This ER Group and Bell Curve

[ERD50]

...We were in Glencoe (north shore suburb of Chicago ) recently to visit friends. Talk about beautiful, very expensive homes. Our friends' place was worth $6million and it was comparatively modest. He said his property taxes are $140,000per year. ...

^^^Whoa. Really??^^^^

That just made me throw up in my mouth a little bit.....

Sure, if their tax rates are the same as ours (I'm in a different county), that would be about right for a $6M house. Wiki says median home is ~ $1M in Glencoe, so a home on Lake Michigan is going to be on the very high end of that. Generally, people don't build modest homes on that kind of property, so add location to stunning home, and $6M might have you being looked down upon by your neighbors with their $8M home.

Be aware that Glencoe is a reasonable commute into Chicago (good train service), lots of high-finance and C-Level types live there. And there are near zero homes on the Lake within Chicago (Daniel Burnham had that almost completly zoned for parks and trails - he felt the lake should belong to the people, thank you Mr Burnham!). So lake front property in Chicago-land is a big deal.

I'm not so far from that area, in miles anyway, in $$$$ it's another planet!

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

When I moved to CA from Detroit back in 79 it was So. Cal, Orange County, Costa Mesa. Costa Mesa is right next to Newport Beach and yes the wealth is amazing.

If you're down that way drive around and see it. And while you're there have some food at The Crab Cooker, where you will get some of the best fish you ever ate for very little dough. It's amazing -

 

[Bestwifeever]

Sure, if their tax rates are the same as ours (I'm in a different county), that would be about right for a $6M house. Wiki says median home is ~ $1M in Glencoe, so a home on Lake Michigan is going to be on the very high end of that. Generally, people don't build modest homes on that kind of property, so add location to stunning home, and $6M might have you being looked down upon by your neighbors with their $8M home.

Be aware that Glencoe is a reasonable commute into Chicago (good train service), lots of high-finance and C-Level types live there. And there are near zero homes on the Lake within Chicago (Daniel Burnham had that almost completly zoned for parks and trails - he felt the lake should belong to the people, thank you Mr Burnham!). So lake front property in Chicago-land is a big deal.

I'm not so far from that area, in miles anyway, in $$$$ it's another planet!

-ERD50

Plus Glencoe's schools feed in New Trier High School, probably the top public high school in the country that is not a magnet or selective admission high school. Schools like that need lots of taxes.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I look at it from the other end:Being around extreme affluence always made me feel better...If you lose the envy aspect, you can be (a small) part of the experience without the price!

I agree wholeheartedly. The area I live in is fairly affluent (certainly not *extreme* in any shape or form but pretty decent for Georgia) and I like where I live. The higher home values, higher income and education attainment makes this a desirable place to live. Thankfully, the home we live in I purchased at the VERY BOTTOM of the market in 2012 and since, the value has doubled and I wouldn't be ready to pay that price if I had to buy today.

Some of the advantages I get to enjoy: pristine grocery stores with great selections, fantastic restaurants, low crime, great schools...the list goes on and one. I am not saying that there aren't good things about areas that aren't as affluent, but the fact is that *I* like it better around these high achievers!

Speaking of ER, my Dad (who lives in the same general affluent area) has a neighbor that just retired and he is 51! I was quite excited to hear this since meeting local folks who retire that early are few and far between. We had a nice long conversation about keeping cars around for many years and how we have both saved a ton of money over the years by not trading in every 3-4 years.

 

[Walt34]

Go to this site. Put in your numbers (they don't ask for any personal information) and you'll feel much better. On a global scale we're quite wealthy.

Global Rich List

 

[Teacher Terry]

About 40 years ago we lived an hour from Chicago. We started talking to a teacher that taught in a fancy suburb of Chicago. She said that when she did some home visits she was shocked to see some of the homes had very little furniture, Card table for kitchen table, etc. She said they must be spending all that $ on the mortgage.

 

[Amethyst]

The main thing I envy about affluent people is their teeth. My parents neglected mine, and they have been a trial to me all my life. Other people in my "socio" category (let alone richer ones!) always seem to have perfect teeth.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Studies have shown that your happiness level is related to how well-off you are compared to the people around you. If you make 150K and live in a neighborhood where everyone else averages 100K, you'll feel rich and are more likely to be happy. With the same 150K income but living in a neighborhood of 200K earners, you'll feel as though you're not keeping up and are more likely to be unhappy.

So choose your surroundings carefully!

 

[Persn]

When I moved to CA from Detroit back in 79 it was So. Cal, Orange County, Costa Mesa. Costa Mesa is right next to Newport Beach and yes the wealth is amazing.

