Terrible North Miami Beach condo collapse

[MarieIG]

I think it's fairly common that builders, suppliers contractors,etc., change ownership often enough that determining who to sue - and where to find the deep pocket - will be problematic. There is probably no "megacorp" out there that would make a tasty target. If the actual company who supplied, say, substandard rebar or defective concrete could be determined to be at fault, what would their complete financial destruction put in the victims' pockets? Probably not much. Typically these major disasters end up in some sort of governmental "pool" since anyone designated as "at fault" has so little value as to be a token. YMMV

Most likely they would be looking to the carriers (unless someone wanted to "punish" the entity "at fault"). I recall, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth - having a rebar case. A large multi layer parking lot was built, without rebar in the corbels. Splat. (Amazingly, there was only one person "injured" a security guard who hurt his back jumping out of his booth when the garage collapsed. IIRC, it took out 500 cars, in addition to damaging abutting retail.) In any event, I think everyone who walked by the project was sued from the owner, to the architects (they typically walk), to the trades, to site safety, etc.

The defendant Condo would probably also want the ability to point at the builders and various inspectors (to the extent possible). But bottom line, I think there will be a lot of posturing by attorneys before eventually (under court supervision) slicing and dicing insurance coverage, but, I have been wrong before.

 

[NW-Bound]

I wonder if there's a precedent to this. How can it be proven that the building material was substandard, instead of neglect and poor maintenance by the condo owners?

And then, there's also wear-and-tear issue. We don't expect our public roadways and bridges to last forever, do we? What is reasonable to expect here for a building in a climate and terrain-challenged situation? Do experts even agree?

This is going to be messy.

 

[CardsFan]

This is going to be messy.

^^^ This.

 

[RobbieB]

The concrete mix should be easy to analyze. Probably underway right now.

 

[MarieIG]

I wonder if there's a precedent to this. How can it be proven that the building material was substandard, instead of neglect and poor maintenance by the condo owners?

And then, there's also wear-and-tear issue. We don't expect our public roadways and bridges to last forever, do we? What is reasonable to expect here for a building in a climate and terrain-challenged situation? Do experts even agree?

This is going to be messy.

1) With regard to precedent, although each case has its own particular aspects, you can usually find precedent for each of the elements; (although I would not be surprised here if someone starts shouting for criminal prosecution on some basis or other in this case due to the number of deaths).

2) Proof comes from records, forensic evidence, and "expert" opinion;

3) Lawyers for the plaintiffs will blame substandard building, defective materials AND insufficient maintenance (failure to inspect, maintain, repair, operate, warn, breach of duty, etc.) ; lawyers for the Builders will blame substandard maintenance; lawyers for the Condo will blame the builders, their inspectors, and possibly the town;

4) The argument would be that the terrain, climate, etc. here would require the defendants to be MORE vigilent not less. No, the experts, at least for the parties do NOT agree.

5) Yes. It will be messy.

 

[JustCurious]

How can it be proven that the building material was substandard, instead of neglect and poor maintenance by the condo owners?

In a case like this, there is no such thing as "instead of"... it will be alleged to be "in addition to"...and everyone and their brother related to that building will be sued... and enough evidence will be found to support all claims of negligence and all theories of liability, or at least move them forward to trial. And given the number and extent of the claims that will be made it is highly likely that all insurance coverage will be exhausted and paid long before any trial.

 

[JustCurious]

If the actual company who supplied, say, substandard rebar or defective concrete could be determined to be at fault, what would their complete financial destruction put in the victims' pockets? Probably not much.

The building was built 40 years ago, what are the chances that the suppliers and builders are still around?

 

[MarieIG]

My experience with condos was that the association insures the shared roof, the exterior (e.g. paint, stucco) and common area items (e.g., pool, tennis courts). Owners are responsible for everything from the walls in, even if caused by another owner (e.g. a washing machine that floods into adjacent units).

In a case like this, I don't see how individual owners' insurance companies would pay out, when the damage stems from failure of the main structure itself.

Liability, in this instance, is a complete mess. A cluck.

I would think the damage to the individual units should be covered by the Condo policy (and even under the Declaration there should be a duty to indemnify as it was the failure of the common elements which caused the damage to the individual unit owners).

With regard to coverage - one must look to the individual policies. Some policies cover damage to units caused by other entities or unit owners. The carrier pays the insured Unit Owner, and then brings a subrogation action to recoup its payment, i.e. XYZ Insurance Company a/s/o John Smith v. Surfside Condominium, et al. The Condo then turns that law suit over to its own carrier. This of course is more dramatic than the usual flood damage caused by one of the common element pipes.

 

[Freedom56]

The developer of the condo was a pretty shady character according to reports. He passed away in 2014. Chances are pretty high that substandard materials and shortcuts were taken during construction if the reports are true. All the people associated the design and development of the condo have passed away. So there are fewer targets for the lawyers. The only hope for the owners is to sell the land to another developer and attempt to recover some money or try to battle the building insurance company.

https://nypost.com/2021/06/27/developers-of-fla-tower-were-accused-of-paying-off-officials/

 

[Freedom56]

I would think the damage to the individual units should be covered by the Condo policy (and even under the Declaration there should be a duty to indemnify as it was the failure of the common elements which caused the damage to the individual unit owners).

With regard to coverage - one must look to the individual policies. Some policies cover damage to units caused by other entities or unit owners. The carrier pays the insured Unit Owner, and then brings a subrogation action to recoup its payment, i.e. XYZ Insurance Company a/s/o John Smith v. Surfside Condominium, et al. The Condo then turns that law suit over to its own carrier. This of course is more dramatic than the usual flood damage caused by one of the common element pipes.

