Question? for an electrician.

[Tailgate]

I want to replace a light switch with a smart switch so I can put the outside lights on a schedule.


The current switch has 3 wires..... ground, load and hot. The switch I want to put in has 4.. ground, load, hot and neutral.


House was built in 2008. I don't see any common wires in the box. There are 3 different rocker switches operating 3 different lights. The painters pretty much covered all the wire colors with the beige paint used on the wall making it hard to identify what's what. I know to where to attach the ground, load and hot to the switch, but I'm not sure what to do with the neutral.



Question: Do I need to attach the neutral to anything, or can I just tape it and not worry about it? Is this safe or a problem? I hate to call an electrician for what might be an easy DIY for me. TIA.

 

[njhowie]

I've been through this last year...initially started the exact same way as you, just wanted to put the porch lights on the smart switch to automatically turn them on/off nightly. Then I got hooked. In any case, our wiring is the same as yours - no common. So, you need to purchase smart switches which do not require the common. If you use the one you have without the neutral, it's not going to work (properly).

Our whole house is using the Cync switches from GE. I think we're up to about 30. Below are links on Amazon - note, that these models are specifically for no neutral wire required, and as a result, they charge a bit more. My detailed review is there on the last link - top review when sorted by Top reviews. It's important to note, that due to the way they get around not having the common, you need to have at least 15 watts being drawn by the bulb(s) on the switch. This is important to keep in mind if you are using LEDs which use low wattage. If wattage is too low, the lights on the switch may flicker and/or not work properly. The solution is to use a higher wattage bulb, either LED, fluorescent, or good old reliable incandescent.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082LJYSX2
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082LK16TH
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082LKCXV9
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082LK67NJ


There are very few vendors that produce models not requiring the neutral.

 

[Lewis Clark]

My detailed review is there on the last link - top review when sorted by Top reviews.

I read your review on Amazon. Wow. Very well written and great information!

 

[Jerry1]

I want to replace a light switch with a smart switch so I can put the outside lights on a schedule.

You might want to consider wifi bulbs. I have a number of them and they’re working great. Not only can you put them on a schedule, they give you any color of light that you could want (all in one bulb).

 

[njhowie]

I read your review on Amazon. Wow. Very well written and great information!

Thanks. I learned a lot in the process and it seemed that there wasn't much good information out there for troubleshooting...which appeared to have many folks leaving terrible reviews. I encountered many of their problems and figured it all out. Both GE and Google have also made their apps better since a year ago, and resolved some of the issues they were having. There was about a 3 month period through the summer where things went bonkers. Google released a new/revamped version of Google Home and everything magically worked again and better.

 

[OldShooter]

I've been told (haven't checked for myself) that the code now requires a neutral in every box just because of issues like this with new technology devices.

 

[marko]

Had the exact same issue. Porch lights. Brand new home. I'm pretty good with such things but the neutral wire had me stumped.

Called an electrician. $175 and he even programmed it for me. Done. BTD.

 

[brett]

I have had some electrical and some plumbing challenges.

First place I go us google/utube.

Second place...after taking pictures on my ipad, is Home Depot. I ask specifically if the clerk is an electrician or a plumber. I make a point of going in off hours.

Invariably on the first or second visit there is a retired tradesman who is working part time. They always seem willing to help. And...the pictures are worth a thousand works. I actually return to the same person with a picture of the final repair...just to make certain.

Have done this with plumbing, electrical, and ceramic tiles. 100 percent success rate over three home renos!

Just do not go on the weekend or in the evening when lots of DIYers are shopping.

 

[Sunset]

I put dusk to dawn LED light bulbs in our outdoor sockets and just leave the switch on. About $4.50 each.

On another house I had a timer, but had to keep adjusting it as the seasons changed and it got darker earlier then went to later, such a pain.

 

[JoeWras]

I've been told (haven't checked for myself) that the code now requires a neutral in every box just because of issues like this with new technology devices.

Yes, true. I think this will become a selling point of newer homes eventually, just like ground wires did after they were required in the early 60s.

A common wiring technique back in the day was to run hot to the box in the ceiling, and drop a line down to the switch using 2 wires. If using Romex, the white wire was really just a switched hot leg (usually red in conduit) and should have been marked as such, but usually wasn't. If this wiring is done today, they drop three wires, one being the true neutral.

This kind of wiring frequently gives DYIers a shock because the wire colors are used in unusual ways. That's why they always say "cut the breaker!"

Anyway, back to OP's problem. Get a device that doesn't need a neutral. You will see some people do a "bootleg neutral" by using the ground as neutral. DO NOT do that. It "works," but defeats the reason for a separate ground. BTW, there are also "bootleg grounds" installed on those old homes without ground wires. Those are even worse.

