Are we getting soaked on shower quotes?

[euro]

When we built our house our plumber preferred that we buy our faucets and fixtures... we got what we wanted and they didn't have to spend time handholding us. Same for the tile guy, he preferred that we buy the tile, grout etc.

Did the plumber include in the story of the $100 trip charge also relay that the previous stop (customer or their shop or supplier or where they stopped for lunch) was 10 minutes away?

So what if they were 10 minutes away for this particular job? Why would you want to know? You certainly would not want to know their "sob story" if they happened to be clear across town, got into a traffic jam and spent 2 hours getting there. Or would you offer to compensate them for extra time in that case?

 

[Cobra9777]

We remodeled our master bath a few years ago. We did some of the work and hired a contractor for some. The final cost was $23K. We had several turnkey quotes in the $30-35K range.

DW and I did most of the demo. We removed the old sink, faucet, countertop, vanity, cabinet, toilet, mirror, vanity light, trim, and wall materials. The contractor demo'd the old shower, tub, floor tile, and ceiling drywall.

Then, the contractor redid some of the plumbing/electrical/insulation, installed some new can lights and vent fan, rebuilt the walk-in shower, installed a new tub, laid the floor tile, and put up new drywall. They also installed the trim kits on tub/shower and the shower glass.

We finished it from there. We primed and painted the drywall. I installed: new vanity, sink, faucet, mirror, vanity light, new toilet, trim/baseboard, towel racks, etc. I also installed an accent wall.

We hired a separate granite company to install the countertop. We got a very good deal on a quartzite remnant from their boneyard.

We purchased all materials on our own, including the tile. The contractor told us how much tile to buy of each type. They only provided construction materials, like drywall, plumbing/electrical supplies, tile adhesive, and the like.

We did our demo in 2 days. Their part was around 2 weeks. Then, our finish-out part probably took about a month. I ended up building a vanity, doing the accent wall, and installing some floating shelves. Plus, we just took our time trying to coordinate all the final fixtures and hardware.

Very happy with the end result and cost savings.

 

[2tswhite]

Almost at the end of our MBath remodel and it has been a long, long process. Signed with the contractor July 2022, took bthrm down to the studs in early August, then long expanses of a day here a day there. Glass shower walls won't be installed until mid January. But we are happy to have a working toilet closer than the other side of the house ��!! We dropped some cash on this reno, we do live in Massachusetts. The punchlist is 2 pages already.

 

[pjigar]

Watched some videos and seems like this could be something to take on yourself? Has anyone here done that?

Have you done some simple framing? Have you worked with PVC pipes? Have you laid tiles? If answer to all these questions is yes then I say you can do it. I have done three showers myself from scratch and in process of doing two more for the ADU. Working with tile is little bit tricky (especially cutting and drilling). You may have to buy some tools: diamond cutting blade for the angle grinder, diamond hollow drill bits, tile cutter, etc. Measurements has to be accurate for the shower door/frame fitment (don't forget to account for wall thickness, tile thickness and thinset thickness). There would be a lot of surprises and the Youtube videos will make it look so easy. Doing a tiled shower is a moderate to advance home improvement project. Anyone who makes you think otherwise have never done a shower or did too many of them.



I always use cement fiber board for the shower walls and water proof them with a liquid roll-on membrane. I also use Kerdi cloth and Kerdi drain for the dry-pack-mortar built shower pan.


A simpler route is to install a shower stall which will minimize tile and cement work. But it will not look as nice. Installing a shower stall is a moderate level project.

 

[JoeWras]

This is not a beginner project.

A beginner project would be to replace your lavatory sink, and do a tile backsplash. That would be a good test case. If one fails at that, then there's no way one is ready to do a tub conversion.

A sink replacement usually requires just replacing standard flexible supply lines and slip-joint drainage. Easy. The tub to shower requires permanent glue changes of the drainage, and permanent supply (in the wall) changes. A tile backsplash doesn't typically require changing out backer board. A tiled shower requires careful backer board, and if it is an enclosure, likely some drywall work around it. A full tiled shower (no pre-cast base) is very difficult as it requires careful work with the base to avoid leaks. I love to read the plumbing reddit, and there are stories on stories of failed showers. Really messy stuff when done wrong.

