So, how exactly does this work?

[sgeeeee]

Great. Then stop bitching and moaning and start an "Obesity II" thread. Then we can see all those people who were having a good time ranking on fat people. Then we can all laugh at the moderators and get on with life.

I never cared about the obesity thread, Brewer.

I cared about the censure, and that's what this thread is about. You should probably stop reading this thread, Brewer. It is making you angry and the arguments aren't changing. Either that, or you should write a PM to the moderators and get them to lock this thread and protect you from arguments you don't want to read anymore.

 

[brewer12345]

I never cared about the obesity thread, Brewer.

I cared about the censure, and that's what this thread is about. You should probably stop reading this thread, Brewer. It is making you angry and the arguments aren't changing. Either that, or you should write a PM to the moderators and get them to lock this thread and protect you from arguments you don't want to read anymore.

Better yet, why don't you take it up with the mods via PM? If that doesn't suit you, I have a host of other, more detailed suggestions for you...

 

[sgeeeee]

Better yet, why don't you take it up with the mods via PM? If that doesn't suit you, I have a host of other, more detailed suggestions for you...

So. I am concerned that a few vocal posters are able to censure threads by writing PMs to the moderators and your suggestion is that I write the PMs to the moderators.

What I hope I am supplying here is amunition for the moderators to use the next time they are tempted to lock a topic simply because a few posters were bored with it. Now they can point those posters to this thread and ask if they would like to go through this again or would they rather simply stop reading the thread. Wouldn't that be something?

Like I said, Brewer, I suggest you stop reading this thread. You are becoming angry with me and the two of us, in fact, are very much in agreement on most issues. Why fight me? Why support arbitrary censure? Why not just ignore the things that are making you angry?

I have a tremendous advantage in this discussion in that my argument makes far more sense than the argument that "I was bored so I wanted to make everyone stop." I realize my posts are making many angry and uncomfortable, but I really don't want to see this board become comfortable with that attitude.

 

[brewer12345]

I think your argument is based on the faulty assumption that we have a democracy here. As I stated a couple of pages ago, this is a benevolent despotism, like it or not.

I am not PO'd; I just cannot fathom why you are bothering to bash your head against the wall over and over and over...

 

[sgeeeee]

. . .
I am not PO'd; I just cannot fathom why you are bothering to bash your head against the wall over and over and over...

So you think I should have the willpower to stop . . . all by myself?

Can't I expect the moderators to lock me out in order to save me? They were willing to save you and other posters from bashing your heads against the wall of the obesity thread over and over and over ...

And the difference here is . . . ?

 

[kcowan]

I feel like I just stumbled into the alley out behind the bar and found two likable guys going at it! OK guys let's go back inside and have a drink!

 

[brewer12345]

So you think I should have the willpower to stop . . . all by myself?

Can't I expect the moderators to lock me out in order to save me? They were willing to save you and other posters from bashing your heads against the wall of the obesity thread over and over and over ...

And the difference here is . . . ?

So I see you hate fat people, too. I hate the way they use up all the Olestra. How about you?

BTW, you will note that I lost interest in the Grandpappy of Obesity threads long before it turned into the hairpulling bunch of third graders it became. I wasn't one of the ones campaigning to lock it since I didn;t really give a rat's ass.

 

[cube_rat]

I wasn't one of the ones campaigning to lock it since I didn;t really give a cube_rat's ass.

 

[Martha]

As much as Martha was shocked and surprised by the attitudes being expressed on the obesity thread, I am shocked and surprised by the attitudes about this form of censure.

Come on, as Brewer says, if people feel strongly enough that there was more to be said, they can start their own darn thread. But so far no one has. {EDIT, I guess I was wrong} But be forwarned, I'll bet plenty of kayaks and pancakes will appear.

If you want to take the temperature of the waters, start a poll.

 

[sgeeeee]

Come on, as Brewer says, if people feel strongly enough that there was more to be said, they can start their own darn thread. But so far no one has. {EDIT, I guess I was wrong}

As I said, I never cared about the obesity thread. I cared about the censure.

But be forwarned, I'll bet plenty of kayaks and pancakes will appear.

Nothing wrong with that. At least it is out in the open and not annonymous like PMs to modulators.

If you want to take the temperature of the waters, start a poll.

Like I said, I hope we don't start deciding what topics can and cannot be discussed based on majority opinion. That is, in fact, my central point. Did you really not get that?

 

[brewer12345]

...

 

[Martha]

Like I said, I hope we don't start deciding what topics can and cannot be discussed based on majority opinion. That is, in fact, my central point. Did you really not get that?

The poll is to see how many agree with you on how this board should or should not be moderated. Not on what topics can or can't be discussed. But in any event, this is Dory's board and here is a copy of Dory's message on how we should behave:

Most of us are here because we enjoy interacting with and reading the interactions of the friends we have made on this forum, and making new friends on the forum, even though few have met or ever will meet face to face.

