would this bother you?

[dex]

Since God is all powerful and all knowing, could He create an argument so unfathomable that not even the most intelligent of His creations can understand it?

Isn't this similar to the George Carlin question "If God is all powerful; can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?"

 

[justin]

Isn't this similar to the George Carlin question "If God is all powerful; can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?"

Pretty much. I don't think George Carlin is the original source of the inquiry into the omnipotence paradox though.

 

[donheff]

Lets take this all the way back to the beginning and try it from a slightly different perspective

Yesterday I attended a work lunch. The CEO was present. After our entrees arrived, someone suggested the food be blessed. The CEO then offerred a prayer.

I am the boss and I am an atheist. I have never expressed my views to others and have not experienced any problems on the job. But I suspect that my views would not be well received by top management (after all, everyone says an atheist couldn't get elected to dog catcher in America). Maybe I am over sensitive but maybe not.

Now comes the request for a blessing of the food at our office luncheon. I would probably try to handle that by saying something like, "Sure, lets everyone observe a moment of silence," or some other vague reference. But I would definitely feel awkward and, since I didn't actually offer a blessing, many observers would probably make accurate assessments of the nature of my beliefs. If it was a regular practice to offer blessings I would have to be a hypocrite and participate or I would have to explicitly state that I was uncomfortable with the practice and decline to engage. As for me -- I would not hide me beliefs in these circumstances but in many organizations I would be concerned that they would be (unfairly) held against me.

That situation is fine if you choose to work at a faith based organization but pretty obnoxious in a public company.

 

[ChrisC]

You definately should take a leadership role on the diversity committee. And don't be afraid to express your views. I think they will be welcomed. Let us know how it turns out.
God Bless
Good Luck

I'm not afraid to stand out in the open for my views. I wouldn't pen an anonymous email to my company if I believed I was wronged, as you suggested here.

.

Here is a suggestion - get a Yahoo email account and email the head of the Human Resourses dept with your concern. Tell him you do not feel comfortable giving your name or anyway for them to identify you.

Thanks for the blessing.

 

[CuppaJoe]

.... a nondemoninational prayer, which does not profess any particular faith -- except the belief in something greater than ourselves -- is only upsetting to an Atheist. So, the Atheist should not be forced to participate in the group prayer -- it's against his religion but should his right to be left alone trump everyone else's.

Huh? As a non-card-carrying atheist (I would not capitalize it), this entire statement rings false! Against what religion? A simple definition of atheist is one who believes neither in god nor an afterlife. Perhaps I'm a low level inept atheist as it does not disturb me to think there are things out there greater than myself.

 

[ChrisC]

Lets take this all the way back to the beginning and try it from a slightly different perspective


I am the boss and I am an atheist. I have never expressed my views to others and have not experienced any problems on the job. But I suspect that my views would not be well received by top management (after all, everyone says an atheist couldn't get elected to dog catcher in America). Maybe I am over sensitive but maybe not.

Now comes the request for a blessing of the food at our office luncheon.

Well, I'm the boss and the atheist. And here's what I would do because I believe in sticking up for my rights: "I'm uncomfortable with giving this blessing as I'm an atheist and it's against my belief to acknowledge the existence of God. I know that this is not a view shared by many but this is my belief. I hope you will respect my views. So, if someone else wants to give this blessing that would be fine with me. In the future, if blessings are to be given, I won't be present for them."

Or I'm the atheist co-worker who hears about the blessing: I simply excuse myself and go to the restroom or I say the blessing makes me uncomfortable and leave the area.

In these cases, I have been faithful to my principles and yet I have permitted others to be faithful to their principles as well! And if my employer didn't respect my principles here, I'd take appropriate action or find another job. Oh, and those same people used to say that a Catholic could never be elected President in this country let alone a Black Man or Woman. And yes, you're being ultra-sensitive.

 

[Nords]

Wow, way to go Brewer.

I think he's letting you know that he's read enough of your posts to deem you worthy of addition to his "Ignore Poster" list.

While I agree that the original scenario (as proposed over 150 posts ago) is culturally appropriate, I don't care for your methods of discussing the issue. Your repeated pejoratives and condescending comments to the other posters give the impression that you can't strengthen your arguments on their merits and feel entitled to resort to personal attacks.

You have a nice life now.

 

[CuppaJoe]

You have a nice life now.

One of my favorite w**k stories involved a Christian! I was happily leaving a job (permanently) for a few months R&R. He said, "Good buy, have a nice life and since its Good Friday, have a nice afterlife."

 

[Nords]

... and since its Good Friday, have a nice afterlife."

Was he suggesting that you should also be crucified, drop dead, and pray for resurrection?!?

 

[dex]

I think it was the great thinker Anonymous who wrote that a society is judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable.

It is great that so many would speak up against the blessing of the food. However there are many who would not do so out of fear. And I would guess there are many more who would not than would.

