US Domestic Spying

[Gumby]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

..

 

[Non sequitur]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

"They" hate freedom. We know this is true because we have been told so.

The other "they" are stealing Constitutional rights and freedoms to defeat the first "them".

Who is pulling whose strings?

Who has already lost?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

On a more personal note, I didn't risk my ass for five long years to protect a police state.
Gary

Brave statement, and I admire that perspective. Gotta remember what you are fighting for.

Labelling the antiterror effort as a "war" is fine with me. But that doesn't automatically mean suspending our American rights through secretive, nonselective, and possibly unconstitutional warrantless actions.

God bless America. Liberal or conservative, let's make sure we remember what we stand for.

 

[riskadverse]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

People get your priorities straight. This did not involve oral sex. (although alot of phone sex may come to light).

 

[JohnP]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I really don't think that Al Qaeda has to worry.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Goss1.wmv

The US citizens that have to worry with the phone tracking are those sources that call to the NYTimes and the Washington Post with honest concerns about what is transpiring in front of them.

I totally agree with gmb above. 

JohnP

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Brave statement, and I admire that perspective. Gotta remember what you are fighting for.

Labelling the antiterror effort as a "war" is fine with me. But that doesn't automatically mean suspending our American rights through secretive, nonselective, and possibly unconstitutional warrantless actions.

God bless America. Liberal or conservative, let's make sure we remember what we stand for.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner.

A real leader would have said that we will not let these attacks change our way of life or force us to take short cuts with our civil liberties and our system of laws. We cannot allow ourselves to become terrorized by the terrorists and do their work for them.

 

[laurence]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

CFB/Laurence '08! Accepting donations immediately.

 

[lets-retire]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

First of all the Fed's aren't looking at all of the phone calls leaving the country.  They are spending their limited resources on the most promising people.  How do they know they are the most promising?  They conduct interrogations, investigations, observations, and use just plain common sense.  If you consider Sami Al Arian, or Osama Bin Laden a good friend then expect to be investigated.  If they were going around like most of you seem to believe, it would be the equivalent of taking all of the covers off the books in your local college library, removing the Dewey Decimal system tags from the end of the shelves and telling you to find a quote out of some book somewhere in the library.  If you even started you would quit after a short period, because it would be too overwhelming.

Collecting intelligence is not science.  It requires best guesses, trusting people you wouldn't let guard the dirt in your gutter, and luck.  Many times it is basically a best guess situation.  Far from probable cause, maybe closer to a sneaking suspicion, which lies somewhere around a gut feeling.

Ladies and gentlemen we are at war.  The enemy is on our shores, just because they are not attacking constantly does not mean they have given up.  Terrorists have this uncanny ability to sit and watch.  When we start to relax they will strike.  It is a very smart way of conducting business, when you are massively out numbered.  Maybe if the military and the intel organizations weren't so good at their respective jobs they would receive a little more support. If they weren't so good we would have bombs blowing up, biological agents released in many of our high value targets, and general mayhem running amuck.  Then maybe the American people would understand that we are at war.  It doesn't matter if you think it's only happening over there the terrorists groups know and believe they can successfully attack over here.  They have done it.  I can think of many ways to attack most of the high profile targets in this country.  Mostly because if you want to stop an attack you have to figure out where a target is vulnerable.  That is what I have been trained to do, stop the attack.

 

[laurence]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

First of all the Fed's aren't looking at all of the phone calls leaving the country. They are spending their limited resources on the most promising people. How do they know they are the most promising? They conduct interrogations, investigations, observations, and use just plain common sense. If you consider Sami Al Arian, or Osama Bin Laden a good friend then expect to be investigated. If they were going around like most of you seem to believe, it would be the equivalent of taking all of the covers off the books in your local college library, removing the Dewey Decimal system tags from the end of the shelves and telling you to find a quote out of some book somewhere in the library. If you even started you would quit after a short period, because it would be too overwhelming.

Isn't "If you aren't doing anything wrong, why are you worried?" something from "1984"

Collecting intelligence is not science. It requires best guesses, trusting people you wouldn't let guard the dirt in your gutter, and luck. Many times it is basically a best guess situation. Far from probable cause, maybe closer to a sneaking suspicion, which lies somewhere around a gut feeling.

While this is sometimes true with HUMINT, that's hardly the case with COMINT, SIGINT, or IMINT. Maverick cops who play by their own rules makes good prime time t.v., but....

