Stealth Wealth

[prudent_one]

^ I relate to that. You have to let people help even if you don't actually need it. There's no way to avoid it, otherwise they either think you consider their help inadequate, unwanted, and/or unhelpful.

I learned that lesson the hard way years ago. Thought I was being all noble by telling my sister she didn't need to bring any meals when I had surgery and was not on top of my game for a week. And I really didn't need any meals, I had plenty of frozen dinners that I was fine with. She has a very busy life so I was very insistent there was no need to bring any meals. None. Because I didn't want to inconvenience her for no good reason.

A couple years later, I'm going to her house for dinner with her family and she calls me the day before and asks if I'm going to be OK with the menu she planned. I said why would I object? She said since I told her not to bring any meals when I was laid up she assumed I hated her cooking.

But the kicker was after I convinced her it was only because I didn't need her to go to the trouble, she said "the meals weren't even important, but you know I'm a nurse and I wanted to make sure you were doing OK at home."

So I learned, there are times when people want to do something nice for you, just let them even if you don't need the help. You feel good when you do something for someone else, let them have that same feeling.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

+1 to the above. I firmly believe that sometimes you are called to give, and sometimes you are called to receive.

I occasionally even follow this advice!

 

[CardsFan]

+1 to the above. I firmly believe that sometimes you are called to give, and sometimes you are called to receive.

I occasionally even follow this advice!

Another +1.

Reminds me of my DMIL. Whenever we go out to eat she insists upon paying. I used to resist, as we can well afford to treat her, but I soon realized it pleased her more than us to pick up the bill, so we let her.

It also helps to know that she can well afford it, so I don't feel too guilty.

 

[Gumby]

It was a long struggle for me to learn this lesson. When I was a boy, I hated it when people gave me a present or did something for me, because I didn't really trust people and just knew there had to be a catch somewhere. After a long time of being steadfastly independent, I finally learned that I should go ahead and let them do it so they could feel good.

 

[iloveyoga]

I find the meal sharing stories very heart warming.

I have been thinking about this post, which is something I like about this board, it makes me think.

We are not rich by any means, but we don't have to worry about money which is important to me. I don't really make a big deal about it one way or the other. People who I know have a similar situation, it may come up. Most of the time not. But I do not hide that I don't spend time worrying about small money things. In retirement I want to simplify and reduce causes for stress.

Our overall lifestyle is modest and does not attract attention, which suits me fine. In general we can do what we want, which also makes me very happy.

So thanks for all the thought provoking posts on this topic.

 

[Koolau]

Love it! This type of message is certainly a challenge in the age of "reality shows" that glamorizes showing off in the media.

I might have a slight difference with the term "looking poor". I do agree with what he is saying I see it more as "looking average". Maybe because my parents were sticklers for us going out dressed well - as minorities that was one way then to increase your odds of being seen as "equal". No expensive clothes, but clean and neat. In addition, my mother could sew, and my father had a knack for finding good clothes at discount prices, two things they taught all of us.

An interesting situation related to "Stealth Wealth". With DW in a cast for her fractured ankle for the next several weeks, we are getting a lot of friends wanting to provide us with meals. On the one hand, I can cook, or take DW's direction for the things she wants, or buy prepared meals/takeout without any financial impact. On the other hand, these are friends who have a heart of service regardless of what we have. Most of them have less than we do. So our compromise is to accept just a couple of meals a week. While I can still feel a little guilty even taking that, I remind myself that many of these folks we helped in the past (even when we did not realize we were doing so) who do not care what we have, but just want to help.

