Rhode Island Public Pension System Reform

[ripper1]

Are we just gonna fill this thread with Beatles songs? The 1% will have to flee and live in their yellow submarines!

We can work it out as we go down the long and winding road.

 

[youbet]

Even with the COLA people think public employees have these lavish pensions. It is just untrue. It is the top level management and administrators that are gaming the system.

Like you, I'm quite familar with public pensions in Illinois ripper1. But I have to disagree with your statement that only top level management and administrators are gaming the system. For example, in the mid-90's, the Illinois Education Association (state wide teachers' union) negotiated an early-out package that included hefty spiking for everyone that chose to retire early. I can research other examples if you wish. The wildly bold actions of some top level folks in grabbing literal fortunes from the system get lots of media attention these days. But, the way the rules have been laid out in the past, worker bees have been able to take advantage of "grey area" provisions of the pension rules as well.

My condolences if you didn't get a tasty slice of the pie, not everyone did. But there have been many opportunities for the rank and file to chomp down a hefty bite on their way out.

 

[sailor]

I guess my problem is where does it stop!!

Today they cut pensions that were promised.

Next? How about this? "joe, you have earned six weeks sick pay which should have covered your sickenss, but times are tough. So we are taking back two weeks. Hope you can return to work in four weeks instead of six. Sorry."

Then: "Jill, you have accumulated four weeks of vacation, but times are tough. We are taking back a week. Enjoy!"

Then: "Bill, we paid you $70,000 last year, but times are tough and we found out that we should not have paid you that much. We want $10,000 back. Or you can find a new job."

Read "Retirement Heist" if you think these things are so crazy they could never happen. Then read "All the Devils are Here."

Two out of three already happened in my mini-megacorp.
Except for California employees (which I think were covered by some local laws), last year we lost some earned vacation time and salaries were reduced for the pay period we already worked.
And yes, if you did not agree to it, you would need to find a new job.
I don't know of a single employee not signing the papers.
Several did left the company, but none directly connected to these two reductions.

 

[youbet]

It will be interesting to see if the COLA freezes and other measures taken to improve the health of the pension plans are reversed when the economy recovers.

Hmmmmm.... I think it will be more interesting to see if the economy recovers. Personally, I'm of the opinion that we're not likely to see middle class standards of living ever return to what they've recently been. The only exception I can think of is if we have some extremely impactful technological breakthroughs in energy and in food production. And, maybe some slowing of population growth.

 

[ripper1]

Like you, I'm quite familar with public pensions in Illinois ripper1. But I have to disagree with your statement that only top level management and administrators are gaming the system. For example, in the mid-90's, the Illinois Education Association (state wide teachers' union) negotiated an early-out package that included hefty spiking for everyone that chose to retire early. I can research other examples if you wish. The wildly bold actions of some top level folks in grabbing literal fortunes from the system get lots of media attention these days. But, the way the rules have been laid out in the past, worker bees have been able to take advantage of "grey area" provisions of the pension rules as well.

My condolences if you didn't get a tasty slice of the pie, not everyone did. But there have been many opportunities for the rank and file to chomp down a hefty bite on their way out.[/QUOTE Please clue me in on the grey areas for the rank file.

 

[heirloom]

how fair is the current system where I work like mad to provide the building inspector or bus driver with a retirement that I could never hope for?

AMEN!!

I would have been able to retire after 30 yrs. from my company, but wouldn't have insurance, let alone COLA. We didn't even get it when I worked.

My husband is a mechanical eng. and our city bus drivers make more than he does, plus they have better pensions with COLA, better health care. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Chuckanut]

AMEN!!

I would have been able to retire after 30 yrs. from my company, but wouldn't have insurance, let alone COLA. We didn't even get it when I worked.

What didn't you get when you were working? COLA? Insurance? Both?

 

[heirloom]

What didn't you get when you were working? COLA? Insurance? Both?

COLA

We got it when I first started, but discontinued it about 15 yrs. ago.

 

[heirloom]

Even with the COLA people think public employees have these lavish pensions. It is just untrue. It is the top level management and administrators that are gaming the system.

Well,

Unfortunately, I don't think you know how good some of you have it.
My boss's wife was a teacher and they used her health insurance because it was much better.
Same with a co-worker, his wife is a secretary at a public school and they are using her insurance.

We can't continue to have our taxes raised so we can pay everyones COLA while ours keep dwindling . There has to be a stop somewhere.

Our place had a pay freeze 2 yrs ago like someone else mentioned. But our taxes didn't freeze.