 

[davidfin]

I know some of this might be location specific but wow we are kinda shocked at the quotes we have gotten so far. Seems to me to be a simple replacement. Remove the current one piece 5' tub shower combo, and add some green board type drywall and add a new shower pan and 3 wall panels and perhaps glass door to make a simple walk in shower. My thinking was that it should be well under 10k....wrong. The first quote was around 14K which seemed really high. So when talking to the next company over the phone I specifically said we were shocked at a quote we received at over 10K and that I didn't want to waste anyone's time if the quote was going to be over around 10K. He replied their rate would be way lower because they were a local family owned business and low advertising cost unlike the big corps. Well their guy came out and quoted 15K!!!

So the search continues. Are these end of year prices over the top? Do I need to adjust my thinking that under 10k for simple replacement is reasonable in 2022?

Watched some videos and seems like this could be something to take on yourself? Has anyone here done that?

We renewed our master bath in 2018. Kept the vanity (repainted beautifully) and that’s about all. Demo’d the bath myself saving 100s. Cut out the one piece fiberglass shower enclosure and removed the carpet and underlayment. Hired a master tile man who built a lovely tiled new shower, first class. Installed heated towel bar, heated floor, and tile, two new under mount sinks, faucets, corian countertop. I did the easy plumbing, installed new toilet, faucets etc. hired electrician and plumber to do the important hidden stuff. All in, 22K. Portland Oregon.

 

[Global Wizzo]

Bathroom redo

We just finished a project to redo two
Bathrooms. Central FL location. About 22K with tub, tile and 6K of hardware.

Glass doors will run you 2-4K depending on thickness and hardware.

From quote to finish was 18 months. 6 months to get all material delivered. Construction alternated with travel so could have been done in less than 12 months time.

Base ifor the shower was 8K Labor with tile. You will have to reset drain and depending on your construction little or lots of effort. 6K additional for plumbing fixtures.

My costs did not include any cabinets. 1K of electrical fixtures as well

 

[roh3]

This was one of the calculations that really struck me when we got estimates done. These contractors won't let you buy your own components, they supply all. Still, knowing the cost of their components and subtracting these costs from the total estimate, the amount of labor was about $14,000. I then ask how long it will take for the job to be completed, and the sales rep, with a straight face, answers, "with two people takes about 3 days." I'm furiously calculating in my head $14,000 by 3 day @ 8 hours a day x 2 people, well, that's about $300 per hour!

You are forgetting all of the other costs to the business. First of all, you spoke to a sales rep. He/she needs to get paid. Then there’s overhead: liability insurance, vehicles and insurance, capital (tools, office), maybe benefits such as health insurance for the workers. All that adds up to the “cost of doing business” and a good business person recoups that (or soon go out of business).

I’m sorry but I have to agree with QS.
Those costs are incurred by most businesses, yet seem to be profitable at less than 1/2 that rate. While it is a somewhat skilled trade, it doesn’t require both workers to have extensive experience.
Your auto repair shop has all those items as overhead (swap sales rep for service writer), plus MANY times the equipment costs. Also diagnostic & programming subscriptions, and way more technical knowledge & training. $150/ hour is a high rate here.

Do even lawyers bill $300/hour? Honest question.

Even before Covid, a friend of mine was quoted $15.5k to have the a/c replaced in the attic of his 1000 sq/ft ranch. A couple thousand dollars of equipment.
I can’t make that math work.

 

[Acollector]

When it come to “water”, it needs to be done right and as a home inspector can show you nightmares! Even newer builds have corners cut and in 18 months early signs start to show up. You better know how to do it right if you gonna do it and a slow leak over years can do a lot of damage and your home owners insurance is not gonna do anything. With all new construction most contractors are using subpar peeps and you often get what you pay for . Good luck.

 

[JoeWras]

When it come to “water”, it needs to be done right and as a home inspector can show you nightmares! Even newer builds have corners cut and in 18 months early signs start to show up. You better know how to do it right if you gonna do it and a slow leak over years can do a lot of damage and your home owners insurance is not gonna do anything. With all new construction most contractors are using subpar peeps and you often get what you pay for . Good luck.

Spot on. All kinds of posts on the plumbing reddit of people complaining about leaks or deterioration in that 6 to 18 month period. There are some incredibly bad installers out there.