I know where you're coming from on being helped. We always were the ones who helped (financially or with food, etc.) Now folks want to help us as we're having some health issues. We feel we should reject the offers because we can always send out for food or whatever. BUT a sage friend of mine said that people really WANT to help and saying "no" deprives them of that opportunity to help. It's still hard - I hope it's not pride on my part. YMMV

 

[marko]

I know where you're coming from on being helped. We always were the ones who helped (financially or with food, etc.) Now folks want to help us as we're having some health issues. We feel we should reject the offers because we can always send out for food or whatever. BUT a sage friend of mine said that people really WANT to help and saying "no" deprives them of that opportunity to help. It's still hard - I hope it's not pride on my part. YMMV

Had some elderly neighbors who both became quite ill. We were talking to their nurse one day and he said "They're people who know how to give, but don't know how to take".

That stuck with me. We tend to be "givers" but I hope some day, when the time comes, we learn how to take...for our own good.

 

[MarieIG]

I know where you're coming from on being helped. We always were the ones who helped (financially or with food, etc.) Now folks want to help us as we're having some health issues. We feel we should reject the offers because we can always send out for food or whatever. BUT a sage friend of mine said that people really WANT to help and saying "no" deprives them of that opportunity to help. It's still hard - I hope it's not pride on my part. YMMV

Take - a bit. Remember how you felt when you gave?

 

[Route246]

I know of an old lady who exactly drives an immaculate Benz wagon. It was premium when her late husband bought it and it is maintained and serviced to remain as new. She probably spends 5-10K/year on maintenance alone but it is always detailed and looks in showroom condition. She comes from old money and lives in a very nice home without much pretentiousness other than her name and address. When they were younger they enjoyed the finer things in life but their kids all grew up grounded and were successful without parents' help other than paying for college. Old money often behaves this way.

To be clear, what I was saying was that very wealthy people don't always flaunt their wealth because they can get what they want anyhow without it, because in the right circles, their position is recognized by those that matter to them. They "flaunt"it in a very different way than most people would recognize. The signs are there if you know what to look for - and that can be intentional. For example, I know that when I see a blue-haired old lady pull up in a 30-year old MB wagon in perfect condition, that what I'm looking at is serious old money. Flashy? no. Indicative? yes. Does she care what I think? Absolutely not (unless I'm in charge of parking her car). Does she want the right people in the know to recognize her position? Absolutely yes.

By the way, I should add, that what attracts me to the FIRE community is a healthy relationship with money, largely devoid of all this social anxiety.

 

[troutnut1]

Total stealth. Modest home exterior. Old cars and a 1998 Ford F250 pickup. Our kids don't suspect a thing or they would call more often. I think our UPS and FedEx driver might be a little suspicious. If they were delivering a Rolex I'd tell them it was a part to repair my toilet. But you can only do that for a couple of decades before they start catching on.

 

[aja8888]

Total stealth. Modest home exterior. Old cars and a 1998 Ford F250 pickup. Our kids don't suspect a thing or they would call more often. I think our UPS and FedEx driver might be a little suspicious. If they were delivering a Rolex I'd tell them it was a part to repair my toilet. But you can only do that for a couple of decades before they start catching on.

Yeah, especially if you wear the Rolex!

 

[Caskem]

Our child doesn’t even know the details of our assets and is a co-owner. Everything is spelled out so it’s no problem when we go toes up.

 

[MC Rider]

Total stealth. Modest home exterior. Old cars and a 1998 Ford F250 pickup. Our kids don't suspect a thing or they would call more often. I think our UPS and FedEx driver might be a little suspicious. If they were delivering a Rolex I'd tell them it was a part to repair my toilet. But you can only do that for a couple of decades before they start catching on.

They're not gonna believe you could need such frequent toilet repairs.

 

[athena53]

Yeah, especially if you wear the Rolex!

Nope- I wore a steel and gold Rolex for years. Once when I was wearing it (but otherwise casually dressed) a nice young man ahead of me in line paid for my Subway sandwich. I was touched- most likely I was better able to pay for it than he was. I thanked him profusely and left an extra-generous tip for the maid next time I stayed in a hotel to pay it forward.