If you're down that way drive around and see it. And while you're there have some food at The Crab Cooker, where you will get some of the best fish you ever ate for very little dough. It's amazing -

I loved the Crab Cooker! When I moved to California in 1984 I got an apartment over a garage on Balboa Island and lived there happily for about a year and a half. My landlords, who owned a nice new house on the other side of the island, were lovely people. I was a poor midwestern girl driving a rusted out Ford surrounded by gorgeous women with blonde bobs wearing gauzy pink jumpsuits driving Ferraris. I loved the lifestyle and surroundings even though I had no money, and I was never that envious of the conspicuous consumption set. I could hop on the ferry over to the beach and I always brought friends and family over to the Crab Cooker to eat. The only downside was I couldn't drive to places on the weekend without losing my parking space.

Now I live in the Santa Cruz area which is far less affluent than Newport Beach. I probably am more comfortable here than I would be in one of the richer cities because more of my neighbors are like me. While there are $6M houses a block away we are neither among the richest or the poorest in our neighborhood. Conspicuous consumption is less conspicuous here - most of my neighbors drive compact Japanese imports and wear shorts and flip-flops - even many of the people living in the multi-million dollar homes.

And no, I don't think the majority of people living in the coastal communities here are living beyond their means. Many have derived their wealth from their homes and thanks to Prop 13 will be able to keep them. There is a TON of newer money too, around here that is mostly tech money.

The real attraction of the California coast to me, despite the high cost of housing, is the Pacific Ocean, and the accessibility of the ocean to everybody regardless of wealth. Combine that with the fantastic climate and year-round recreational opportunities and you have a great spot for ER, whether or not you can afford the rarified air of Newport Beach, Santa Monica or San Francisco.

 

[2017ish]

The main thing I envy about affluent people is their teeth. My parents neglected mine, and they have been a trial to me all my life. Other people in my "socio" category (let alone richer ones!) always seem to have perfect teeth.

Yeah, I had this as well. "Luckily," I unknowingly was grinding my teeth for many years, which led to extensive crowns last year. So my teeth now look as if my folks had money for braces.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Studies have shown that your happiness level is related to how well-off you are compared to the people around you. If you make 150K and live in a neighborhood where everyone else averages 100K, you'll feel rich and are more likely to be happy. With the same 150K income but living in a neighborhood of 200K earners, you'll feel as though you're not keeping up and are more likely to be unhappy.

So choose your surroundings carefully!

Perhaps that is what a study has concluded, but I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt, that my income is markedly less than my neighbors. I am quite happy in that their added money into the local economy makes my life that much better.

 

[Fedup]

I drive pass this area all the time. I enjoy my drive but I have no wealth envy.

 

[Fedup]

When I moved to CA from Detroit back in 79 it was So. Cal, Orange County, Costa Mesa. Costa Mesa is right next to Newport Beach and yes the wealth is amazing.

If you're down that way drive around and see it. And while you're there have some food at The Crab Cooker, where you will get some of the best fish you ever ate for very little dough. It's amazing -

I need to try that place some time.

 

[ER Eddie]

Reading this forum, I'm going to assume many here have yearly spending between $100K-$200K.

My yearly spending is 23K. I've seen several people post similar figures. Keeping spending low is a great way to facilitate ER.

I'm fortunate that most of what I like or am interested in doesn't cost a lot of money.

 

[braumeister]

I have to think, based on my personal experience and circle of friends, that most people can afford their lifestyle.

Very well put.

I'm still not sure what the OP was driving at, beyond a temporary bout of house envy.

I see houses every day that are many times nicer than mine, and I enjoy looking at them but wouldn't necessarily want to move into one of them.

At our last house, our next door neighbor was at least an order of magnitude wealthier than anyone else in the neighborhood. His property taxes were roughly the same as our basic annual expenses, but he would still walk over now and then to ask me a question about something. He worked very hard and I don't think he had an enemy in the world. How could I be envious of someone like that?

 

[Walt34]

I see houses every day that are many times nicer than mine, and I enjoy looking at them but wouldn't necessarily want to move into one of them.

When I see houses like that I think of the maintenance costs and that's a quick turnoff.

 

[ejman]

Very fortunate that my favorite activities are hiking on the hundreds of trails here in SW Oregon, reading, listening to music with the help of my very nice Hi-Fi, cuddling with my wife of many decades and just walking along the country roads in my neck of the woods with my pooches. All very satisfying and nearly cost free (except for the original purchase price of the Hi-Fi - that was kind of spendy). So in this part of the world and stage of my life $60-70K a year does quite nicely and the portfolio generates more than that so I over saved.

 

[rayinpenn]

When I see the giant home with 40 windows I can't help but think how much they will be to replace? how high the taxes might be? how many rooms are empty each and everyday? Does all that bring them joy?

I guess I think the secret is finding a stress free happy life. For me my comfy, affordable home is more then I need. My Timex weekender is all the watch I need... my simple car the same. The point is many of us could have more/ bigger but we choose not to.