 

[jrgators]

I just go with Smartbulbs. No need to change anything else. I went with hubspace from Home Depot. You just download the app, scan the bulb and then program it to do whatever you want (dusk/dawn or whatever). Very simple

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

I got these in a 9W on Temu for $2.50 each and I've had them about 8 months now and both work great. They're plastic so don't break even when Temu ships in a non padded envelope with a bunch of other stuff.
They're dawn to dusk and stay off until they detect any motion. They're also so sensitive that if I walk anywhere close to the fixture from inside the house they light up. They can also be purchased on Amazon for about $9 last time I looked. The 9W is bright enough but I'd probably buy 12W next time just to see the difference. They're available in 9W 12W and 15W

https://www.temu.com/led-motion-sen...ng-lighting-ac100-130v-g-601099515399966.html

 

[CaptTom]

...The current switch has 3 wires..... ground, load and hot. The switch I want to put in has 4.. ground, load, hot and neutral...

...Question: Do I need to attach the neutral to anything, or can I just tape it and not worry about it? Is this safe or a problem? I hate to call an electrician for what might be an easy DIY for me. TIA.

Yes, you need to supply a neutral to most new "smart" switches. I'm no expert on building codes, but as I understand it there has been a requirement to have a neutral at each outlet for a long time now. States and municipalities sometimes take a while to update their codes, so perhaps that requirement hadn't reached your location when the house was built.

As you may have noticed from the above posts, once you start on home automation it's hard to stop. Think long and hard about who you want to share your home's every action with. Do you want a DIY solution under your local control, or are you willing to hand the keys over to one of the Big Data companies?

I've known people who are happy with each direction. Plug-and-play sure is easy; let someone else manage it. Personally, I went the DIY route with Home Assistant, an open-source project. There's also OpenHab. You can have it both ways with a local hub but cloud support with things like SmartThings or Hubitat.

Choose wisely, you'll be living with that decision for a while.

 

[ERD50]

I've been told (haven't checked for myself) that the code now requires a neutral in every box just because of issues like this with new technology devices.

I was curious, so I did check. emphasis mine

https://www.electricallicenserenewa...ation-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=301.0

404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.

Code Change Summary: Revisions were made to the requirement to provide a grounded neutral conductor at specific switch locations.

Section 404.2(C) requires a neutral conductor to be installed at specific lighting switch locations. Not all light switches require or even use a neutral but some have electronic circuitry that requires a current return path to complete the circuit even when the device is in the off position. ....

For years, manufacturers have been producing occupancy sensor and motion control type switches that use the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit as the normal neutral current return path. A small amount of neutral current imposed on the equipment grounding conductor is considered to be harmless. For example, as part of the listing and certification process, a listed appliance can have no more than ½ mA of current leakage flowing along the equipment ground return path. A typical Class A type GFCI device is designed to trip when between 4mA and 6mA of current leakage on the equipment ground path has been detected.

The problem arises when 10 or so occupancy sensor type switches are installed on the same circuit which leads to 5mA or more of current traversing the equipment grounding return path. For this reason, the 2011 NEC® began requiring a grounded neutral conductor to be present at each switch box.

More recent than I thought, so OP's 2008 home did not require a Neutral in each box.

I got lucky in my old home when I wired an electronic timer (that needed a neutral) for our outside lights. No Neutral in the box, but there was one just one box away (and only ~ 4 feet), and it was easy to extend that to the switch box.

I've used others that didn't need a neutral, but as mentioned earlier, these need a little 'leakage' through the "OFF" lights to keep the timer powered. I just used one low-watt standard filament bulb in one of the sockets, the filament provides a path for that tiny current to keep the timer running, most CFLs/LEDs won't.

-ERD50

 

[rk911]

Simplify your life. Use a fixture with a built in dusk-to-dawn sensor. No programming necessary. Interior switch stays on 24/7 so the sensor controls the bulb. OR....a bulb with built in dusk-to-dawn sensor. All of our outdoor light fixtures have dusk-to-dawn built in sensors.

 

[Sunset]

I got these in a 9W on Temu for $2.50 each and I've had them about 8 months now and both work great. They're plastic so don't break even when Temu ships in a non padded envelope with a bunch of other stuff.
They're dawn to dusk and stay off until they detect any motion. They're also so sensitive that if I walk anywhere close to the fixture from inside the house they light up. They can also be purchased on Amazon for about $9 last time I looked. The 9W is bright enough but I'd probably buy 12W next time just to see the difference. They're available in 9W 12W and 15W

https://www.temu.com/led-motion-sen...ng-lighting-ac100-130v-g-601099515399966.html

These use microwaves to detect, instead of passive infared (PIR). I went with the PIR for a backyard bulb, but it's OK at detecting after I lowered it in the fixture to hang out the bottom more.

So a microwave one would work better for me at detecting.
But I'm concerned about the constant emitting they do, and being exposed over a long time to the microwaves.
I just wonder if they are truly safe