Being Forced Out

[Starper]

Document everything. Keep a log of events including rule violations.

If there are colleagues who can act as witnesses in the future to support her legal claim, kerp that in mind. Perhaps they are suffering too and would be happy to stick it to managers.

Talk to a lawyer.

Consider filing FMLA and/or medical leave due to stress.

 

[mountainsoft]

If she is the primary breadwinner it might be better for you to take off and take her mom versus her.

I would be willing, but she's close to her mom and it's really important to her to be there at every appointment to ask questions she doesn't think her mom will ask. If it came right down to it, at least two of her siblings "could" help out but don't for various reasons.

Thankfully, most of the appointments are in the evenings so she's really not missing much work, it's mostly just the added stress of driving back and forth and trying to fit everything in.

 

[mountainsoft]

MS, why not file the grievance , isn't that why your DW belongs to a union?

I agree, but it's up to my wife. She's the one that has to work there every day. We're still waiting to hear from the union rep regarding what the grievance might accomplish.

Out of the blue... I suspect someone is getting hacked off about her time away from work to care for her DM, or her performance is slipping for the same reason.

Yeah, I know the stresses are affecting our personal relationship, so I'm sure it is affecting her performance and attitude at work too. On the other hand, the "incidents" the PIP is based on supposedly took place in January and April, before she started doing any of these doctor runs. I suggested she take a little time off work to reduce her load for a while (she has tons of vacation and sick leave built up), but she's covering for multiple people at work who are also out right now and doesn't feel she can take time off.

I know you are nervous and concerned but you might cool it with the "couple new job options" for your DW. That's not every remotely possible right now with DM's condition and is likely adding stress to your DW's situation.

I didn't even bring it up until she mentioned looking, and I certainly haven't pestered her about it. We talked about it last night for the first time, she explained why it wasn't a good idea right now, so I agreed and said it was best to just ride it out in her current position as long as possible.

 

[mountainsoft]

Does your wife have FMLA in place to care for her Mom?

She has filed FMLA a few times in the past, but her manager said it wasn't necessary for these appointments since she only misses an hour or two of work each week (typically 30 minutes at the end of the day 2-3 times a week).

Again, sorry your wife is going through this stressful time. Hopefully she can "white knuckle it" until she qualifies for full pension, without causing her own health issues.

She is fully vested in the state pension plan, so no worries there even if she loses her job. However, she can't start taking the pension for another four years.

 

[davebarnes]

For now my wife wants to just ride out the PIP and see where it goes.

That is crazy and foolish.

 

[mountainsoft]

That is crazy and foolish.

I honestly don't know what the best course of action is. I had never even heard of a PIP before this. My wife has been so busy taking care of her mom that we haven't had much time to sit down together and talk through the various options. It doesn't help that I don't know anything about this process, or what the union can or can't do to help.

To make matters worse, my wife is obviously stressed out and overextended, and is probably taking whatever seems like the easiest option for her. The last thing she wants to do is go through some long process involving ton's of paperwork or to have to take on more obligations right now.

There's really not much I can do other than gather information and support her decisions.

 

[FI_RElater]

first of all, in many places if you are on a PIP --- YOU CAN'T EVEN APPLY FOR ANOTHER POSITION. You would need to clarify with your union rep

AFA grievance... they've already got a target on her back, hence the PIP , even though it's not proper

FILE for FMLA, since there's a pattern that you have already said has applied- - multiple instances of missing hours of work later in the day. That, in itself is problematic and is easily a basis for action; even though the manager might have said one thing, there's NO DOCUMENTATION that they agreed to anything. Further, be very careful of putting TMI on the "net" ( including this site) as it could be used against her.

 

[Calico]

She has filed FMLA a few times in the past, but her manager said it wasn't necessary for these appointments since she only misses an hour or two of work each week (typically 30 minutes at the end of the day 2-3 times a week).

She is fully vested in the state pension plan, so no worries there even if she loses her job. However, she can't start taking the pension for another four years.

It's simple: she should not trust the manager. They are part of the chain of command implementing the PIP. I can tell you where the PIP is going: they are going to get rid of her.

I understand she has her plate full now with the job and caring for her mom, and the stress generated by both of those obligations. But burying her head in the sand, denying the seriousness of the situation, and "doing the easiest thing" will only result in her being terminated sooner rather than later. She already has a target on her back. You don't "ride out" a PIP. You either roll over or you fight. Now, rolling over is a choice, and it is the one she will be making by default if she does not fight.

