US Domestic Spying

How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying

  • Very UnHappy - Want To Shoot Everyone Involved Out Of Cannon

    Votes: 36 43.4%
  • UnHappy

    Votes: 15 18.1%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 5 6.0%
  • Don't Care

    Votes: 5 6.0%
  • It's A Good Thing

    Votes: 16 19.3%
  • Shouldn't Happen - But Doesn't Really Bother Me

    Votes: 6 7.2%

  • Total voters
    83
CFB,
-- Given your concerns (improper arrest/denial of rights without due process), would it not be more effective to concentrate on restoring the safegaurds that have traditionally protected against these problems (the normal or FISA warrant process, open trials, etc)? Law enforcement has always had to contend with bad information, and the traditional safeguards do a good job of protecting folks from imprisonment based on a single piece of bad info. Trying to prevent law enforcement from making mistakes by denying them info which they believe will be useful (and which is widely available) is, IMO, not the best way of addressing any of the three challenges we have (preventing terrorism, protecting privacy, protecting the rights of the accused).
 
Maybe we need to see a similar thread based on the discovery of FBI files in the Clinton White House. I wonder if the sides would change?

The law that supposedly allows this NSA activity was also passed during the Clinton administration. Does anyone think that it didn't go on then or was it all right then? This has only come to light due to a leak by a disgruntled congressional staffer or a member of congress. Someone committed a felony revealing this.
 
Sam -

Since the govt appears to have very little interest in the 'traditional protections' and checks/balances, and considers trading my civil rights for weak to non-existent "safety", until the traditional protections/checks/balances are restored, my only option (other than to press for a restoration of proper operation of the three branches of government) is to keep information away from them...in particular...bad information. Which is to say, most of it.

We wont stop terrorism. But we will stop large organized plots. Those involve a lot of people. Theres a money trail. There are actions taken that are noteworthy. Products bought. Training taken.

We had all the info we needed to identify the 9/11 attack before it happened. That we didnt act wasnt due to a lack of data or information, theory and knowledge. It was because it wasnt taken seriously and the people who had the piece parts didnt want to talk to each other.

Pouring phone numbers and call information, library books, medical test records, dental records, and other consumer information into a mass database for perusal solves none of those problems that kept us from stopping 9/11. And all of those problems still exist.

So while I know a lot of people take the attitude that the government can perform daily invasive rectal exams on them if it prevents terrorism, a lot of others know that the actions currently being taken are about as beneficial.

The good news is that we're spending billions of dollars on it, so the terrorists dont need to attack anything. They can sit back and watch cartoons while we hack away at our civil rights, demolish our faith in our government, live in constant fear that is sponsored by our own elected officials, and pour a trillion dollars down the drain.

Nothing at all, short of a successful dirty bomb or nuclear detonation in a major city, could do as much damage as we've done to ourselves within our own borders and between the US and just about every other country in the world. Besides savaging the bill of rights and deeply dividing our people, we've turned what was almost universal sympathy on 9/12 to almost universal distrust and hatred in just a few short years.

And the solution is to cut into our rights and collect more flakey data?

I think not.

2B - I dont care if it was clinton, democrats, bush, republicans, karl rove, the beaver cheese society or little green men. Liberals or conservatives, bible thumpers or gun nuts.

It really makes no difference who started it. Or why.

I used to run into the same thing in business. We'd collect what we knew was faulty data and then try to make business decisions on it. In a lot of cases, all it took was a little intelligence.

How about instead of millions, billions and trillions spent on what we're doing now, we x-ray all airline checked baggage, look in every cargo container that comes into the US, improve our border controls and lock up the sealanes off of our coasts. Dont let people into the country without taking a hard look at them, and find and get them out when their visa's expire. Tear up the homeland security bureaucracy and stop the interdepartmental horseshit once and for all.

You can still run a small boat up to one of our more barren coastlines and unload ten guys and a dirty bomb or a nuke. If you're smart and careful, you can get away with it 90-something percent of the time. Heck, a million tons of drugs get into the country every year and our best efforts havent stopped THAT.

Until we stop those big problems, downloading who I called on the phone doesnt even make the top 100 of the list of good things to do to detect and stop terrorists.
 
