Water Heater Advice Needed

braumeister said:
I don't have the answer (my electric model is 11 years old), but I would just like to publicly thank you for having the wit to call it a water heater instead of a hot water heater. :flowers:

[one of my pet peeves] :mad:
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I got a stern talking to by someone the other day for saying hot water heater.
Was that you?
 
Rebates may be available

We recently replaced our gas water heater and discovered that our gas company offered a $200 rebate for a high efficiency model. The rebate made the net cost pretty much equal to the basic less-efficient model.

When we bought our house, the inspector said the heater was nearing the end of its useful life, so we didn't wait for it to go bust. The water heater was 25 about years old.
 
steelhead said:
We recently replaced our gas water heater and discovered that our gas company offered a $200 rebate for a high efficiency model. The rebate made the net cost pretty much equal to the basic less-efficient model. ...
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Looks like our gas company will provide a $100 rebate, but must be contractor installed. I was planning DIY, so that would end up negative. I'd need to spend ~ $114 more to get that higher eff% one (using the current $100 MIR, $214 if that expires). Looks like the Fed tax credit is 10%, but I'm not sure what it takes to qualify.

At any rate, the higher eff% ones are more complex. I like simple. The $399 one is just like my old reliable one - standing pilot. But still more eff% than the old, to the tune of ~ $30/year. Going to the energy star model, additional savings is ~ another $17/year.

Kenmore #'s I'm looking at:

Model#**33165 *Model#**33702

Plus, the $395 33165 is a short design - I plan to put it up on a cement block base. I've seen some safety videos that show that keeping it off the floor adds some safety against spilled flammables or dense gasses being ignited. That would be easy for me to do with the shorty.


-ERD50
 
I turned up the thermostat a bit and that has produced hotter water. :D

I also attempted to take out an element to see the condition of the water heater. The screws/bolts are stuck and I feared damaging the heater if I put to much force on them. That would give me exactly what I am trying to avoid - having to replace the water heater under urgent conditions at a high price. :(

I think I will take a few weeks and shop around for a descent replacement. ;)

I did look at the heat pump water heaters. WOW! The cheapest is $1200 and they easily go over $2000. :eek: Plus installation. The only way to justify that price would be to get myself a family of eight or more people who each love to shower and do a load of laundry every day. That would mean the end of ER and working until I was 76. Not so good. :rolleyes:
 
Chuckanut said:
I did look at the heat pump water heaters. WOW! The cheapest is $1200 and they easily go over $2000. :eek: Plus installation. The only way to justify that price would be to get myself a family of eight or more people who each love to shower and do a load of laundry every day. That would mean the end of ER and working until I was 76. Not so good. :rolleyes:
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Crazy isn't it? When you factor in the additional cost and complexity of these energy saving devices, appliances, etc., I just don't see where the overall savings come from. Plain Jane electric water heaters are about as simple a device as you can get. There is not much to go wrong, and if something does, they are simple to repair.
 
Bob Adams said:
Crazy isn't it? When you factor in the additional cost and complexity of these energy saving devices, appliances, etc., I just don't see where the overall savings come from. Plain Jane electric water heaters are about as simple a device as you can get. There is not much to go wrong, and if something does, they are simple to repair.
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I don't like the complexity of the whole house on demand systems, or these heat pumps sitting on top of the tank devices. Just more stuff you can't repair or even manage yourself. More expensive service calls. I really think some of the service companies love them because of this.

My 16 year old gas fired started leaking a bit last month and replaced it with another gas fire. It is in a garage, so I've been freaking over code issues (raising it on a platform to avoid gas fume ignition). I barely have enough head room, and the new water heaters are taller.

Turns out they changed the general code (and my municipality accepted the change) that you can put a water heater down on the ground in a garage if it has all these ignition suppression features. Those features a simple too, just a bunch of screens and baffles. Nothing complicated. So, I was good to go for another water heater. House is 32 years old and is just starting on its 3rd heater.

I might think differently if my heater were in an attic (yeah, they allow that here). A "spray leak" causes mayhem. I've had friends with a lot of damage with those installations. They had a drain pan and everything, but the leak was small and caused a spray beyond the pan.
 
Bob Adams said:
Crazy isn't it? When you factor in the additional cost and complexity of these energy saving devices, appliances, etc., I just don't see where the overall savings come from. Plain Jane electric water heaters are about as simple a device as you can get. There is not much to go wrong, and if something does, they are simple to repair.
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Yes, but they play them up on the home shows as some great new advance. I sure hope those units are made so that the tank can be replaced, and the heat pump re-used. If the heat pump is built to last (like my 20+ YO basement refridge, and garage freezer) at least the WH replacement costs would be lower. But since electric WHs are so simple, I guess it would not really save anything over a new electric WH. There would be extra labor to swap the heat pump.

Hmmm, so how 'green' are these if you end up building, and then throwing away an entire compressor/heat-pump when the tank goes out ( often just 10 years depending on your water)?

I doubt there is any practical way to use the cold side of the heat pump. That would be site specific, and tough to make as a generic unit. You could cool a fridge, use it as a dehumidifier, or to cool a room. But too much variability in all those to do much.