 

[pb4uski]

So what if they were 10 minutes away for this particular job? Why would you want to know? You certainly would not want to know their "sob story" if they happened to be clear across town, got into a traffic jam and spent 2 hours getting there. Or would you offer to compensate them for extra time in that case?

I wouldn't think it is fair to charge me a $100 trip charge when their last job was 10 minutes away... no.

Many businesses build it into the rate. One of my prior jobs had a code for travel time, which was not charged to clients. Client time started when we arrived at the client and travel time was implicitly built into the billing rate so it was spread out across all clients... arguably unfair to the client just down the street compared to the client across town but we'll hidden since it was built into the billing rate.

 

[427Vette]

I am curious if anyone has actually seen a trip charge line itemed on an invoice. I think it might be a folk tale. None of my contractor friends or myself ever listed it separately. It would be non stop complaining from customers if it was shown as such. We used to charge a full hour rate, $100.00 for the first half hour. Then we charged $100.00 per hour for every hour after that. Most service calls could be done in that first half hour. I am sure every contractor finds a system that works for them.

I can tell you that being a contractor looks a lot different from the outside looking in than it really is. The overhead expenses are enormous. It cost way more to be in business than one can imagine until you’ve experienced it. If all contractors were getting rich wouldn’t this board be full of plumbers, electricians, HVAC guys?

 

[roh3]

If all contractors were getting rich wouldn’t this board be full of plumbers, electricians, HVAC guys?

Soon it will be.
This is a relatively new phenomenon.

$100/hour sounds fair.
This is not what people are complaining about.

 

[skyking1]

2hot, keep looking. Those prices seem too high for packaged systems like those they are really cake to install. If the floor is flat and the plumbing sound, it is pretty simple to do.
I'm not saying you should tackle this yourself, just saying it is a moneymaker at ~8K for somebody. If I were in that business I'd take that money all day long.
I do work for a plumbing company and you could get a couple of our guys out there for 2000 for the day and they would knock it in the head in two days.
That's 4K. The hard parts are ~3K with quite a bit of variability depending on your tastes. That included a glass door at Lowe's, I took a glance just now.
A good plumbing company can do that job and you don't need to go out and get bids from those who advertise for this kind of work.
I'd be looking for recommendations for service plumbers and talk to them rather than contractors.
They have the company money built into the hourly rate, they are not trying to send their kid to the orthodontist on your little job.

 

[Retired Expat]

Hmmm good counter point....above..must over come my cheapness..LOL.
The sales rep guys came in with there samples and didn't really offer options. When the 15K guy gave us his quote we asked for lower cost quote with out his add ons and no glass door... Actually prefer a shower curtain. He was kinda of insulted and has yet to send us that quote.

So a guy calls a plumber and asks him to come over and clear a clogged toilet. Plumber says “ you want me to make a house call?? Bring the toilet to my shop.” Hey! The guy responds , if I could remove it I wouldn’t need you to come here… we’ll the Plumber lives 5 minutes away so he goes over and fixes it. 5 minutes work and hands the guy a bill for $1900! The home Owner is shocked. “$1900 for 5 minutes is $38,000 an hour, I am a top Neurosurgeon in demand all over the world and I don’t earn that kind of money!” Plumber is totally nonplussed (in the newer usage of the word meaning unfazed) and says “ well, when I was a neurosurgeon, I didn’t make this kind of money either!

I ran a Construction company for many years and it is criminal what some people charge. But you should understand also that a 1/2 days work is a full day for most guys as with travel and set up, clean up they can’t do 2 jobs in a day. A trip to the supply house can take hours and hours and invariably on a small job you will find something wrong that makes everything take twice as long as it should. I stopped doing small jobs or service jobs unless they were previous clients who had me build their home or do regular work for them. Simply could not charge enough to make it worth our while. Many the small contractor has found the same to be true. Also now insurance and workmen’s comp can double the hourly rate for a worker.

5 years ago I needed to get my father’s apt painted so I called a buddy who is a painting contractor and over the years I have him some of his largest and most lucrative projects ever and helped him open a second territory. He said he would charge me his cost for labor plus materials. $75 and hour for a painter.

Now, I had retired to South America by then and a painter cost $75 a day instead of $75 an hour. So I took a week and did it myself! Small jobs are much more expensive relatively than large jobs

 

[JoeWras]

Soon it will be.
This is a relatively new phenomenon.