One thing that surprised me at a charity benefit I attended (I may have mentioned it in another thread) was that after a traditional auction of donated items the auctioneer started asking for donations of specific amounts. He started with $2,500 and a few guys (they were all guys) stood up and promised to pledge that much. He continued with lower amounts with great success. I could easily make a $2,500 donation (and did quietly send them $1,000 later)- but standing up and announcing it publicly really goes against my grain- not just because I want to keep a low profile but because it seemed showy.

 

[troutnut1]

Yeah, especially if you wear the Rolex!

Hahaha! My father spent vacations in Mexico and he was a real sucker for phony over the top Rolex copies that cost almost nothing. Mom recently sent me a bag of them, I would never wear any them but I can't bear to throw them away. I do occasionally wear his vintage and well worn 70's Seiko. It kind of fits my act and tells me the time too.

 

[aja8888]

Hahaha! My father spent vacations in Mexico and he was a real sucker for phony over the top Rolex copies that cost almost nothing. Mom recently sent me a bag of them, I would never wear any them but I can't bear to throw them away. I do occasionally wear his vintage and well worn 70's Seiko. It kind of fits my act and tells me the time too.

After I retired, I'm a Fitbit watch guy. The old Rolex is in the drawer. If I have to dress to go out for a dressy occasion (funeral, wedding), I wear my old Seiko too.

 

[Cayman]

Had some elderly neighbors who both became quite ill. We were talking to their nurse one day and he said "They're people who know how to give, but don't know how to take".

That stuck with me. We tend to be "givers" but I hope some day, when the time comes, we learn how to take...for our own good.

Strong example Marko. I have another - in my 30s volunteering I purchased coats for 2 kids and drove one to an appointment. Their mother offered me something small (household item) the next time I saw them. I refused it because they were destitute. She said "Oh, so you don't take charity you only give it" ... my mistake. Humbling. Lesson learned, I hope

 

[Cayman]

Take - a bit. Remember how you felt when you gave?

There are studies, I believe, showing pleasure centers in our brains when we give and when we help others.

 

[Beachcomber]

My take on rich is the same with intelligence - there are people ahead of you and behind you, so why worry about it?

My trouble is going from building wealth to blowing the dough, but I am getting better at that lately!

 

[Koolau]

If they were delivering a Rolex I'd tell them it was a part to repair my toilet.

You mean it's NOT!

 

[CincyDave]

I detail our cars as a hobby and have all of the professional buffers, products and towels, a DI spotless water system I built myself and can be seen "washing our cars/SUV" out front which makes us look too cheap to pay for the automatic car wash places. Little do they know how much I pay for the tools, products and deionized water. One neighbor came over once and asked me about what type of wax and coating I use. I showed him and when he asked me where I get it from he didn't know about autogeek.com and when I told him the price he waved it off and said, "too expensive for me" even though he has plenty and could easily afford it. I guess he thought I was getting it from the local auto parts or Walmart or something.

I used to spend a fair amount of time on Autogeek. Ended up with more products than I'll ever use in my lifetime. I remember Pinnacle had some pretty high end stuff. Now I guess ceramic is the latest craze, but I'm not biting.

 

[livingalmostlarge]

When we bought our house we got a free coupon in the mail for a free piece of lovesac sectional sofa. 1 piece because it's modular.

So DH and I decide sure why not go see it. It's at a mall and we can go eat or something nearby. We walk in and say is this a real coupon for a free piece? Sales people say "yes it absolutely is. You bought the house right?" We say "yes". They say well you get it for free and free delivery and do you want to buy more.

DH and I say nope, we'll take the free piece and try it out. The sales people look at us in shock. They are like "want to upgrade the fabric" Us "nope. just give us the free piece." They say okay and show us the piece, fabric and delivery. 8 weeks later 1 piece of lovesac delivered.

Sweet. Our dogs LOVE sitting on it and looking out the front picture window. We never decide to spend more and buy a modular couch since it wasn't quite to our taste. It was like $600.

DH does this for a living and said they are buying property records of $X home price in zip code send mailer = likely customer.