I do not believe an employee should have to think of a way to work around the situation. Many might not be able to think up a solution that would not make them feel outside of the group.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

You don't object, I suppose, to the day off you undoubtedly receive on the 25th of December, or that the New York Stock Exchange is closed on Good Friday -- the Muslims and Jews are probably wondering when on earth will the entire workforce be given a holiday at your company for Yom Kippur or the begining of Rammadan. And the Wiccan wants to know why isn't Earth Day a national holiday. And your office birthday parties are really annoying to the Jehovah Witnesses in your office -- why don't you just do away with them? Yeah, I know you'll all say these are part of our culture and the religious meaning is secondary, like Thanksgiving; yada yada yada!

is there a difference between what is right and what is accepted?

that most all of the u.s.a. gets a day off for mass for christ only makes the practice accepted; it doesn't make it right. now that i'm retired, i would argue that accepted practice is wrong. the stores are closed and for two days prior, the supermarket is a mess. if anything, now it seems just an inconvenience. though one thing i love of xmas morning is that it is the only day of the year i can safely bike on federal highway. not that there's anything particularly scenic about the ride but it is a nice annual change of pace. i have no idea what you are all doing then but you're not trying to run me down, so i'm happy.

just because a cultural event is accepted, does that make it right? public lynchings were at one time accepted, but were they ever right?

how interesting that you can take something which might be accepted, but which might not be right, and use that as argument against something which might be right but not accepted.

 

[AltaRed]

I remember a few years ago when working in Texas. It was Good Friday and a group of workmates were discussing plans for "Sunday". I remember walking into the room during the discussion and a manager asked me what special plans I had for Sunday.

Me: Heck, I don't know yet. What is special about Sunday
He: It is a religious holiday!!
Me: Oh yeah, I guess I forgot... Has something to do with the Christian faith, right?
Them: Stunned silence

 

[ChrisC]

is there a difference between what is right and what is accepted?

that most all of the u.s.a. gets a day off for mass for christ only makes the practice accepted; it doesn't make it right. now that i'm retired, i would argue that accepted practice is wrong. the stores are closed and for two days prior, the supermarket is a mess. if anything, now it seems just an inconvenience. though one thing i love of xmas morning is that it is the only day of the year i can safely bike on federal highway. not that there's anything particularly scenic about the ride but it is a nice annual change of pace. i have no idea what you are all doing then but you're not trying to run me down, so i'm happy.

just because a cultural event is accepted, does that make it right? public lynchings were at one time accepted, but were they ever right?

how interesting that you can take something which might be accepted, but which might not be right, and use that as argument against something which might be right but not accepted.

I would respond to your post but I'm afraid in zeal to respond I might over-step the bounds of discourse and engage in condescending or ad homenim banter. I freely admit that I have characterized some views or examples in this thread as "silly" or "intolerant" and have frequently taken an unwarranted dig against people -- I apologize for that -- it was childish and I know better.

I won't post anymore here because, quite frankly, I don't feel the last moderator who weighed in this thread has moderated the course of the thread, even-handedly. That's my feeling. In fact, this is my last post from this Forum.

 

[perinova]

That's a funny accomodation; it's actually no accomdation -- and if you can't figure that one out, so help you God. And regarding the intolerance issue, if you can't figure that one out too, I'm afraid it's pointless to debate; it's been spelled out so many times already. Maybe I'll spell it out again below.

You just don't get it again; a nondemoninational prayer, which does not profess any particular faith -- except the belief in something greater than ourselves -- is only upsetting to an Atheist. So, the Atheist should not be forced to participate in the group prayer -- it's against his religion but should his right to be left alone trump everyone else's. If you ask Bosco, his answer is yes. If you believe that Bosco's view trumps everyone else's, then it seems to me that you're pretty much intolerant of the views of others. It's his way or the highway, isn't it? If the group forced him to participate in the group prayer, then the group would be intolerant of his views. Is that very difficult to understand.

ChrisC
You seem to intentionally ignore that it is fundamental right not to have anyone impose their religious beliefs on others. It seems to me that an open prayer at work is an imposition of the beliefs of the majority onto a minority. I am sure that you also know that this country doesn't have a majority rule and that minorities rights are protected n ot only tolerated. In this case Atheists are clearly a minority that deserve to be protected as other minority groups do.

I would be very bothered by an open prayer at work. Would I say something? No - Of course; since it migh (only might) mean my career their would be in jeopardy. Since the boss is insensitive to this aspect makes you think that the job would also be in jeopardy doesn't it?

There is a BIG difference between individual prayer (clearly protected) and a communal organized open prayer at work (crearly prohibited). The former doesn' t trump the right of anybody; the latter trumps the right of atheists, freethinkers, and non-christians. The atheist's right not to be imposed religious beliefs and doesn't trump the rights of others as you incorrectly state.

By the same token the removal of " In God We Trust" on coins doesn't trump the right of the theists. The addition of "In God We Don't Trust" would be though. Can you imagine how offensive it would be to most theists?

How offensive the boss would have been if he would profess out loud that he is not a believer? If a bunch of atheist would tell during the prayer that they are not believer?

In conclusion don't you think that open organized prayers are best left in the places of worship or other places where everyone has the same beliefs? Not at work, not at school, not in government, not in sport. And No it doesn't prevent anyone to pray whenever they wish!!!!