And of course, these are not used if you have NG available. That is easier/cheaper than either.

-ERD50
 
Bob Adams said:
Crazy isn't it? When you factor in the additional cost and complexity of these energy saving devices, appliances, etc., I just don't see where the overall savings come from. Plain Jane electric water heaters are about as simple a device as you can get. There is not much to go wrong, and if something does, they are simple to repair.
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Plain Jane is my philosophy on about all appliance purchases. When I purchased my water heater last month, I compared it to the efficient models and rebates for purchasing. No savings at all, and potential savings in energy had such as long payback period, it wasn't worth my money to consider those options.
 
Dear Old Dad replaced his electric water heater a couple of years ago. It was original to the house, installed in 1973, making it between 35-40 years old. He had to replace an element or two along the way but never had much trouble with it until it stopped heating one day, and he never drained it. He's on well water and has a water softener, which might have had something to do with it.

Your mileage will definitely vary!
 
vince said:
Just a thought....One of the largest wastes of energy is creating hot water, then adding a bunch of cold water to use it. The other point to keep in mind is the danger of scalding a child.
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I don't want to drift too far from OP's original post but this is an excellent point. I actually had an elderly relation die after being scalded in the shower and spending weeks in the hospital. Her husband was too bull headed to turn down the water temp on the heater. Thermostatic valves could have prevented it but he was saving money by not getting them.
 
Just another thought Chuck, based on my past experience with an old electric water heater. Now, unless someone turned down your water heater before you noticed the change, you may just be masking the problem. I did that too before I dug into my lime caked water heater. It did indeed warm the water up, but the amount of warm water available still drew down quickly because of element issue. Do you notice a decreased overall amount of warm water before it gets cooler?
 
JoeWras said:
I might think differently if my heater were in an attic (yeah, they allow that here). A "spray leak" causes mayhem. I've had friends with a lot of damage with those installations. They had a drain pan and everything, but the leak was small and caused a spray beyond the pan.
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Oh, the joys of an attic water heater replacement...in a two story house...with a flimsy pull-down folding stair for access...with every tank inlet and outlet pipe plumbed with soldered copper joints...on a humid 85 degree day.

I thought about replacing my 50-gallon gas unit a couple of months ago. It's a 14 y.o. builder grade unit, and this thread had reminded it was time. I included it on a list of repairman stuff to be scheduled when I take a couple of weeks off w*rk over the holidays.

I didn't climb up to take a look at my tank, however, which I now regret.

Thursday night, DD leaned over the rail at the top of the stairs and called down with six words no one ever likes to hear: "Do you hear a dripping sound?"

Water was dripping from one, then two spots in the second floor ceiling. Investigation showed water was slowing trickling out from screw and connection points at various spots on the outer tank shell. Dear water heater was giving out. The catch pan underneath was full to overflowing, its outlet clogged with some insulation and wood debris the builder had graciously left behind. I pulled the crud out of the drain hole and shut off the gas and water supply to the tank. No shower for DW, no joy for Harry.

Friday: call in to w*rk, research heaters, measure, decide I don't want to try sweating copper pipe for the first time, shop, haul home a heater, drain the tank via a hose stuck out the second floor window, saw the copper fittings loose, call in a favor for BIL to help on Saturday. No shower for DW, no joy for Harry.

Saturday: more measuring, more research, another shopping trip (two stores). My fancy new 170-pound, 12-year tank measures 22" in diameter, about 1-1/2 inches more than the deceased tank. The widest part of the attic stair opening is 24", but for only about 18 inches horizontally before hardware makes it narrower. The tank is just over five feet tall, and the distance from the top edge of the stair opening to the rafters is less than six feet. Over where the tank goes, the gas supply pipe extends 6 inches vertically from the floor at a spot directly in front of the pan, requiring a lift of the tank up and over without enough headroom to keep it vertical.

New words I have learned today:
Barrel Hitch
How to Tie a Barrel Hitch - wikiHow
barrelsling8.gif


Gun tackle:
14037_21_2.jpg


The new tank is in place after BIL, a neighborhood kid and I spent two hours wresting with our 170-pound adversary. I'm taking a break right now before I start in on making the new connections.

Fortunately, my vocabalary proved adequate for the wresting part. I've said it before: there is no doubt that plumbing has the highest cuss-words-per-hour rate of any home repair category.
 
Epic fail for the twist-on "gator" connectors the #@%@ guy at Lowe's sold me. I guess I'll learn how to sweat copper pipe after all. On a Sunday morning. %$@*!

So now we come to the end of day 3 of no shower for DW, no joy for Harry.

Getting late. Now it's time to head to BIL's house for showers.
 
DW says this is my motto:

"Have I told you lately how much I hate $#%! plumbing!"

Hope the rest of your Sunday goes well Harry. You have my deepest sympathies.
 