Condo insurance in Florida (per the condo rider policy I have purchased) covers only the contents of the condo unit including interior finishing, water damage from plumbing, and personal liability. The structure and common areas is covered by the building insurance. The premium for building insurance for our building is $292K for calendar year 21/22. That amount is included in our monthly dues.

 

[Koolau]

The building was built 40 years ago, what are the chances that the suppliers and builders are still around?

Not very likely as I pointed out - such companies go in and out of business under different management and names, etc. My point was that, even if they are around, it's unlikely they or even their insurance company(s) would would have enough money to cover the liability of 100+ casualties. Best said by "It's going to be messy." YMMV

 

[Nick12]

There are number of sites that advertise funding the victims of the Miami incident. Hopefully all the monies donated actually help the victims and their families.

 

[Sunset]

Condo insurance in Florida (per the condo rider policy I have purchased) covers only the contents of the condo unit including interior finishing, water damage from plumbing, and personal liability. The structure and common areas is covered by the building insurance. The premium for building insurance for our building is $292K for calendar year 21/22. That amount is included in our monthly dues.

Does a condo actually carry replacement value for a building, like a homeowner does ?

After all a fire in a unit , often only damages the building a tiny bit. In a house it can easily destroy the entire structure.

 

[bclover]

It was a buyers market when condo values tanked during the recession of 2008,09. Anyone sitting on cash bought at a very attractive price. It will be interesting to see what condo prices in South FL will be after the investigation is complete. There is a lot of investor cash sitting on the sidelines

If they take a hit it will be pretty short lived.

Bottom line no matter how many hurricanes, flooding, building collapses or sink holes, warm weather and beaches will consistently attract people who want to live there.

I am one of them. My heart weeps for the agony the relatives of the remaining victims must be going through but nothing about it has changed my mind. my next move in 3-4 years will be some place warm with the ocean as my view.

 

[Nick12]

If they take a hit it will be pretty short lived.

Bottom line no matter how many hurricanes, flooding, building collapses or sink holes, warm weather and beaches will consistently attract people who want to live there.

I am one of them. My heart weeps for the agony the relatives of the remaining victims must be going through but nothing about it has changed my mind. my next move in 3-4 years will be some place warm with the ocean as my view.

A huge wake up to newcomers is to live through the prep, ride it out and post hurricane aftermath. It is price gouging at its finest led by the contractors post hurricane.

 

[Chuckanut]

Does a condo actually carry replacement value for a building, like a homeowner does ?

After all a fire in a unit , often only damages the building a tiny bit. In a house it can easily destroy the entire structure.

A fire in a condo building can easily spread to other units, much more easily than a fire in a single family structure. After all they are attached.

 

[Music Lover]

I wonder if there's a precedent to this. How can it be proven that the building material was substandard, instead of neglect and poor maintenance by the condo owners?

And then, there's also wear-and-tear issue. We don't expect our public roadways and bridges to last forever, do we? What is reasonable to expect here for a building in a climate and terrain-challenged situation? Do experts even agree?

This is going to be messy.

Even high quality building materials will fail if installed and/or used incorrectly. Of course, years of neglect and poor/non-existent maintenance will accelerate the process.

 

[Freedom56]

Does a condo actually carry replacement value for a building, like a homeowner does ?

After all a fire in a unit , often only damages the building a tiny bit. In a house it can easily destroy the entire structure.

I like many other unit owners in our building have been asking the association for the coverage limits of our building insurance. The association is going to send out electronic copies of our building insurance policy to all those who request it by the end of the week. One thing is clear, the cost of insurance will be increasing after this incident. It was already pretty high in Florida due to hurricanes.

 

[Sue J]

All the engineer types here may find this interesting. It's the building plans for Champlain Towers South.

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/do...-collins-ave-1979-plans.pdf?sfvrsn=bd2a1194_2

I was curious about the floor plans and which units fell and which didn't. But there are details about the parking garage and structure etc.

 

[Koolau]

A fire in a condo building can easily spread to other units, much more easily than a fire in a single family structure. After all they are attached.

You are correct. The proximity of units is key, of course. Having said that, condo buildings are often built with very good fire breaks. Our town house had double walls between units using sheet rock board between units which extended to the roof peak.

As shown above in post 94, concrete "egg crates" tend to be very good fire breaks. At about 1.50 minutes, you can see the actual construction used in the building. As usual YMMV.

 

[tmm99]

I wouldn't be surprised if high-rise condo prices in similar areas in FL came down a bit...

 

[karen1972]

Such a mess, so many factors at play. Such a massive tragedy and its so hard to believe some of the stuff coming out that seemed like ongoing issues. Something tells me in the end, everyone is being sued, HOA, builder, inspectors, consultants, previous homeowners, the city, etc.

I think there will be a lot of discussions going on at every HOA meeting going forward and who will and wont want to be on the HOA boards.

 

[audreyh1]

You are correct. The proximity of units is key, of course. Having said that, condo buildings are often built with very good fire breaks. Our town house had double walls between units using sheet rock board between units which extended to the roof peak.

As shown above in post 94, concrete "egg crates" tend to be very good fire breaks. At about 1.50 minutes, you can see the actual construction used in the building. As usual YMMV.

Firewall.

 

[Koolau]

Firewall.

Thanks. I knew "fire break" didn't sound right. I guess that's in a forest.

 

[audreyh1]

Firewalls have been around for a long time. Now of course most people think of the borrowed IT usage.