It's an unusual community brought together by our interest in early retirement, a topic often misunderstood or awkward to discuss with others, even family. ("Hey Dad, I know you're still working at 70, but now that I'm 40, I'm gona retire" can create some interesting results.) Although brought together by that common interest, we talk about a good many things, as does any such group.

Friends don't always agree on everything or even on most things. They can agree to disagree. When that happens, they might keep their discussions logical and free of name calling and so forth, or more often they just spend their time on other topics. They don't take every opportunity to express their disagreement, incite argument, insult each other, and fan flames. When they are incapable of avoiding this sort of thing, they become much more disruptive than welcome.

Most of us, while we welcome perspectives on all sides of any issue, would not invite a frequently and apparently intentionally disruptive or rude person to a gathering of friends at our homes, nor to any other gathering of friends that they are hosting.

We don't have rules about what is appropriate discussion material. We just ask everyone to follow the "reasonable person" principle. (Reasonable people don't need a definition.)

Thanks to everyone for keeping the tone appropriate for a group of friends. At least the vast majority of the time. Please keep it up!


This is our guide to Moderation. This discussion reminds me of your criticism of me when I suggested on one of our religion threads that name calling was not appropriate. You said:

Okay. I am insulted, but I choose to engage.

Inflamatory words are not insulting to me. They are words that convey the thoughts and feelings of someone who is trying to communicate. They are communicating in a way that is actually very effective. I understand their position quite well. They are not holding any cards under the table. I may not like their opinion. I may become angry. But I give them credit for being honest.

I often find "tactful" conversation to be insulting. People in authoritative positions often think "tact" is more appropriate. They do not tell me what they are really feeling. Instead, they try to mask their agenda and avoid conflict. This is dishonest. Conflict exists and masking it in "tactful" words and phrases feels like an attempt to lie to me. It is condescending and insulting that these people feel that their approach to conversation is superior to mine. It, in effect, is a statement that they think that they are superior to me.

So if I threaten to leave the boards if one more moderator trys to push their "tact" on me, will you ask posters to stop being so tactful?

SG, the moderators disagree with your attitude.

I trust you will hang around anyway. Hope you do. Other than this one issue I generally agree with your opinions.

 

[Martha]

BREWER! Behave yourself!

 

[brewer12345]

Sorry, Martha. I get bored by these endless squabbles about nothing. Its like watching a Seinfeld episode without any of the jokes and with all of the characters wearing bags over their heads.

 

[Martha]

Sorry, Martha. I get bored by these endless squabbles about nothing. Its like watching a Seinfeld episode without any of the jokes and with all of the characters wearing bags over their heads.

Good analogy. Apology accepted.

 

[haha]

I almost missed this thread- I thought it was about SWRs or something equally imaginary.

But I enjoy these squabbles. Lately I have marking blocks "Mark as read". I wish we could talk more about sex, but next to that I like fights the best.

Only one poster really annoyed me- he was a psycho that spent his time insulting members' wives. He was sent packing, and he should have been.

So let’s all have a Big Dog Party, and not worry about pleasing everyone.

Ha

 

[haha]

As much as we love getting customer feedback, we don't seek to wade through cesspools of it. Walk a mile in our shoes... or go start a board filled with the people you feel happy with.

This is an immoderate moderation.

Ha

 

[Nords]

Quote from: sgeeeee on October 10, 2006, 09:35:59 PM
Nords: You got it.
Sorry. I won't accept that one. My fealing is
Dory's board: Love it? Improve it.
I'll keep trying to do that until you force me off or I find I don't love it anymore. Don't expect me to stop complaining about over moderation when things like this happen.

SG, you haven't given anyone any reason to force anybody off the board.

I'm a bit surprised that someone of your background & accomplishments has chosen to behave as you do on this board. As you no doubt have learned during your career, you could do a lot more to shape this board by working to change it from within than you'll achieve by criticizing those who are doing the work which you choose not to. If you don't want to do the work or otherwise help the board, fine, but it means that you also don't get to criticize the management. Suggest improvements, sure, offer other help, fine-- but throwing hand grenades from the peanut gallery is not appreciated.

You're a smart guy with perceptive insights who makes valuable contributions. Criticizing the moderation is also something you can feel free to do, but I would suspect that you'll get farther with more concrete descriptors than "How weak and pathetic are you?" (I bet that goes over good during a publicity interview!) You've been here long enough to know how things work. If you can live with it then you're welcome to keep making your positive contributions. If you find it intolerable then you can go somewhere else. The moderators will do what they feel is necessary, aided by board feedback and Dory's tolerance.