Ladies and gentlemen we are at war. The enemy is on our shores, just because they are not attacking constantly does not mean they have given up. Terrorists have this uncanny ability to sit and watch. When we start to relax they will strike. It is a very smart way of conducting business, when you are massively out numbered. Maybe if the military and the intel organizations weren't so good at their respective jobs they would receive a little more support. If they weren't so good we would have bombs blowing up, biological agents released in many of our high value targets, and general mayhem running amuck. Then maybe the American people would understand that we are at war. It doesn't matter if you think it's only happening over there the terrorists groups know and believe they can successfully attack over here. They have done it. I can think of many ways to attack most of the high profile targets in this country. Mostly because if you want to stop an attack you have to figure out where a target is vulnerable. That is what I have been trained to do, stop the attack.

So that's the part where we cry "uncle" right? We didn't notice we were at war, thanks for pointing that out. Ooops, that means the Constitution, Bill of Rights etc. get used as toilet paper? It's sort of a can't lose John Birch society way of arguing, if we aren't attacked all the intrusive measures are working, if we are attacked again, look, see? We need more intrusive measures! I have a banana in my ear to keep away the elephants. But there aren't any elephants for miles! See? It's working!

Look, I want the troops to have every resource to fight the war, every resource that is legal and constitutional. I see a Federal government taking advantage of fear to increase the power of the Exectuive branch and we should all be alarmed by it. It is our duty, if we do love this country, to question those in power, and work to preserve the delicate balance of powers so masterfully set up by our founding fathers. Let's leave the cult of personalities to soviet era dictatorships.

 

[eridanus]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

The argument "if you have nothing to hide, why worry?" depends on the people running the program. Are they people of integrity? Would they abuse data? Would they fabricate stories to invade a country? Would they out a CIA covert operative for political gain?

 

[gtmeouttahere]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

If we are wire tapping only suspected terrorists or their affiliations, why is this wrong? 

First of all, they are NOT CITIZENS of America and therefore do not have the same right to privacy that American citizens do.  If we are at war and they are our enemy, part of our job is gathering intel.  And these sneaky bastards are here right now plotting their next move.  They are no different than spys with intent to harm.  Intent has already been proven by their actions so we have every right to take action, and the situation will dictate that action.

People really need to get over themselves.  The government, in this situation, could care less about most of our dull lives.  They are only going after persons of interest. 

It is our duty and obligation as a nation to defend ourselves against attack from all enemies foriegn and domestic.  It is no different than any other war situation our country has been in.  The big difference is that our enemy is not a country so intel gathering has to change within the abilities and the network of our enemy.  We HAVE to evolve and adapt our policies with that of the ever changing technologys of our enemy.

That being said, if they ever cross the line and attempt to prosecute American citizens for anything other than terrorism related activities, I'll be the first to cry foul.  It would never hold up in court anyway because it violates the rights of the citizen.  BIG difference!!!

 

[uncledrz]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

We have always had threats, foreign and domestic.

What is so appalling about this administration is its decision to disregard the checks and balances in its actions and intelligence gathering.

We have secret courts under FISA. When those courts are in session unauthorized persons can't get on the floor where court is held, into the courtroom, windows blacked out, separate entrances, restricted entry, no public records kept, US Marshall Service on guard, only clerks with security clearance, etc. These courts are secret, but they also have Constitution safeguards.

Our country started out as a rejection of arbitrary governmental authority replaced with a system of checks and balances on the exercise of governmental authority. When the administration seeks to circumvent and ignore those procedures it hurts us to the core, much more that the foreign terrorists.

 

[Non sequitur]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

uncledrz

You are correct.

 

[unclemick]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Hmmm - first cup of coffee thoughts.

Having held a few security clearances of various types over the years - my tongue in cheek prefers domestic spying over the stinking paperwork.

But having seen the history channel on the McCarty era and Hoover's files kept during the Civil Rights era - I go back and forth.

Security camera's and recording conversation's are standard business practice now a days - litigation protection wise.

And having read my credit report back when I bought a house in 2005 - hmmm.

Being an old defense contractor type employee - maybe we should contract out domestic spying and pay bonus bounty for real live terriosts?

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh - welcome to the modern world.

Spying in all it's forms has been and will be with us - at least in my lifetime.

 

[poboy]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

I guess the good news is the fact terrorists do not read, watch or listen to any or our "scoop" reporting, therefore, they have not been alerted .

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Theres a lot of assumptions going on here that arent correct.

"We are only spying on people who arent citizens". Incorrect. The phone records of over 100M people have been collected.

"We are at war". No we are not. A bunch of radical yahoos that are pissed at how we've conducted our political business in their home countries have chosen to commit crimes against our people here and abroad. That isnt even as good of an excuse as the ones we used to round up US citizens who were Japanese and herd them into camps in WW2.