 

[Fireup2020]

It has a compulsory element when you are expected (from a job perspective) to be at a meeting and are presented with the unwelcomed scenario.

I often feel the unwelcomed scenario tends to be the actual topic of the meeting itself - much more so than any version of a "prayer"

Gathering us all together to listen to someone tell us things that do not necessarily pertain to us is very offensive to me! Wasting my tax dollars, and my time!

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

No Rich, it's your view that it's compulsory. You and others have read far too much into the original scenario. You infer that if you walk out the lunch when the CEO says grace that you're career is doomed at the company -- now where is that found in the post. Very polemical, isn't it? So you say it's compulsory. I'm not ignoring your arguments -- I just don't agree with them.

Anyone remember the hysterical Martin Short character, Nathan Thurm

"I knew that. What makes you think I didn't know that? I knew that."

 

[Texas Proud]

I would respond to your post but I'm afraid in zeal to respond I might over-step the bounds of discourse and engage in condescending or ad homenim banter. I freely admit that I have characterized some views or examples in this thread as "silly" or "intolerant" and have frequently taken an unwarranted dig against people -- I apologize for that -- it was childish and I know better.

I won't post anymore here because, quite frankly, I don't feel the last moderator who weighed in this thread has moderated the course of the thread, even-handedly. That's my feeling. In fact, this is my last post from this Forum.

I don't see you post as attacking me personally... but I do find it funny that saying a prayer is 'tolerant', but not saying a prayer is 'intolerant'...

And I still don't know if you had answered the specific question of if the boss had said a grace to the devil would that be 'tolerant'?

We will always disagree on this, but I think the law is more on my side than yours if it ever went to a trial..

Sorry to see you go... but it is your decision.

 

[CuppaJoe]

Was he suggesting that you should also be crucified, drop dead, and pray for resurrection?!?

Doubt it, but that's even funnier.

 

[Joss]

Sorry. I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be. I never have understood this.

As I have said several times in this thread, I'm not a Christian. But I live among many folks that are, and am present on many occasions where a meal is blessed. I go to funerals in churches - people pray there. I go to weddings in churches - people pray there. Was I imposed on, religiously?

Do some of you avoid these occasions like vampires avoid daylight? And if you don't, how is being present when someone blesses a meal intolerable when sitting through a church wedding is not? I'm having trouble with that.

People have been praying around me all my life - yet I've never felt harmed, intimidated or threatened by this. It's just never occured to me to become indignant, or to attempt to bring a social/religious occasion to a halt and insist that everyone has to be like me.

What have I missed in nearly 60 year of un-enlightenment? I always pictured atheists as sort of more resiliant than this namby-pamby stuff. Instead, the image I get now is of the Dorothy's Wicked Witch: "I'm meeellllttting. I'mmmmm meeeeeeelllllltiing."

Oops sorry. I guess little Billy got a dab of prayer on ya there, Hotshot. Here... wipe it off with this. Well damn! Your old arm just pulled right off.

 

[brewer12345]

Sorry. I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be. I never have understood this.

Its not the "hearing," its the implication that you must participate and go along with someone else's religious beliefs unless you want to imperil your career.

 

[REWahoo]

I won't post anymore here because, quite frankly, I don't feel the last moderator who weighed in this thread has moderated the course of the thread, even-handedly.

We'll ask the CEO to say a prayer for him at the next company meeting...

 

[CuppaJoe]

Sorry. I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be. I never have understood this.

As I have said several times in this thread, I'm not a Christian. But I live among many folks that are, and am present on many occasions where a meal is blessed. I go to funerals in churches - people pray there. I go to weddings in churches - people pray there. Was I imposed on, religiously?

Do some of you avoid these occasions like vampires avoid daylight? And if you don't, how is being present when someone blesses a meal intolerable when sitting through a church wedding is not? I'm having trouble with that.

I'm with you, Joss: I recently attended a bar mitzvah. The blessing of the bread was charming and gave me a sense of reverence for others' rituals. I enjoy my Muslim friends, and was honored to sit with one at a coffee shop on the first day of Ramaden and had guess what, a cuppa joe.

Hope no one brings up the Pledge of Allegence and combines the two bugaboos, religion and politics.

 

[Joss]

Its not the "hearing," its the implication that you must participate and go along with someone else's religious beliefs unless you want to imperil your career.

Thanks Joe.

Brewer, I suppose I'll just be grateful that I've not experienced a career situation where being civil and decent to people was outweighed by "implications". Sorry about the rest of you. Better luck in your next lives.

 

[perinova]

Sorry. I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be. I never have understood this.

You have to accept the beliefs of others at face value.
You don't need to understand it to accept it. If they tell you they are bothered by it, trust them. They are!

 

[perinova]

But I live among many folks that are, and am present on many occasions where a meal is blessed. I go to funerals in churches - people pray there. I go to weddings in churches - people pray there. Was I imposed on, religiously?

Come on there. I am sure you understand the difference between praying at a denominational religious service and imposing a prayer during a secular activity such as a sports event, a school class or a work meeting.

In the former case you are a willfull participant (or observer) and you knew what you where getting into. In the latter case you have been attracted to a religious event under a false pretense, sort-of.