelitis

A study from 1954, referencing other reports that indicate one form of polio was 3 to 4 times as common among those with tonsillectomies. I see that this 'bulbar' form only made up ~ 2% of the paralytic cases (based on today's numbers I assume), but still.


Same with margarine vs butter, and very likely the pro-low-fat and anti-saturated fat.

I know the studies are difficult with all the variables, but maybe they should just be quiet until they find evidence of a real connection?

Hard to know what to think, but eating more fish seems to be a common thread to much of this.

-ERD50

 

[donheff]

That is an excellent interview Ha. I was particularly interested in the studies that show obesity can be induced/reduced in mice in both low fat and high fat diets simply by raising and lowering Omega 6 fats. Also the fact that we self generate long chain (useful) Omega 3s in our bodies if Omega 6s are low.

 

[grasshopper]

One change I made in my diet was switching to walnut oil, olive oil had always been my good to oil.

 

[omni550]

One change I made in my diet was switching to walnut oil, olive oil had always been my good to oil.

And, I'm curious, have you noticed any difference(s) as a result, grasshopper?

omni

 

[grasshopper]

And, I'm curious, have you noticed any difference(s) as a result, grasshopper?

omni

I think that I will never know. I was diagnosed with indolent prostate cancer in January. Since than I have been on a sugar free, low carb diet and have lost over 30lbs. I have been veg/vegan for 20 years, always had borderline 200-220 total cholesterol. I now take fish oil, tumeric, and eat more foods that reduce inflammation. I won't have a physical until December, but my PSA number is almost half of January's number.

 

[Jackanory]

So, my Smart Balance spread, may not be so smart? First ingredient is soybean oil which, according to wikipedia, is 51% LA. By comparison, butter is 2% LA

 

[bjorn2bwild]

I liked the part where lowering Omega-6's lowers the need for Omega-3's (and possibly the need for supplementation) allowing our own biochemistry to keep the balance.
Interesting where lab mice produced cannabinoids as a by product of high Omega-6 consumption and gained weight - hey they got the "munchies". Cannabiniods are also the most likely source of the runners high.

Here is another interesting perspective on dietary fat and cholesterol -
The Cholesterol Delusion - part 1 of 2

 

[haha]

I also read his paper. It is all very interesting, but to me the thing that really stood out is the unappreciated risk in looking to some factor other than the body's actual life and death to gauge whether some intervention is helpful. They assumed, or thought that they knew, that cholesterol was related causally to atherosclerosis which was related causally to death. So when linoleic acid was seen to be a fairly potent cholesterol lowering agent (ldl), it was assumed that the humans who thus had their cholesterol lowered by taking linoleic acid would live longer, and also have less heart and cardiovascular mortality. Wrong on all counts.

So not only did people give up good tasting fats like butter and olive oil, and substitute much less palatable fats like margarine and corn oil and soybean oil, they also lost life span in the bargain. People, including medical researchers, go off half cocked too often. The dame thing bothers me about popularizers of extreme high saturated fat diets. Maybe they have it right, but maybe there is more to it. So if they could slow down on the promotion and be sure they get the science right, things might go better.

And at least they wouldn't look like damn fools in retrospect.

Ha

 

[bjorn2bwild]

So if they could slow down on the promotion and be sure they get the science right, things might go better.
Ha

If scientists are composed of the same 2/3's ratio of premature marshmallow eaters as the gp, then I understand the problem. A well designed long term nutritional study must be as scintillating as watching paint dry. A researcher may wait their entire career for that golden nugget of reliable new data. Add in the cost barrier and junk science becomes the norm.
Then there is the human element. Any long term study will need to rely on self reporting. Think of hollywoods best scene where a dieter loses it - inhaling the Snickers 12 pack, 1/2 gallon of Hagen Daz, and a bakers dozen of Krispy Kremes finest. There might be a little guilt in reporting that data point.
There is no room in science for the petty politics. In the mean time we wait.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

I have been experimenting with various diets since 1974.
I did'nt know who Ancel Keyes was in 1990 but felt his influence when my total cholesterol hit 205 and my doc suggested that I trade dairy fat for vegetable oil. Sure enough over the following years my total cholesterol dropped to a low of 166.
Yesterday I went to see the same doc with a total cholesterol of 212. No comment on that. Instead the conversation centered on my HDL of 113 and triglyceride of 23. We both have read Taubes' good c/ bad c.