They will definitely use her pattern of taking time off against her. If she files for FMLA now she may get some protection that way. Her situation is exactly what "intermittent FMLA" was designed for. If she files a grievance she may be able to stretch out the process.

I am sorry your wife is going through this. Over the last several years I have seen this happen to hard working older employees with decades of service - usually when a younger manager comes in and wants to "clean house." At least where I w#rk they follow all the steps in the process (because they are afraid of lawsuits) but in the end, if they really want to get rid of someone, they find a way to do it, I'm sorry to say.

Best of luck to your wife. I hope she can find a way to take care of her own physical and mental health, because all the stress definitely affects both.

 

[Lakewood90712]

To the OP. Better check the civil service and pension rules.

In the mega city I retired from, if an employee was terminated for cause: no pension or medical, just return of the employee contribution plus interest ( based on the 5 year treasurery rate). Being vested does not always protect a pension.

Most of the time, an employee being terminated for cause, would " resign in lieu of termination" to save their pension.

If the employer violated the contract , and a grievance is not pursued, that may have a chilling effect if a labor law complaint or litigation was pursued in the future. Usually you must exhaust an administrative remedy first.

Sitting on the fence is not only uncomfortable, it is hazardous to one's career IMO. Sometimes a person is forced to fight .

It should not be this way, but it is

 

[ivinsfan]

She has filed FMLA a few times in the past, but her manager said it wasn't necessary for these appointments since she only misses an hour or two of work each week (typically 30 minutes at the end of the day 2-3 times a week).



She is fully vested in the state pension plan, so no worries there even if she loses her job. However, she can't start taking the pension for another four years.

The same manager who is sitting back and either tacitly or aggressively signing off on her going to a PIP, you guys need to wake up because I can hear the fat lady warming up to sing.

 

[CRLLS]

It is a tough situation to be in. One possible situation not mentioned, although very slim, is that the City manager may end up taking another job somewhere else while DW is hanging on. While not in the public sector, I was in this situation and outcome. It was a big relief when I saw his bags packed. Hanging on as long as DW can endure it, it may resolve itself.

Do you have a solid FIRE plan? This can help DW see the light at the end of the tunnel. This might help her cope with the situation over the short term. In any case, if it is too stressful, she should plan on finding alternative employment. Only she can determine the level of stress she can take.

In either case, if the union is strong, things won't happen in a moment's notice.

 

[mountainsoft]

First, I appreciate the input and information from everyone, even if some of the advice is a bit more aggressive and adversarial than we would pursue.

After speaking with the union rep, my wife has chosen not to pursue a grievance. While I might personally choose a different route, I support her decision. Even the union rep said it would be a long hard battle with no guarantee of a positive outcome. As Teacher Terry said, if they want her out, she is going to be out one way or another. It doesn't make sense to fight to stay in a position where you are not wanted and constantly on guard.

Contrary to some of the comments here, we're not naively sitting back hoping this will all go away on it's own. There is a very real chance this may lead to termination, hopefully not, but that's the likely outcome. In the meantime my wife is doing everything she can to comply with the PIP requirements, and documenting everything. If she is terminated anyway, then she may have grounds for wrongful termination, but we'll cross that if we get there. On the other hand, if this is truly just about a performance issue, complying with the requirements may satisfy the plan and allow her to continue on. We'll see.

As for her pension, it's run by the state, not her employer. I have read through all of the contracts and documentation and it seems to confirm that once she is vested (after 5 years, wife has 30+) the pension is guaranteed even if she is terminated.

I have been running a lot of numbers this week, just in case she loses her job. If she can get even a low paying part time job for the next three years, we should still come out OK in the end.

 

[ivinsfan]

MS did you read your last post, your DW won't file a grievance, is going to sit and see what happens and then maybe if she is fired she has a case for WRONGFUL TERMINATION? talk about the tail wagging the dog. You first post says your DW is a great employee so what is she going to do the make good into the best employee.

I get the feeling reading your last comment that there's more going on here and this PIP might be somewhat justified.

Just curious why you guys think availing herself of rights and rules that are firmly in place for her protection is "aggressive and adversarial"?

 

[RunningBum]

Kind of repeating myself from post 50, but it's like she's been pushed to the edge of a cliff by her manager, who is standing next to her ready for one final push.

You can file a grievance, which will basically (if is succeeds) move the manager away from her so she can back away from the cliff.

The concern is that the manager will come back and again push her to the edge of the cliff and maybe over, but she's already there, so how could it be any worse? But maybe the manager will realize she can't be pushed around so easy, and he'll go after some other target instead.