 

[ripper1]

It wasn't so long ago the job to get was a private sector job with pensions, ss, and the big perks. Nobody complained about public servants and their dead end jobs. The middle class is too busy bickering while the 1% gets a pass.

 

[M Paquette]

It wasn't so long ago the job to get was a private sector job with pensions, ss, and the big perks. Nobody complained about public servants and their dead end jobs. The middle class is too busy bickering while the 1% gets a pass.

Hmmm... Retiring from my private sector job was exactly like quitting. Same benefits for either option.

None of the private sector jobs I held before retiring offered any sort of pension plan or medical.

 

[Spanky]

Even with the COLA people think public employees have these lavish pensions.

The public retirees from San Francisco are doing quite well:
Guess what’s the average San Francisco city pension? | City Insider | an SFGate.com blog

"The average retiree from San Francisco city government earns an annual pension of $46,272, according to the San Francisco Employees’ Retirement System. The average retiree who worked at least 30 years in city government earns an annual pension of $76,981.

The average pension for a retiree from the fire department is $108,552. From the police department? $95,016. And everybody else? $41,136."

"retirees are doing pretty well compared to working San Franciscans. Census data shows the median family income in the city is $86,546. Per capita income is $44,373."

 

[ripper1]

The public retirees from San Francisco are doing quite well:
Guess what’s the average San Francisco city pension? | City Insider | an SFGate.com blog

"The average retiree from San Francisco city government earns an annual pension of $46,272, according to the San Francisco Employees’ Retirement System. The average retiree who worked at least 30 years in city government earns an annual pension of $76,981.

The average pension for a retiree from the fire department is $108,552. From the police department? $95,016. And everybody else? $41,136."

"retirees are doing pretty well compared to working San Franciscans. Census data shows the median family income in the city is $86,546. Per capita income is $44,373."

I guess you didn't read the rest of the article. The averages are skewed by highly paid workers and the average meat and potatoes city worker there earn not much more than 20,000.

 

[Chuckanut]

It wasn't so long ago the job to get was a private sector job with pensions, ss, and the big perks. Nobody complained about public servants and their dead end jobs. The middle class is too busy bickering while the 1% gets a pass.

You have that right. As many have said it is a race to the bottom while the big-boys and big-girls get more.

We need to remember that benefits for public employees vary greatly. I know that my medical insurance for the family is VERY expensive. We used my wife's ensurance because it was much cheaper than than adding her and the kids to my plan as a teacher. It varies. Just as compensation in the private world varies.

Some complain of no COLA for years. On the other, hand my neighbor gets nice raises every year and stands to make a small fortune when her employer goes public.

We all make choices in our lives including where we live, how much education we get, and for whom we work.

 

[haha]

I guess you didn't read the rest of the article. The averages are skewed by highly paid workers and the average meat and potatoes city worker there earn not much more than 20,000.

I know a guy in Seattle who started working for the local government at age 42. Exactly 20 years later he retired on a $44k annual retirement. He also has SS from this job.

I would like to know what government workers get $20k.

Also, to the 99%ers, these 1% guys are a problem, but we are not being directly taxed for their lush benefits.

Somehow I think that if my taxes get raised, it is more likely to go to some public workers pension than to anything that might help me like fixing the streets and sidewalks.

Ha

 

[youbet]

We all make choices in our lives including where we live, how much education we get, and for whom we work.

I think that's all that folks are saying....... They (tax payers) want to make a choice. Some feel they can't afford to spend any more for the services provided to them by the public sector. So they'd like to try paying less and see if it's possible that they can still hire and retain competent employees to do these things for them.

If a sanitation worker in Chicago doesn't agree that having pay frozen or that having a less generous pension plan going forward is his best deal, he's completely free to move on. Perhaps he'll snatch up one of those juicy private sector jobs and join the ranks of the 1%! It's strictly up to him.

It's about choice. Tax payers want a choice about how much they're spending for what they're getting. If they're wrong and at lower wages or at less generous pensions they're dissatisified with the quality they're getting, then they'll have to eat crow and pay more.

It seems that tax payers are completely aware of the fact that some public sector jobs shouldn't be touched. Many would say that the military, public safety and some others need high pay and benefits to attract the best. Other areas seem overpaid vs the availability of applicants qualified to do the work. Tax payers simply want to be able to have more input about what's happening and to have input into the choices being made.

It's about choice. People are simply speaking up about what they'd like to do.

 

[ziggy29]

I would like to know what government workers get $20k.