$100/hour sounds fair.
This is not what people are complaining about.

Nope. Not new. People have complained about tradesman prices, well, forever.

And I'm amazed that all these people on this board who made a hundred an hour pressing keys and complaining about the structure of Megacorp's 401k and "only" 3 weeks of vacation are complaining about trades people making some money who typically never get vacation pay, get knocked out when it is bad weather, take a lot of risk, and have to deal with cranky customers every day.

 

[mrstop]

I agree @JoeWras. I'm a remodeling contractor who's a corporate refuge. As you mention, there is a ton of risk in the trades both financial and physical. Many tradespeople don't get any perks like vacation or retirement. If you don't work, generally you don't get paid.


Like any business, there are large costs involved just beyond the basic labor and materials to complete a job. I have about $20,000 in tools currently. I need to replace, maintain and upgrade those on a continual basis. I have to pay business and health insurance. I have to pay to come look at your job and give you an estimate. I have to pay to do bookkeeping and accounting. I have to pay to keep up with best practices and make sure the job is high quality and trouble-free. I have to market the business. I have to make sure I remain financially solvent so that, if there is a problem, I'll be around to take care of it. If I'm lucky, I might be able to save enough to take a vacation.


Those of you who get a paycheck would be surprised how much your company is paying for you, or maybe even billing for you. If you are making $100,000 a year, that is roughly $50/hr in your pocket gross. You are, in reality, with taxes benefits, overhead, etc. costing the company $120-$150/hr or more. It's the same in the trades and that is why the hourly rate is high.



Many of you wouldn't work for $10-$20 an hour, there is no reason why a trades person shouldn't be fairly compensated with a living wage. While these people "work with their hands," some are the among the smartest I have ever met or worked with. The amount of knowledge required to properly work on a home is staggering.

 

[427Vette]

Nope. Not new. People have complained about tradesman prices, well, forever.

And I'm amazed that all these people on this board who made a hundred an hour pressing keys and complaining about the structure of Megacorp's 401k and "only" 3 weeks of vacation are complaining about trades people making some money who typically never get vacation pay, get knocked out when it is bad weather, take a lot of risk, and have to deal with cranky customers every day.

It’s not only the hundred bucks an hour. It’s the expense accounts, company car, work from home, paid business travel turned vacation. Which is so ironic because no one wants to pay a tradesman to travel to their house.

When our business was for sale my brother in law expressed some interest. In his mind being an electrical engineer qualified him to own and operate and electrical contracting business. I was certain it would never work out but I wanted to explore every option. He got very upset when he saw what we were paying our licensed electricians. He said “that’s more than I get to make”. I had to explain to him that it’s not even close to the same type of job. I explained that you get to sit in a climate controlled office chair, never have to sweat, freeze or injure yourself while working. It all came down to the fact that he felt he deserved more because he had a “degree”. He said degree about a dozen times in that conversation. Him like most people still have it stuck in their heads on what we were all told in school is that you will never make anything of yourself unless you get a degree.

 

[Music Lover]

2hot, keep looking. Those prices seem too high for packaged systems like those they are really cake to install. If the floor is flat and the plumbing sound, it is pretty simple to do.
I'm not saying you should tackle this yourself, just saying it is a moneymaker at ~8K for somebody. If I were in that business I'd take that money all day long.
I do work for a plumbing company and you could get a couple of our guys out there for 2000 for the day and they would knock it in the head in two days.
That's 4K. The hard parts are ~3K with quite a bit of variability depending on your tastes. That included a glass door at Lowe's, I took a glance just now.
A good plumbing company can do that job and you don't need to go out and get bids from those who advertise for this kind of work.
I'd be looking for recommendations for service plumbers and talk to them rather than contractors.
They have the company money built into the hourly rate, they are not trying to send their kid to the orthodontist on your little job.

I paid a plumber $700 to rough-in for a new basement half bathroom. They were already there for a different project and it only required breaking up an additional 10' of concrete.

I framed the walls, did the electrical, drywall and mudding, and laid tile on the floor, and did the finished plumbing. My material cost was about $800. It was a small bathroom, about 4' x 8' and took about 3 days. It was new construction so I didn't have to "fix" anything.