I'd rather be a shitload less right and a shitload less fake-"safe" and have the money we put into the TSA and Homeland Security spent on baggage x-rays, cargo inspections and immigration/visa security...oh yeah and pay the FBI and CIA to "follow the money trail" and "Keep an eye on the usual suspects", just like a decent detective does. Instead, we're proud that we just shook down a grandma in a wheelchair and a US senator at the airport and fighting over whether we can wiretap a "suspected terrorist" and download everyones phone records "but only look at the terrorists".

Last time I checked, a "suspect" wasnt a criminal until charged and convicted and evidence gathered was done so legally and with the oversight of a judge to assure it was legal. We claim we "need speed" to be effective, yet we lack the arabic speaking translators to even translate the information we're gathering in a timely manner.

And the government is sending people around to "educate" local police on how to employ the patriot act principles against ordinary criminals. Hence, i'm not buying the "government good, only looking for terrorists" line.

Makes me wanna puke.
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
Makes me wanna puke.

Ah CFB, you miss the whole point. The NSA leak is to show how evil GWB is. Not that I won't agree with his critics, I just haven't seen anyone focus on what it will really take to improve our security. Our wonderful congress postures and potificates. They get their sound bites. What I don't see is anyone getting our security improved. Anything suggested by a Repub is racist and erodes civil liberty no mater how irrelevant it is. The Dems propose vague ambiguities without substance.

As usual, we're waiting for the next election and the next and the next.......

I've already puked.
 
All I can say is that we used to fight an enemy.

That enemy foisted its way of life onto smaller countries by way of force, expanding their evil empire throughout whole regions. They spied on their citizens, recorded their conversations and patterns of behavior, and maintained secret police and jails. Citizens were arrested, whisked off to secret trials or no trials, and imprisoned in undisclosed locations. All supposedly to reduced dissidents and maintain order within the country. People were told what they could and couldnt do, even when those activities were very specific to their personal lives and had no effect on others or the governments smooth operation.

Who's the USSR now...? :p

I just read the at&t documents that were leaked by the whistleblower employee...go read them before they're struck off of the various web sites. Wired.com has a copy as of right now. Pretty chilling stuff.

Then go read the newsblip that Gonzalez thinks anyone, including the media, who whistleblows via use of any confidential information is a criminal and will go to jail.

Its a very slippery slope...we're sliding pretty fast right now.
 
This just in:

"WASHINGTON - Personal data, including     Social Security numbers of 26.5 million U.S. veterans, was stolen from a Veterans Affairs employee this month after he took the information home without authorization, the department said Monday. "


I'd have scathing commentary on this, but being one of the 26.5 million, I'm too busy trying to freeze my credit reports against this breech of my personal information to go on at length.

Suffice it to say that no matter HOW much we trust the government's motives in gathering and storing information, its sheer incompetence should be enough to keep us up nights.

Caroline   
 
Caroline said:
I'd have scathing commentary on this, but being one of the 26.5 million, I'm too busy trying to freeze my credit reports against this breech of my personal information to go on at length.

How do you know your information was stolen, did the VA notify you?
 
Did the VA notify me? Nothing so personal.

I just read an article on the newswire, with a link to instructions on what to do. It could be the case that the thief was just burgling the house and doesn't know what he / she has.

But who wants to take the risk?
 
Remember when just about everybody had a bumper sticker on their car - now a days seems like the ones that do have about 20 - 40.


Well it was one of those cars that had this on it - I Love My Country...I Fear My Government

Made me want to put it on my car and I hate BSs...
 
Now the FBI & Justice and Gonzales have stepped on congress's toes with their raid on Congressman Jefferson's office....understand Hastert says there is a separation of the branches that has to be respected.
 
Yep. Bush has ordered the materials held until someone can figure out that dangnabbed constitution thing. Apparently this hasnt happened in over 200 years and nobody knows what to do.

The good news is that Jefferson is a democrat, so I'm sure I know how it'll end up being resolved.
 
alphabet soup said:
If I was a NeoFascist Republican, I'd be puking daily by now.
Cut-Throat's production has been way up lately; maybe he has some to share...
 
Cute Fuzzy Bunny said:
Yep.  Bush has ordered the materials held until someone can figure out that dangnabbed constitution thing.  Apparently this hasnt happened in over 200 years and nobody knows what to do.