Oh well. Is that stealth wealth? Walking in and our with a free piece of furniture? I know we surprise our neighbors whenever we go on vacation that's our one indulgence where it seems like we have money. But otherwise with the older minivan and subaru, no dressing up and rarely buying anything new, we don't seem overly well off.

But you know the court case with Gwynth Paltrow? Where they analyzed her "stealth" wealth dressing? That everything she wore screams uber rich? Apparently you had to be a fashion blogger or in the know to understand how even piece is super understatated but exceptionally expensive and exclusive?

Well guess that's stealth wealth. I mean I know she's uber wealth but her clothes I had no idea were THAT expensive.

 

[HMMY]

I'm comfortable enough that I can afford anything I want but not everything I want. We don't own cars or a vacation home. Our home is modest and we carry a mortgage because the rate is too low to make sense to pay off. We do travel internationally 4 weeks a year and fully funded 4 years of private university for two kids. I've been supporting my parents for 30+ years.

My biggest extravagance was retiring at 52. My mom didn't cash her allowance right after I retired because she thought I needed the money. In retirement, my portfolio continues to grow and I will hit 8 digits if I don't start spending more. Once my kids are self-supporting, I plan to start gifting up to the annual gift allowance because I don't want to die rich.

My friend circles run the gamut from teachers starting out to multi-millionaires. I feel wealthy depending on whom I am with. I always try to remember that comparison is the thief of joy.

 

[ERhoosier]

"Stealth Wealth" by default?

DW & I both came from 'modest-income' families and never developed expensive tastes. We had a negative NW when we got married in college. When I served in the military we based our lifestyle off of my pay alone since we could never count on her getting a new j#b if/when I got sent to new assignment. Invested her entire income for years. Never had kids. When I left the service we bought a nice home in a new region of the country but still well within our means as I did not know how the new j#b would work out. Fast forward a few decades. Not claiming to be Buffet, but investments worked rather decently and (again) we lived a nice lifestyle with honestly no desire for "bling" (give me a Rolex and I would sell it & invest proceeds). I failed at first retirement & took other j#bs (inc. some stock options). Currently still drive a 6 yr old Hyundai sedan & 12 yr old Chrysler minivan.....both still mint condition & 100% reliable. Shop for new vehicles periodically but selection is still sparse from COVID impact. Wife still enjoys bargain hunting/coupon clipping as a game.

So some months after (hopefully final) actual retirement, and with current solid fixed income investment returns, nest egg continues growing. Still trying to convince ourselves that spending helps the economy

 

[Koolau]

"Stealth Wealth" by default?

DW & I both came from 'modest-income' families and never developed expensive tastes. We had a negative NW when we got married in college. When I served in the military we based our lifestyle off of my pay alone since we could never count on her getting a new j#b if/when I got sent to new assignment. Invested her entire income for years. Never had kids. When I left the service we bought a nice home in a new region of the country but still well within our means as I did not know how the new j#b would work out. Fast forward a few decades. Not claiming to be Buffet, but investments worked rather decently and (again) we lived a nice lifestyle with honestly no desire for "bling" (give me a Rolex and I would sell it & invest proceeds). I failed at first retirement & took other j#bs (inc. some stock options). Currently still drive a 6 yr old Hyundai sedan & 12 yr old Chrysler minivan.....both still mint condition & 100% reliable. Shop for new vehicles periodically but selection is still sparse from COVID impact. Wife still enjoys bargain hunting/coupon clipping as a game.

So some months after (hopefully final) actual retirement, and with current solid fixed income investment returns, nest egg continues growing. Still trying to convince ourselves that spending helps the economy

Has Chrysler fixed their auto-trans problems? Between the family business and personally, I think we had 5 Chrysler minivans starting in about 1981 when they first came out. I think all 5 had to have transmissions fixed around 80K. Other than that, we loved them. They were good size, perfect interior for what we wanted - great kid haulers and long distance travelers. I'd have another if I could rely on the tranny. YMMV