Some people feel that a board with a lot of uninhibited yelling & screaming flaming discourse is a healthy way to vent. I used to work in a submarine like that, where either the CO or the Engineer felt entitled to explode in rage with no warning. One day the Eng did it at another person while my back was turned and my flinching at the noise launched hot coffee across most of the room. We decided that operatic outbursts were probably a bad idea for the rest of the group, no matter how good they made the leaders feel. So, no, you don't get to say anything you want here and if we ask you to turn it off or take it somewhere else then we'll expect you to do that.

If you're getting the impression that I care more for the board's environment than I do for some of the posters, you're right. But this does not have to be a zero-sum game. I suspect we'll get more out of contributing than conflicting.

But if this is making you as grumpy as TH, then I understand.

This is an immoderate moderation.
Ha

Point taken, and I appreciate the smiley sentiment.

I'm not comparing feedback to a cesspool as much as I was trying to give the image of us standing around discussing what to do while the waters were rising higher. In this case we'd heard more than enough and we'd made plenty of requests to tone it down or take it somewhere else.

OK, guys, I'm done with this topic on a public stage. Additional feedback can be sent to me by PM or by e-mail.

 

[cube_rat]

The End!

 

[sgeeeee]

SG, you haven't given anyone any reason to force anybody off the board.

I'll keep trying.

I'm a bit surprised that someone of your background & accomplishments has chosen to behave as you do on this board.

Probably no more surprised than I am by the behavior of you, Martha and Brewer. The defense of the moderator's decision to lock a thread simply because they were bored is so reactionary I am shocked. Why not simply admit that this was probably a mistake? that there really was no good reason to do that? and pledge to be more reasonable in the future?

As you no doubt have learned during your career, you could do a lot more to shape this board by working to change it from within than you'll achieve by criticizing those who are doing the work which you choose not to.

Actually, that's not true at all. It really depends on a lot of factors. Dismantling a brick room can be done by chinking away from inside with a hammer and chisel, but sometimes it is more effective to crash a headache ball on the structure from the outside. I'm not sure what choices you believe I've made about work on this board.

If you don't want to do the work or otherwise help the board, fine, but it means that you also don't get to criticize the management. Suggest improvements, sure, offer other help, fine-- but throwing hand grenades from the peanut gallery is not appreciated.

I am helping the board, and in this case in the only way I can see to have the desired impact. My comments have been on point and constructive. I suspect that the reason you find exception to them is because they put some of your actions in question. If I could make the point without doing that, I would.

You're a smart guy with perceptive insights who makes valuable contributions. Criticizing the moderation is also something you can feel free to do, but I would suspect that you'll get farther with more concrete descriptors than "How weak and pathetic are you?" (I bet that goes over good during a publicity interview!)

I'm always amazed when people condescendingly attack another person for being condescending. I was, of course, being sarcastic with those remarks. I thought that was obvious by some of the other comments in those posts.

You've been here long enough to know how things work. If you can live with it then you're welcome to keep making your positive contributions. If you find it intolerable then you can go somewhere else. The moderators will do what they feel is necessary, aided by board feedback and Dory's tolerance.

And you've been here long enough to know that I will comment every time I sense heavy handed moderation that discourages diversity rather than encourages it. If you can live with that, then you're welcome to continue to attack my stance. If you find it intolerable then you can go somewhere else. I will do what I feel necessary.

. . .So, no, you don't get to say anything you want here and if we ask you to turn it off or take it somewhere else then we'll expect you to do that.

Not going to happen, Nords. You can ban me, but you can't shut me up by trying to pull this kind of superior position BS. In fact, this kind of comment only convinces me that I need to redouble my efforts to thwart rampent moderation. I am questioning the threshold of censure on the board. Don't threaten to censure me and expect me to back off.

If you're getting the impression that I care more for the board's environment than I do for some of the posters, you're right. But this does not have to be a zero-sum game. I suspect we'll get more out of contributing than conflicting.

That's not the impression you are leaving me with at all. The impression I am left with is not very complimentary to you, but it does not involve the way you balance my inputs vs the board's environment. The implication that my questioning the moderator's action places the board environment in jeopardy is really pretty insulting.

OK, guys, I'm done with this topic on a public stage. Additional feedback can be sent to me by PM or by e-mail.

Or I can post more here . . .

 

[cube_rat]

Ah hem, The End!

 

[donheff]

Like cube-rat said...

Thiiiiss isss theee ehhheend

 

[sgeeeee]

Like cube-rat said...

Thiiiiss isss theee ehhheend

Nahhhh....... Only the moderators can protect us from ourselves. Besides, I just pledged to Nords to redouble my efforts. I would guess we are in for several more days of this.

 

[unclemick]

Hmmmmm

10/06/2006 Commander's Palace in the Garden District reopened last Friday.

Screw skinny.

heh heh heh heh heh - alas I was in Missouri.

 

[Dawg52]

So let’s all have a Big Dog Party.

Ha

Hey, I'm all for that.