"We're only looking at people who are suspicious or that we have information may be linked". No we are not. This is a broad net thats been cast that is then being used upside down to find connections between current suspicious people and newly suspicious people. We have no solid proof and no convictions that the people being examined have committed a crime, because the judicial branch of our government has not been utilized to fulfil its purpose, per the constitution and the bill of rights.

There also seems to be a proferred level of competency being given to these agencies...you know...the ones who all swore there were WMD's in Iraq?

"If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about". Right. The average american breaks 5-7 laws in the course of a day, most of them minor moving violations and petty misdemeanors. Everyone does "something" wrong. And clearly the people saying this have never ever been on the wrong end of the police. Their job is to fit you into the box of "evidence" they've gathered to the extent where a conviction can be obtained and they can go back to eating donuts.

Let me share the source of my angst. I have a friend I used to work with, who is an american citizen who relocated here from Jordan via Kuwait as a teenager. Shortly after 9/11 he was seized at gunpoint from his home in front of his wife and children by helmeted stormtroopers who ripped their house apart and took all of the computers and electronics. He was held as a "material witness" for almost a year with limited contact with his family and friends.

His crimes? He donated about $10,000 to a muslim charity which was later "tied to terrorist links" - although no proof ever came about, the charity still operates, and the 'terrorist links' appear to have gone off with the Iraqi WMD's. A lot of people gasped about the $10,000 amount. For a silicon valley guy dragging in a quarter to a half mil in stock options, thats a drop in the bucket. Oh yeah, and the charity donations were strongly urged by the leader of his mosque.

He also may have tried to obtain a plane ticket to fly into a country bordering afghanistan shortly after we invaded.

Thats it.

A case was made that he financially supported terrorism and may have intended to help aid and fight against our troops in afghanistan. He didnt actually DO anything.

At the end of more than a year of being held in jail without being charged or given a trial, this american citizens life was essentially over. His legal fees had eaten him and his family literally out of house and home. When he ran out of money for good legal defense, and without a decent case, he was offered a moderately lengthy jail sentence (he'll get out right about the time his young children are sending their kids off to high school) if he plead guilty to a charge of conspiracy to wage war against the US. His alternative was to remain in jail as a material witness indefinitely and ultimately face charges that could lead to life imprisonment or a treason charge.

It appears he may have been "involved" with some actual bad actors from his mosque. By involved, I mean he spoke with them, a few of them had some terrorist group links, and a few of them possessed illegal weapons.

So the case is:

- Made a donation at his churchs behest
- Looked at buying but cancelled the purchase of a plane ticket to a country neighboring afghanistan
- Knowing people who might have been criminals

He was 'reported' by his neighbors, who were quite uncomfortable with the arab guy who might be a terrorist who moved into the very high end upper class predominately white subdivision.

By the way, I know the guy. He's about as much of a terrorist as anybody else I know.

He didnt do anything wrong or commit any crimes.

Just a victim of some random data gathering...a donation...a cancelled online airline ticket purchase transaction...a 'tip' call from a neighbor.

Are we safer now?

 

[JohnP]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

CFB -

I mourn for your friend, an American citizen who lost all his Constitutional Rights in this extra-legal show trial.  As Pogo said, we have found the enemy and it is us.

No - we are not more safe due to his experience.  Additionally, the 911 culprits are not any closer to being apprehended as long as it is more politically expedient for them to be on-the-loose as we argue whether there is a long-war or not.

I thank you for your elegance in presenting his particulars to us REers.

JohnP

 

[mickeyd]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

As long as the IRS does't look at my fabricated tax return too closley, I don't give a damn what US government agency digs into my phone or internet connections or yours.

(Hello NSA, if you are peeking at me today. )

 

[eridanus]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

People really need to get over themselves.  The government, in this situation, could care less about most of our dull lives.  They are only going after persons of interest. 

You miss the point. The people making the decision to hold someone as a "material witness" or an "enemy combatant" (aka, we don't need no stinkin' Constitution) are fallible humans. Some are also power-hungry and would use their knowledge for political or personal gain. Some are just stupid. With checks and balances, this activity is hindered. With a disregarding Presidency and a blase/rubberstamping Congress, the checks and balances are...unbalanced.

Innocent people faced the potato sack under Videla in Argentina. Innocent people were ruined by McCarthy.

But, hey, It Can't Happen Here. The government is at the door and it's here to help. Right?