The good news is that Jefferson is a democrat, so I'm sure I know how it'll end up being resolved.

As a conservative, I will say it does not matter to me if dem or rep... the Justice department was following leads of criminal activity... they went before a judge and got a WARRANT... it said what they could look for (more than likely)...

Now, if they just went in with no warrant, grabbed the info and did not tell anyboy because it was for national security some people would be OK.. not me..
 
Texas Proud said:
.. they went before a judge and got a WARRANT...

Really?  Then I'm confused........again.  (Yeah I know brewer and sgeeee, I've got a small mind......rub it in why don't ya?)  President Bush is going after phone calling records without a warrant and defending that policy.  But now he's holding material seized with a warrant until?  All you legal/political experts, why the inconsistency?

The local press here says the attacks on Jefferson are because he'a a Dem and a minority.  Is President Bush just trying to cover up the real reason for the break-in? 
 
youbet said:
Really?  Then I'm confused........again.  (Yeah I know brewer and sgeeee, I've got a small mind......rub it in why don't ya?)  President Bush is going after phone calling records without a warrant and defending that policy.  But now he's holding material seized with a warrant until?  All you legal/political experts, why the inconsistency?

The local press here says the attacks on Jefferson are because he'a a Dem and a minority.  Is President Bush just trying to cover up the real reason for the break-in? 

I can't claim to be a constitutional expert, but my understanding is that this has snowballed into a separation of powers dispute. The executive branch isn't supposed to police the legislative branch because it opens to door to overweening influence/intimidation of one branch of the feddly gummint by another. The octopus that is this administration seems to think it can and should run everything. I think that they are about to get bitch-slapped by Congress.
 
brewer12345 said:
I can't claim to be a constitutional expert, but my understanding is that this has snowballed into a separation of powers dispute. The executive branch isn't supposed to police the legislative branch because it opens to door to overweening influence/intimidation of one branch of the feddly gummint by another. The octopus that is this administration seems to think it can and should run everything. I think that they are about to get bitch-slapped by Congress.

Ding Ding Ding!

A congresscritters private offices at the capitol have historically been considered sacrosanct as part of the separation of powers.
 
youbet said:
Really?  Then I'm confused........again.  (Yeah I know brewer and sgeeee, I've got a small mind......rub it in why don't ya?)  President Bush is going after phone calling records without a warrant and defending that policy.  But now he's holding material seized with a warrant until?  All you legal/political experts, why the inconsistency?

The local press here says the attacks on Jefferson are because he'a a Dem and a minority.  Is President Bush just trying to cover up the real reason for the break-in? 

Like the last few posts... the problem is that they went to a congressman's office... separation of powers etc..

So, if I am a congressman and I run an illegal operation out of my congress office, the Justice department can not come in and search for the evidence to convict me?? Just because it had not happened before does not mean there is not a valid reason to do it... they did go to the third branch of government and ask if it would be OK to search based on the law... the third branch said 'yes'...

Now, I am one of the ones that think all of the spying stuff should have the third branch looking into it to protect my rights... considering that there are a lot of people in the Congress that think the same way as I do... and if Clinton was in office most of the republicans would also think like I do... then why doesn't someone act:confused:
 
Texas Proud said:
So, if I am a congressman and I run an illegal operation out of my congress office, the Justice department can not come in and search for the evidence to convict me?? 

You got it. That's how things are done here in these Yoo-nighted States, at least for the last 219 years. If Congress has a dirty rotten scoundrel, the Fan Belt Inspectors can do lots of stuff and grand juries can indict them, but raiding the Congressional offices is a no-no. This hasn't presented lots of Congress-critters who are dirty from being indicted, tried, convicted, and even sent to the Big House (Tom Delay and the Calif. greaseball that sold out to te defense contractors come to mind as examples).

Congress also has its own (lax) enforcement structures that work if enough dirty stuff is pointed out to them.
 
Thanks for the explanation.

So, where does this leave Jefferson? I assume he's off the hook? If, indeed, he should have ever been on the hook.
 
Jefferson guilty, got caught on video taking a bribe and found the money $90000 in his home in the freezer.
The raid on his office was related and not necessary for conviction.
IMHO, the outrage from Hastert is more to protect his own butt. Although I think the seperation of powers issue is a valid.
 
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