Washington state plan to replace gas tax with a tax per mile.

[Fermion]

I mostly agree with you. Roads are expensive enough that any politically acceptable road tax isn't going to cover their full costs.

Given current highway death and injury rates, I do think it's fair to fund a proportion of emergency medical services through road taxes.

And a road system supports other things too, delivery of food, fire department services, military response.

Just because YOU don't drive a personal vehicle on the road does not mean you don't benefit from a well maintained road system.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

I don't understand why you believe use taxes are a stupid way to fund roads.

And a road system supports other things too, delivery of food, fire department services, military response.

Just because YOU don't drive a personal vehicle on the road does not mean you don't benefit from a well maintained road system.

Fermion summed it up. I didn't want to get into the politics of what solutions are preferable because it's leading us off-topic and into Porky territory, my point was more that the revenue should be a set line item and not dependent on a variable (gas sales) that has the potential to vary greatly in the not too distant future.

 

[HawkOwl]

And a road system supports other things too, delivery of food, fire department services, military response.

Just because YOU don't drive a personal vehicle on the road does not mean you don't benefit from a well maintained road system.

And just because a non-auto owner doesn’t pay directly to maintain roads doesn’t mean that they aren’t paying indirectly through the cost of the services you mentioned.

 

[ownyourfuture]

I mostly agree with you. Roads are expensive enough that any politically acceptable road tax isn't going to cover their full costs.

I don't know what amount of federal excise tax would be politically acceptable, but the fact that it hasn't been raised in close to 30 years certainly explains why it's become rundown.

The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel. The federal tax was last raised October 1, 1993 and is not indexed to inflation, which increased 93% from 1993 until 2022.

 

[Chuckanut]

I don't understand why you believe use taxes are a stupid way to fund roads. IMHO the "inappropriate" thing about road taxes is that some taxing authorities allow the taxes to be used for other things beside roads but YMMV.

One of the points made in the recent WA discussion of a mileage based Use Tax is that while the gas tax is constitutionally limited to roads, there is no such limit on a Use Tax. This opens up all sorts of opportunities for politicians to raise the Use Tax for other non transportation schemes.

 

[Koolau]

Fermion summed it up. I didn't want to get into the politics of what solutions are preferable because it's leading us off-topic and into Porky territory, my point was more that the revenue should be a set line item and not dependent on a variable (gas sales) that has the potential to vary greatly in the not too distant future.

Well, I guess the good news is we can both be happy. Most taxing authorities not only have road taxes but also line items devoted to roads. Voilà!

 

[Happyras]

Well, too late, in WA we already pay more for licensing if you have an EV or PHEV to make up for the gas tax. So this new tax is coming out of no where to tax everyone even more, I am sure they will keep the EV tax on licensing and add this new per mile tax to the already way to high gas tax.

 

[Chuckanut]

Well, too late, in WA we already pay more for licensing if you have an EV or PHEV to make up for the gas tax. So this new tax is coming out of no where to tax everyone even more, I am sure they will keep the EV tax on licensing and add this new per mile tax to the already way to high gas tax.

That is one of the many unanswered questions. Given the history of the past four years it’s hard to imagine the current legislature and the gov lowering any tax or fee by any amount.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I mostly agree with you. Roads are expensive enough that any politically acceptable road tax isn't going to cover their full costs.

Given current highway death and injury rates, I do think it's fair to fund a proportion of emergency medical services through road taxes.

While it originally made sense to pay for road building and maintenance with gas taxes, I think that era is long gone. I would love to see a tax that hits everyone, citizens and non-citizens, equally to pay for first world infrastructure like roads, EMS, and so forth.

The closest approach I can see to doing this fairly is a sales tax applied to everything, gas, food, entertainment, electricity, everything. The more you consume and participate in the economy the higher your contribution. If you live as a hermit in the woods with no impact, you don't need to pay.

 

[Janet H]

Well, too late, in WA we already pay more for licensing if you have an EV or PHEV to make up for the gas tax. So this new tax is coming out of no where to tax everyone even more, I am sure they will keep the EV tax on licensing and add this new per mile tax to the already way to high gas tax.

Yes, but we have no state income tax. It's an important consideration when making these comparisons. We also have no vehicle inspections and while there are some clear issues with the proposal on the table, it's clear that WA state is lacking some commonly used revenue streams that pay for roads.

Having lived on both sides of the state, it's my opinion that folks in rural eastern WA (and with lower incomes) will bear the burden of this scheme as many more miles are driven to get anywhere and public transportation options are limited.

 

[Chuckanut]

Yes, but we have no state income tax. It's an important consideration when making these comparisons.
.