 

[lets-retire]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

CFB--You are correct in that not all of the suspected people are not US citizens. Some are some aren't that's the way it works with immigaration. Think about it do you really think the Feds are looking through the records of 100m people. Do you realize how many agents that would take. Not to mention there are more phone calls made every day. The Feds don't have the resources to look at everything. They can't. So as I stated before their search is limited to those they have received information about who probably have connections to an international terrorist group. That's the b#$%^ of the job, your damed if you do and your damed if you don't. Do you even realize how many investigation into people are started, but the subjuect is never contacted, because no evidecne of wrong doing is produced. There are a lot.

However your comment that we are not at war is off, Congress has allocated money for the use of military action and declared war, with bi-partisan support, for the purpose of hunting down and killing Al Queada members. Yet you say were not at war. I don't ever remember the G saying they were done fighting the war on terror. That is the reason for the POW camp at GitMo.

The story your friend provided has many holes that make me question his position. Althougth it could be in the translation, it is being told by a second person to a thrid person.

 

[samclem]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

CFB,
Thanks for the personal account of your friend's present situation.

It wasn't clear if he's decided to take the deal or go to trial. The court system is designed to offer the ultimate protection to the wrongly accused--it's not perfect, but it's amongthe best in the world by most accounts. I hope your friend, if he believes he is innocent, goes to trial. If he does, you should hope that a lot of collection was done against his communications, since during discovery the defense can get these records (with some effort) and help to establish his innocence. If the records aren't released, he'll be in good shape for an acquittal.

At the risk of stirring up a firestorm:
-- There's a lot of strange circumstantial information here. If this individual had driven a carbomb up to a govt bulding, we'd all be reading about the "failure of police to do anything about a man with known ties to local radical living in our midst. Despite tips from those who knew him, a record of donating large sums to extremeist groups, and associations with domestic radicals, police failed in their . . ." You get the idea.

-- I don't think shutting down police investigative tools is the best way to protect the innocent. We need to be vigilant against unwarranted searches, but that is to protect privacy. Improper detentions can best be defended against by a vigilant court system, including civil court procedings where warranted.

 

[HFWR]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Minor nit, but Congress has NOT declared war...

 

[eridanus]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

So as I stated before their search is limited to those they have received information about who probably have connections to an international terrorist group.

10s of millions of Americans have connections to international terrorist groups?!?

Joe McCarthy, is that you?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

How do you "declare war" on an unstructured enemy without a country or really any specific location?

Its a criminal investigation. And we dont let the police just listen in to anyones private discussions (written or verbal) without probable cause or a warrant.

Picking up the phone or hitting the 'send' key isnt probable cause.

As far as my friend, he wasnt given the option of a trial. In fact he wasnt charged. He was held like the guys at guantanamo bay...as a material witness/enemy combatant. He was kept from his family and only given a lawyer after a period of time.

I can tell you exactly what happened and the genesis, for the edification of the folks who think the government tries hard to "do it right". He got on a watch list because his neighbors called in "that terrorist looking fellow that lives in our neighborhood and always has other terrorist looking fellows over to the house". He mosque recommended a donation to a muslim charity that they believed favored good causes, none of which have ever been determined to be in support of terrorism.

He and some co-worshippers, several of which are more recently from various muslim countries, became concerned about our invasion of afghanistan and whether this was a war on terrorism or a war on muslims. They talked about travelling to afghanistan, perhaps fighting, perhaps helping refugees...they werent really particularly sure. They just thought they ought to do something. Some of them got plane tickets. Some didnt. This guy got as far as the confirmation stage on buying the ticket, then cancelled.

His donation was "discovered" by the government group covering his existence on the "watchlist" when a computer spit out the correlation of his being on the watchlist, having made a large cash donation to a muslim charity suspected of terrorist ties...and a cancelled ticket request to fly to a country adjacent to afghanistan.

The bottom line: he didnt DO anything. He wasnt GOING to do anything. He THOUGHT about doing SOMETHING. He wasnt sure what. He decided to do NOTHING.

He did find out the answer to the question: "is it a 'war' against muslims or terrorists", I guess.

The justice department needed some wins to show they're "making progress". They ruined this guys entire life, his family's life, and made his kids hate America. In the end it was "Ya wanna rot in jail pretty much forever, maybe get a trial, probably lose, probably spend 40 years in prison, or will you 'rat out' your friends, throw yourself on the mercy of the court, and get a middling length sentence?". After more than a year of staring at the bars until he ran out of money, he accepted the latter.

Wake up people.

 

[JB]

Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

Theres a lot of assumptions going on here that arent correct.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the Bill of Rights is the 'law of the land' that applies to everyone, not just American citizens.  Citizenship is required to be a Representative, Senator, or President.