All in $1500. I don't know what it would have cost to pay someone to do the entire job, but I doubt anyone would have shown up for anything under $6k.

 

[ERD50]

I am curious if anyone has actually seen a trip charge line itemed on an invoice. I think it might be a folk tale. None of my contractor friends or myself ever listed it separately. It would be non stop complaining from customers if it was shown as such. We used to charge a full hour rate, $100.00 for the first half hour. ...

The $100 for the first half hour is basically the same thing as a 'trip charge'. It covers the average cost of the time to get there, set up, get a sense of the problem (most homeowners are terrible at describing the problem).

I stress average, because people here are saying things like "what if he was just 5 minutes away?". And others I think pointed out, "What if he was an hour away?". Do you really want to be charged based on where he happened to be for the last call? Just like just about any bill a business has to pay, these get averaged out, and are just part of the rate. Makes sense to me to charge something for the initial "walk in the door", there is a higher average cost associated with that, because of the average dead time between calls.

I'm a DIY guy, but I don't begrudge the honest repair guys/gals one bit. I think the toughest part is so many homeowners don't understand anything, and some complain about a 'rip-off', when it is totally unfounded.

] ....
This is a relatively new phenomenon.

$100/hour sounds fair.
This is not what people are complaining about.

Maybe calling it out is 'new', but I think some form of the "house call" charge has been around a long time.

-ERD50

 

[Car-Guy]

I'm surprised at some of the prices mentioned in this thread, even with inflation. (Crazy) When we had our new house built a little over 10 years ago, we did opt for the fancy shower in the master bath but we stuck with the traditional model in the other bath. I don't recall the "additional" cost being anything like that back then. I guess because it was a new build.

 

[Music Lover]

The $100 for the first half hour is basically the same thing as a 'trip charge'. It covers the average cost of the time to get there, set up, get a sense of the problem (most homeowners are terrible at describing the problem).

I stress average, because people here are saying things like "what if he was just 5 minutes away?". And others I think pointed out, "What if he was an hour away?". Do you really want to be charged based on where he happened to be for the last call? Just like just about any bill a business has to pay, these get averaged out, and are just part of the rate. Makes sense to me to charge something for the initial "walk in the door", there is a higher average cost associated with that, because of the average dead time between calls.
-ERD50

One of my bandmates is a heavy-duty mechanic. He's told to charge for travel time, although the reality is that he is expected to bill for 8 hours a day per company policy. He does his best to schedule jobs close to each other but sometimes it's impossible, and as you said a customer could be billed for 1 hour for a 30-minute job. If he didn't charge for travel time then he doesn't bill for 8 hours over 8 actual hours of his time.

 

[Music Lover]

I'm surprised at some of the prices mentioned in this thread, even with inflation. (Crazy) When we had our new house built a little over 10 years ago, we did opt for the fancy shower in the master bath but we stuck with the traditional model in the other bath. I don't recall the "additional" cost being anything like that back then. I guess because it was a new build.

New builds are always easier as there's nothing hidden behind the walls, no demo, and usually much easier access.

 

[mrstop]

I'm surprised at some of the prices mentioned in this thread, even with inflation. (Crazy) When we had our new house built a little over 10 years ago, we did opt for the fancy shower in the master bath but we stuck with the traditional model in the other bath. I don't recall the "additional" cost being anything like that back then. I guess because it was a new build.

New builds are a different story and business model. With a few exceptions, like you are doing a custom build, you generally aren't getting top quality materials and installation. Home builders are about speed and cost. As long as it looks good enough and lasts past the one year warranty the builder is fine with it. There is also some scale with a new build as all the trades are already there. A remodel is a whole other can of worms depending on the age of the home and how many previous remodels have been done.


Bathrooms, along with kitchens are the most expensive areas of a home. A mid range master bath with tile can have almost $5,000 to $10,000 or more in materials, cabinets and fixtures alone.

 

[Philliefan33]

“What should it cost” is a similar question to “what is it worth?” when trying to sell something. It’s worth what someone will pay for it. From the point of view of the guy doing the job, it’s worth what someone will pay for it.

The OP has in mind that the job should cost $10K. However, he has two quotes in the $14K - $15K range. That means they have customers lined up who will pay that rate.

Maybe get a third quote? If that also comes in above $10K, it’s safe to say that the OP’s expectations were off base.