But the income tax camel has its nose in the tent. The so-called excise tax on Capital Gains for the rich will be heard by the SC soon. If they OK this scheme it will be Katie Bar the Door in regards to more excise taxes on income. Already there is a bill in legislature to raise the cap gains rate and lower the exemption to 15,000 dollars. Remember,just two years ago, this was sold on the basis that this tax was supposed to apply only to a few hundred of the wealthiest people in the state.

 

[Happyras]

Our WA sales tax is over the top high and even more so the vehicle sales tax and the Excise tax on real estate sales was just raised again AND our basic real estate tax is very high and the so call wind fall from the Lottery sales were supposed to keep that low. The more you can tax and raise money, the more will be budgeted to spend. As pointed out, once this barn door is now open it will lead to taxing everyone with any form of capital gain income, so kiss your home investment for retirement goodbye. In this ideal state, only those with investment income will carry the state tax burden for those that do not. I believe the real road use is by commercial vehicles and heavy equipment hauling, which is far more damaging than a 3000 lb vehicle with 35 lb infalated tires.

The roads should be funded by the general revenue in the state and those vehicles doing commercial hauling should pay the major share of any deficit costs.

 

[Happyras]

Dan Evans is 97 and still kicking, I wonder what he thinks of all this. He was gubiner 1965 to 1977, and then the $&*t hit the fan....

BTW....here is one quote from Dan;
“I learned a lot from my father, who was an engineer and [who] ultimately ended up as King County Engineer,” Evans said.

As King County Engineer, Dan Evans’ father Les Evans ran the road and other infrastructure-building part of King County government for 13 years.

He observed his father patiently listening to ornery county commissioners – when King County was run by a three-member board of commissioners – to hear about their desires to pave as many miles of roads as cheaply as possible. Their goal was to serve as many of their constituents as quickly as possible, and thereby increase each commissioner’s chances of re-election.

But Les Evans, his son Dan says, was successful in persuading the commissioners that building fewer miles of the right kinds of roads – more expensive, but longer lasting and made from concrete – was the right thing to do, if not the most politically expedient.

 

[Chuckanut]

Note that the mileage use plan says zero about doing away with the existing tax on a gallon of gas. Even some of the DOT people were curious about what happens to the current gas tax (the third highest in the nation), and the current extra tab fees for EVs and hybrid cars. What will the legislature do? We don’t know at this time.

It really is a very complicated issue with many unknowns.

 

[Gotadimple]

One other point about this proposed tax. Washington state has an initiative and referendum process. Voters can propose changes through an initiative to the legislature. The legislature can forward approved legislation to voters to approve/reject specific legislation - that vote is binding.

Both initiatives and referendums appear at the next general election, after the appropriate signatures have been gathered and validated.

Many years ago, the legislature passed a law that would extend the state Sales Tax to all food purchases. Very quickly a huge number of signatures on an initiative were gathered and confirmed. That initiative was added to the next general election and voted down with a very high percentage.

So - do what you want, voters still have power to override legislative actions.

- Rita

 

[Jeffman52]

I get why they want to do this but most of these kinds of taxes end up in the General fund for most States and don't always go toward the end that you were taxed for. Most States are entirely unapologetic about how misleading it is to tax for one purpose but used for another.

 

[Chuckanut]

One other point about this proposed tax. Washington state has an initiative and referendum process. Voters can propose changes through an initiative to the legislature. The legislature can forward approved legislation to voters to approve/reject specific legislation - that vote is binding.



Both initiatives and referendums appear at the next general election, after the appropriate signatures have been gathered and validated.



Many years ago, the legislature passed a law that would extend the state Sales Tax to all food purchases. Very quickly a huge number of signatures on an initiative were gathered and confirmed. That initiative was added to the next general election and voted down with a very high percentage.



So - do what you want, voters still have power to override legislative actions.



- Rita

When the legislature approved the excise tax on capital gains they added an “Emergency clause” that short circuits the citizens ability to vote on the tax.

Seattle Times editorial: “And it perpetuates the Legislature’s troubling misuse of emergency clauses to thwart potential voter challenges.”

 

[Happyras]

When the legislature approved the excise tax on capital gains they added an “Emergency clause” that short circuits the citizens ability to vote on the tax.

Seattle Times editorial: “And it perpetuates the Legislature’s troubling misuse of emergency clauses to thwart potential voter challenges.”

AND there is nothing we can do except import folks from Texas and turn around this corrupt gummerment....we need to get this state back to its core intents of its laws.

 

[Canoeboy]

An earlier post brought Virginia’s personal property tax (PPT) on vehicles into the debate which kind of implied that funds collected were directed to roads. However, that tax is a local (county/city) tax collected to fund local government (schools, etc.). Moving to Virginia a few years ago from a much higher tax state I was initially taken aback when we were hit by the PPT on vehicles. But then I realized my former state had a progressive fee based on vehicle value collected during vehicle registration which was higher than the PPT collected in Virginia. Couple that with much lower state income tax and property taxes that are 1/3rd on the former state (corrected for house value) and I feel real good about the move. Much shorter and milder winters too!