Teacher aides in our local school district start at about $14K. The benefits are almost more than the pay.

 

[eridanus]

It seems that tax payers are completely aware of the fact that some public sector jobs shouldn't be touched.

Why not? Does an able-bodied person need a $100,000 pension in her 40s? Maybe we should "experiment" and see whether giving them a pension at, say, 55, would still attract the finest that our tax dollars can attract?

Oh, oops, is this one of those "taboo" spending cuts?* Never mind. We take you back to your current zeitgeist. Cut spending!!!1!!!**


*Except in Ohio, where the anti-Union bill included teachers, police, and firefighters.

**But not for the things that I don't want to cut because, like, those are sacred.

 

[youbet]

Why not? Does an able-bodied person need a $100,000 pension in her 40s? Maybe we should "experiment" and see whether giving them a pension at, say, 55, would still attract the finest that our tax dollars can attract?

Sounds good! Alignment of public sector jobs with market prices would be a good thing.

 

[Bimmerbill]

I can't wait for them to align public sector IT job salaries with private sector! I will get a nice raise for sure! Throw in Boston area market pricing and that is icing on the cake!

The local newspaper just listed the highest public pensioners. 9 of 10 were police or fire with one school administrator as the 10th.

I would guess that there was a lot of pension spiking going on. It is too bad the paper didn't list their final salary as well as their pension.

 

[clifp]

I guess you didn't read the rest of the article. The averages are skewed by highly paid workers and the average meat and potatoes city worker there earn not much more than 20,000.

According to the union rep. Looking at SFERS plan I am sure that folks who have only worked for 10-15 years are probably only get "about 20K" but somebody who has worked 30+ years is certainly getting close to 40K.

Take the SF sanitation engineer (aka garbage collector) the average SF salary for a sanitation engineeris 45K so a senior guy is probably getting close to $55-60k. Somebody who started working in his early 20s is going to max out his retirement benefit by his late 50s. (It is capped at in SF @75% of the final salary).Now collecting garbage use to be physically demanding job. It isn't so much with the automated trucks they use now. It certainly isn't a great job, but it isn't exactly a high skilled job either. So long time garbage collector in SF is going to retire in his late 50s with a pension in the 40-45K range.

I personally am more inclined to believe that an exact figure of $41,136 (excluding public safety employees) is more accurate than union rep say around $20K.

 

[Mulligan]

Teacher aides in our local school district start at about $14K. The benefits are almost more than the pay.

Teachers aides where I live would have thought they hit the jackpot it they got paid that! They are around 11k-12k, here. My brother in law has worked for the county government as a road repair worker for over 15 years and he is right around 20k. Where you live and what your job is obviously effects salary.

 

[ripper1]

I know a guy in Seattle who started working for the local government at age 42. Exactly 20 years later he retired on a $44k annual retirement. He also has SS from this job.

I would like to know what government workers get $20k.

Also, to the 99%ers, these 1% guys are a problem, but we are not being directly taxed for their lush benefits.

Somehow I think that if my taxes get raised, it is more likely to go to some public workers pension than to anything that might help me like fixing the streets and sidewalks.

Ha

Well maybe we or you are not being directly taxed by the 1% for the so called lush benefits of public servants but aren't they the ones who are taking away the pensions and benefits of the private sector worker.

 

[Chuckanut]

Certainly, some public sector jobs have pension benefits that are much to generous. That should be corrected and we can see that many states and localities already are doing that. But, reducing public sector pensions will not mean that private sector workers suddenly get better pensions, better 401K deals, etc. Reading Retirement Heist shows that much of the money taken from employee pensions by private companies went (among other places) to enhance the pensions and benefits of the executives. Beware of what you ask for. We need fair, sustainable retirement plans for every person willing to work, regardless of their employer.

 

[FUEGO]

Teachers aides where I live would have thought they hit the jackpot it they got paid that! They are around 11k-12k, here. My brother in law has worked for the county government as a road repair worker for over 15 years and he is right around 20k. Where you live and what your job is obviously effects salary.

Seriously? $11k a year for a 9 month position works out to about a quarter an hour more than minimum wage. If that is a 10 month position they are making less than the federal min wage. That stat is a little shocking.

Our TA's locally get over $11/hr with zero experience, increasing to $13/$15 for mid career and 30 yr veterans, respectively. After checking, our assistant lunch ladies are the least paid school staff at over $10/hr (and they get benefits).

This is in a non-unionized area that isn't particularly high cost of living.