How expensive is a good cup of coffee in the morning? Having my feet up by the fire? Having my old dog sit by me? Going for a walk around the block in the cool fall air?

Stuff, I'll probably end up tripping over it.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

Go to this site. Put in your numbers (they don't ask for any personal information) and you'll feel much better. On a global scale we're quite wealthy.

Global Rich List

My wifes dead broke uncle, with his soc sec and food stamps is in the top 8.66 % of the world, without the food stamps he is in the top 12.8 %

 

[haha]

Studies have shown that your happiness level is related to how well-off you are compared to the people around you. If you make 150K and live in a neighborhood where everyone else averages 100K, you'll feel rich and are more likely to be happy. With the same 150K income but living in a neighborhood of 200K earners, you'll feel as though you're not keeping up and are more likely to be unhappy.

So choose your surroundings carefully!

This is likely true if someone is ruled by envy.

Otherwise, it makes no sense to me.

Ha

 

[1-31-18]

That is precisely who I had in mind originally - the people who live rich before they are rich and as a consequence never really become rich. Danmar is right, however, that there are enough real rich people in this country to account for a substantial number of those waterfront mansions.

Gumby and Danmar are both right.

Agreed, there are many who live above their means. The average 60-something in the US has retirement savings of something like $50K. More than a few of those folks park nice cars in the driveways of McMansions but struggle to "make payments." All hat, no cattle.

And, agreed, there also are many who live at or below their means while living extremely well. What's the saying? "You can't take it with you." So I say, "More power to them."

 

[1-31-18]

Sure, if their tax rates are the same as ours (I'm in a different county), that would be about right for a $6M house. Wiki says median home is ~ $1M in Glencoe, so a home on Lake Michigan is going to be on the very high end of that. Generally, people don't build modest homes on that kind of property, so add location to stunning home, and $6M might have you being looked down upon by your neighbors with their $8M home.

Be aware that Glencoe is a reasonable commute into Chicago (good train service), lots of high-finance and C-Level types live there. And there are near zero homes on the Lake within Chicago (Daniel Burnham had that almost completly zoned for parks and trails - he felt the lake should belong to the people, thank you Mr Burnham!). So lake front property in Chicago-land is a big deal.

I'm not so far from that area, in miles anyway, in $$$$ it's another planet!

-ERD50

There are mansions on the north shore worth tens of millions of dollars, and the tax burden on them is commensurate. These people can afford their largesse, I assure you. Very few foreclosures occurred along the lake during 2008-2009.

Suburban Chicago real estate taxes are much higher than they "should" be, because taxing real estate (and the retail sale of goods) is the main way that the government finances itself (away from the bond markets). Our income tax rate is pretty low, for now. (Even an increase to 5 percent will compare favorably to other city-states.) Real estate taxes are generally lower in the city than in the suburbs.

I believe there is only one residential building located east of the 20-some miles of Lake Shore Drive, and its construction long ago was rather controversial. Thank you, Daniel Burnham. The Chicago lakefront does indeed belong to the people: I'm looking at it right now, and my taxes are worth it. [emoji106]

 

[1-31-18]

Perhaps that is what a study has concluded, but I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt, that my income is markedly less than my neighbors. I am quite happy in that their added money into the local economy makes my life that much better.

+1

In my adult life to date, I have been the richest man in a middle class neighborhood and "median man" in uber-rich neighborhoods. My QOL was and is much higher in the latter. If all I looked at was money and property, the reverse would be the case. But the people who have more money and property than I do make for "better neighbors" in numerous ways versus those who don't. They finance cultural institutions and commission public works, for example.

I suppose YMMV, depending upon what you experience and value.

 

[ERD50]

...

I believe there is only one residential building located east of the 20-some miles of Lake Shore Drive, and its construction long ago was rather controversial. Thank you, Daniel Burnham. The Chicago lakefront does indeed belong to the people: I'm looking at it right now, and my taxes are worth it. [emoji106]

Yes,that would be Lake Point Tower, and an impressive building it is! If we are to have one building there, I'm glad it's this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Point_Tower

The architects for Lake Point Tower were John Heinrich and George Schipporeit, working under the firm name of Schipporeit and Heinrich; the two were students of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, one of the best known architects of the Bauhaus movement and International Style school, who taught at the Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago. Lake Point Tower was completed in 1968, is approximately 645 feet (197 m) tall, and was the tallest apartment building in the world at that time.

I've seen some documentaries on the history and construction, fascinating. I forgot how they got through the 'East of Lake Shore Drive' restriction, some technicality and/or payoff I assume.

-ERD50

 

[Amethyst]

Hit the nail on the head.

Beyond junior high, I don't understand the need to feel like you have everything the cool kids have. Maybe because I got used to it back then (blue-collar family in a white-collar neighborhood) it doesn't bother me now.

This is likely true if someone is ruled by envy.

Otherwise, it makes no sense to me.

Ha