Getting back to Virginia’s approach to addressing the issue of declining road tax receipts, the state appears to have a fair and equitable approach. Basically vehicles with MPG over 25 pay a sliding scale surcharge at registration. It is based on an average of 11,500 miles per year and intends to recoup something like 80% of the “lost” fuel tax. More efficient vehicles pay more, EV’s the most. A new voluntary program was started last year where users may opt to install a device where they pay per mile, capped at 11,500 miles. At this time there is no differentiation between in-state and out-of-state miles. However, the installed device has an option for GPS tracking which could enable this if the legislature chose to allow. Personally, I would continue the fee during out of state usage as roadways somewhere are still being used. More details on Virginia’s approach at: https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/vehicles/#highwayuse_fee.asp

I see this as a good approach as we continue to transition to vehicles that use less or no traditional road fuels. Someone has to fund the roads and the approach is tied to things (road fuel, vehicles) that are associated with road use. The surcharge on more efficient vehicles is not a real deterrent to EV adoption as one would still be paying less overall.

 

[CaptTom]

...Someone has to fund the roads and the approach is tied to things (road fuel, vehicles) that are associated with road use.

There are very few things in our economy which aren't associated with road use.


Transportation benefits everyone. It should be supported with general funds.

 

[Koolau]

There are very few things in our economy which aren't associated with road use.


Transportation benefits everyone. It should be supported with general funds.

That is certainly a valid viewpoint. And, unfortunately, in some taxing regions, the gas tax goes the other way. This site shows how many states divert gas taxes to other priorities (in some case, tangential to transportation - but not directly to roads/bridges/motoring-infrastructure.) YMMV

https://reason.org/policy-brief/how-much-gas-tax-money-states-divert-away-from-roads/

 

[Old Microbiologist]

It is a problem with funding road construction and repairs is all based on fuel taxes. I have always thought this was unfair and yet another subtle tax hidden in a price. Roads should be funded by the state out of the state budgets using the revenue (normally state income taxes). Federal roads should come out of the federal budget. But this is not how it works. EVs use electricity from many different sources. Some are taxed (yet another subtle tax) to cover maintenance and construction of the electrical infrastructure which is all private.

Now that EVs are slowly moving to a majority and don't use fuel so don't pay road tax. these finds have to be found somewhere. There are no free rides but this is what has been happening. I forget wat percentage of fuel is taxes but I recall it is huge. Now this will become fairer assuming they reduce that part of fuel that covers road repairs etc. My guess is they will keep the same taxes plus tax you extra using a pay by mile. A better solution IMHO is a separate annual fee for EV's which if it were fair would be based on how many miles driven. The UK is proposing an annual fee for all EVs using a single fee based on battery size.

I live in Hungary and here we pay a "matrica" or toll system which is a usage fee for the roads and is time based as well as type of vehicle. For autos, there are two types, county roads, and highways. The latter is roughly $15 for 10 days. You can buy them also by the month or by the year and these are less expensive. Generally, I use the highways infrequently so buy them as needed and this is done online so easy to do. There are cameras all over the place scanning license plates and issuing tickets which are crazy expensive in the $250 range per violation. So far, no one here is discussing separate road taxes because of EVs.

 

[Koolau]

I live in Hungary and here we pay a "matrica" or toll system which is a usage fee for the roads and is time based as well as type of vehicle. For autos, there are two types, county roads, and highways. The latter is roughly $15 for 10 days. You can buy them also by the month or by the year and these are less expensive. Generally, I use the highways infrequently so buy them as needed and this is done online so easy to do. There are cameras all over the place scanning license plates and issuing tickets which are crazy expensive in the $250 range per violation. So far, no one here is discussing separate road taxes because of EVs.

That seems way over complicated. I know folks who wouldn't be able to drive under such a system because they don't own a computer or smart phone. What a pain! Of course, I'm sure Hungary looks at our "system" and says "what a pain!"

 

[Old Microbiologist]

Actually, it is the norm in Europe with the exception of Italy which still uses toll booths. Italy is also the most expensive country in Europe to drive in but nothing like driving from DC to NYC and the seemingly never-ending tolls on I-95. The last time I drove it was over $75 (nearly 20 years ago). My favorite is the $15 to cross the Verazano Bridge which looks like it is going to collapse any minute. So, obviously, no money is going from that bridge toll into maintenance. I suspect it is the same everywhere and it is just another way to pump money into the state's coffers and allows them to keep pushing the noodle down the road for actual maintenance. This is despite the trillions from Congress that were supposed to repair all these things almost none was accomplished. At least in Europe, the roads are beautifully maintained so I believe the money is being spent appropriately.