Htown Harry said:
Fortunately, my vocabalary proved adequate for the wresting part. I've said it before: there is no doubt that plumbing has the highest cuss-words-per-hour rate of any home repair category.
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A favorite quote from Mark Twain:
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
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Htown Harry said:
Epic fail for the twist-on "gator" connectors the #@%@ guy at Lowe's sold me. I guess I'll learn how to sweat copper pipe after all. On a Sunday morning. %$@*!
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Dang, those Gator (or Sharkbite) connectors have been working great for me. Before trying to sweat copper, I'd give these another try--make sure the ends of the pipes are cut evenly and there are no burs, and that the pipe is clean, smooth, clean, and clean (which you'll have to do anyway if you eventually have to solder them). Tip, If you do have to sweat the pipes, see if you can find the type of fittings (made by Watts, maybe others) that have the solder already inside them (located inside a small recess located around the entire mating area). I've never had a failure with one of these, whereas I have about an 80% success rate with regular fittings.
If you haven't done it before, practice somewhere convenient on some extra pipe and fittings. Get the pipes and fittings clean (did I say that already?:)), use enough flux, get everything very hot, and be sure not to move the fittings until the solder is hard.

After you get all done, buy a water alarm from Lowes or HD and set it up to tell you if that overflow pan gets filled again. And if you have a pan under an AC evaporator coil up in that attic, definitely put another alarm in there while you are already in the attic. Run the wires to the attic door and put the actual units there so you can easily change the batteries. The exit tubes from these pans have a bad habit of getting clogged up (with algae, etc in the case of the AC coils) and getting an alarm early can save you from replacing a lot of ceiling, etc.

Thanks for the barrel hitch drawing, I've never heard of that. It looks handy.

Good luck!
 
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samclem said:
A favorite quote from Mark Twain:


After you get all done, buy a water alarm from Lowes or HD and set it up to tell you if that overflow pan gets filled again. And if you have a pan under an AC evaporator coil up in that attic, definitely put another alarm in there while you are already in the attic. Run the wires to the attic door and put the actual units there so you can easily change the batteries. The exit tubes from these pans have a bad habit of getting clogged up (with algae, etc in the case of the AC coils) and getting an alarm early can save you from replacing a lot of ceiling, etc.



Good luck!
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When I had the HVAC at my house updated they put float switches in the drain pan under the coil. If the pan reaches a level, then the switch cuts the unit off, which is sure to get ones attention.

This also solves the problem if no one is home and the pan fills up.
 
It's 6 pm on Sunday and I'm done. The water and gas are staying in the pipes, the burner has a nice blue flame. DW should be happy taking her evening shower soon.

REWahoo said:
Sweating copper pipe isn't too difficult. Be sure to get all the water out first - you can use some bread to do that.
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Thanks, REW. The bread trick turned out to be necessity. Both the main water supply to the house and the cold water pipe into the water heater have valves that no longer close 100%. By opening several faucets in the house and stuffing some bread into the cold water inlet pipe downstream of the valve, I was able to hold back the water from where the joint needed to be soldered.

I used whole grain wheat.:)

ShokWaveRider said:
Any reason you did not replace it with a tank less? I did.
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Go ahead, rub it in...

samclem said:
If you haven't done it before, practice somewhere convenient on some extra pipe and fittings. Get the pipes and fittings clean (did I say that already?:)), use enough flux, get everything very hot, and be sure not to move the fittings until the solder is hard.

After you get all done, buy a water alarm from Lowes or HD and set it up to tell you if that overflow pan gets filled again. And if you have a pan under an AC evaporator coil up in that attic, definitely put another alarm in there while you are already in the attic.
Click to expand...

All good tips Samclem, but practicing and using fittings that work the first time are contrary to my standard plumbing procedures. ;)

I did find a few YouTube soldering videos that were very helpful. The two joints I soldered are working just fine. The threaded fittings, on the other hand, were a pain. There were several false completions.

The inventor of Teflon tape should be punished - was the world really having big issues with smearing some paste on the threads and wiping the excess on a rag?

Water alarms are definitely on my list, particularly since my I'm effectively self-insured for water leaks thanks to terms of the standard Texas homeowners insurance policy.

Final tally: about three days lost, about $750 paid (including $100 in tools and gadgets that I can use again.) And I get to post in the "repairs you are proud of" thread. :dance:
 
My parents bought a house in 1967. When I sold the house in 1996 the water heater was still working just fine. It's only in the last 10 years or so that I have been told water heaters only lasted about 15 years. I had to replace the heater in the house I own now and the service man figured it was about 25 years old.
 
ShokWaveRider said:
Any reason you did not replace it with a tank less? I did.
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Htown Harry said:
Go ahead, rub it in...
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There are lots of reasons to not replace it with a tank less.

You might need to upgrade the gas/electric feed to the unit.

You might need to upgrade the exhaust.

Some people have issues with them - trying to run a trickle of warm water when rinsing dishes are something like that, can cause the unit to not trigger and you only get cold water.

They are generally more expensive than a tank unit.

They are probably less reliable (don't have #'s on this, but they are more complex, so it stands to reason).

What's the payback? It doesn't cost much to keep hot water hot, the expense comes in getting it hot in the first place - and that's the same tank or tank-less.

Some people seem to be happy with them, but I don;t think it's cut and dried.

-ERD50
 
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