I would add the same problem is happening with regard to solar panels and electrical infrastructure. The BIG problem in the US is the lines are all private yet the energy corporations do the very minimum to maintain the infrastructure, focused entirely on maximizing profits. In Europe all the infrastructure is public so maintained out of the state budget. Sometimes it is augmented with local funding. The poor guys that have a solar system tied to the grid will get hammered eventually. So, it really is an all-or-nothing soon in the US for solar power. At least here they don't even discuss buying back excess energy. Here you have to install a smart meter at your own expense (plus there is no government subsidy at the moment for solar panels anyway) at a cost of roughly $2k. Then they buy the excess at 10 percent so really not worth the expense. Here subsidies go towards home insulation and solar hot water heaters but not solar panels. This will change as Hungary is building one of the world's largest solar panel factories (Chinese of course) so perhaps we can get something. We probably won't qualify anyway as non-citizens here on permanent visas. Our EV also didn't qualify anywhere for any subsidies. The US won't credit those of us living overseas and Hungary won't credit any cars costing more than roughly $40k (our Mercedes EQS was $175k).

Speaking of taxes, Hungary has a fixed income tax of 16% and you don't file anything ever. It is just taken out of your payroll. The medical and retirement are separate though but relatively inexpensive at around $25 a month. We pay no property tax per see although we have a city property tax of roughly $200 a year which goes to flowers and gardens so worth it. We also have a bit nicer streets and recently new bike trails were built (around 500km of them) plus free internet around the city. This all comes from that comparatively tiny city property tax. There is a 27% sales tax (VAT) though and a 35% import tax (including the VAT) on goods from outside the EU. Even so, prices are much better than in the US for most things. Also, to increase the birth rate new mothers pay no income tax for 5 years. If you have 3 children you pay no income tax for the rest of your life. New mothers also get 3 years of paid maternity leave. There are other benefits as well as a subsidy on new home sales if you have 2 children. Stuff like that.

 

[Koolau]

Actually, it is the norm in Europe with the exception of Italy which still uses toll booths. Italy is also the most expensive country in Europe to drive in but nothing like driving from DC to NYC and the seemingly never-ending tolls on I-95. The last time I drove it was over $75 (nearly 20 years ago). My favorite is the $15 to cross the Verazano Bridge which looks like it is going to collapse any minute. So, obviously, no money is going from that bridge toll into maintenance. I suspect it is the same everywhere and it is just another way to pump money into the state's coffers and allows them to keep pushing the noodle down the road for actual maintenance. This is despite the trillions from Congress that were supposed to repair all these things almost none was accomplished. At least in Europe, the roads are beautifully maintained so I believe the money is being spent appropriately.

I would add the same problem is happening with regard to solar panels and electrical infrastructure. The BIG problem in the US is the lines are all private yet the energy corporations do the very minimum to maintain the infrastructure, focused entirely on maximizing profits. In Europe all the infrastructure is public so maintained out of the state budget. Sometimes it is augmented with local funding. The poor guys that have a solar system tied to the grid will get hammered eventually. So, it really is an all-or-nothing soon in the US for solar power. At least here they don't even discuss buying back excess energy. Here you have to install a smart meter at your own expense (plus there is no government subsidy at the moment for solar panels anyway) at a cost of roughly $2k. Then they buy the excess at 10 percent so really not worth the expense. Here subsidies go towards home insulation and solar hot water heaters but not solar panels. This will change as Hungary is building one of the world's largest solar panel factories (Chinese of course) so perhaps we can get something. We probably won't qualify anyway as non-citizens here on permanent visas. Our EV also didn't qualify anywhere for any subsidies. The US won't credit those of us living overseas and Hungary won't credit any cars costing more than roughly $40k (our Mercedes EQS was $175k).

Speaking of taxes, Hungary has a fixed income tax of 16% and you don't file anything ever. It is just taken out of your payroll. The medical and retirement are separate though but relatively inexpensive at around $25 a month. We pay no property tax per see although we have a city property tax of roughly $200 a year which goes to flowers and gardens so worth it. We also have a bit nicer streets and recently new bike trails were built (around 500km of them) plus free internet around the city. This all comes from that comparatively tiny city property tax. There is a 27% sales tax (VAT) though and a 35% import tax (including the VAT) on goods from outside the EU. Even so, prices are much better than in the US for most things. Also, to increase the birth rate new mothers pay no income tax for 5 years. If you have 3 children you pay no income tax for the rest of your life. New mothers also get 3 years of paid maternity leave. There are other benefits as well as a subsidy on new home sales if you have 2 children. Stuff like that.

Apparently, it is w*rking for you. I'm sure we all adjust to the taxing system we live with. I always wondered if relatively high VAT taxes suppressed consumerism (that could be good or bad depending upon your viewpoint, I guess.) I've never been a fan of subsidies and lean more toward use taxes but YMMV.