We had a PIP system in mega corp. Not sure if it works the same, but I only saw one person survive that.

 

[mountainsoft]

this PIP might be somewhat justified.

I said in my first post that my wife did make a mistake. I never denied there was justification for the PIP, just that it was an overblown response to a minor issue.

Just curious why you guys think availing herself of rights and rules that are firmly in place for her protection is "aggressive and adversarial"?

It is my wife's decision. She has been there over 30 years and knows the dynamics of the office. She has seen the outcome of others who have filed grievances and the outcome has never been positive or productive.

After 30+ years I suppose we have lost our desire to fight situations like this. We are planning to retire in a few years anyway, so it seems pointless to fight to stay in a position if they truly want her gone. Winning for the sake of staying in an unpleasant work environment is no win at all.

In the end we are the ones that have to live with our decisions, good or bad, right or wrong.

 

[ivinsfan]

MS, you guys are going through a lot and at the end of day, your DW might just do better outside of that work environment. I hope things work out ok, yet I hate to see the bully win. Until people stand up for themselves nothing will change.

 

[ocean view]

I’ve never seen any employee come out of a PIP on a positive note. Even if your wife meets all the requirements, she and the manager will now have a soured relationship that can be hard to overcome and create more strain in the workplace.

My recommendation is that your wife take control of this situation by finding a new job now. It is much easier to find a job while employed than after you’ve been terminated. No new employer wants to hire someone who was fired, regardless of the reason for termination. When any prospective employer asks why she is changing jobs, her response is “after 30+ years, I need a change”. No one will think twice about it. If she waits to job search until she is fired, she has to lie about her departure and risk them finding out the truth. Never a good position to be in.

 

[HI Bill]

I never denied there was justification for the PIP, just that it was an overblown response to a minor issue.

I wonder what else is going on here. As a manager of a staff of 9, I had several with performance issues. The job was remote and required commuting by helicopter, and it was hard to find competent employees. I let some of the performance issues drag on far too long. I had to complete the PIP process two times. After going through the process, I learned two things:

1) The employer uses the process to mitigate the risk of being sued for wrongful termination.
2) Someone who enters the process usually has significant performance issues. They will not improve enough to survive the process.

I hope in your wife's case, she's in the right, but in the end it may not matter. Document everything, CYA.

 

[mountainsoft]

Someone who enters the process usually has significant performance issues.

I don't know what to say. The PIP makes it sound like this has been an ongoing problem, but in 30 years this is the first I've heard of it. My wife has received numerous employee awards, has been promoted many times, and is well liked by everyone she works with at all levels in the organization. I don't know how anyone could be more dedicated to their work than she is. Maybe I'm just biased, but that doesn't sound like an employee with performance issues.

 

[Buckeye]

If you have any thought of pursuing a wrongful termination lawsuit, the time to hire a lawyer is NOW! And yes, they will fire her. When she gets fired, file for Unemployment Compensation no matter what her employer tells her about her eligibility for benefits. Get the paperwork in immediately and if (when) her claim is denied, you can fight from there.

 

[Scuba]

Mountainsoft, I know this is difficult, but why not at least talk this through with a good employment attorney now? The attorney can give you and DW advice on the best approach and how to protect DW as best as possible.

If it were me, I would definitely hire the attorney now, and I would find a new job ASAP. I agree with others that PIP’s are a process used by employers to get rid of someone in a legally correct manner. Usually once an employee goes onto a PIP, the situation is not truly salvageable.

I don’t know much about unions and grievance processes but I think an investment in a good employment attorney would be a very prudent move at this point. Best case, the attorney helps DW keep her job. Worst case, the attorney helps DW get the best severance benefits possible. Win-win for you and DW either way.

 

[Amethyst]

The two of you need to make protecting her pension a priority. Right now things are tangled and ugly, but in a few years it will be history. As a former manager, I am seeing "good past performance," "management not going through all the proper steps," and "Union rep says she has a case.".

Stand and fight! The managers may run scared. If not, what has she lost? And try to share the caregiving so she can focus on regaining her good work reputation.

Good luck.

 

[mystang52]

The two of you need to make protecting her pension a priority. Right now things are tangled and ugly, but in a few years it will be history. As a former manager, I am seeing "good past performance," "management not going through all the proper steps," and "Union rep says she has a case.".

Stand and fight! The managers may run scared. If not, what has she lost? And try to share the caregiving so she can focus on regaining her good work reputation.

Good luck.

Spot on. Fighting a PIP is distasteful, and stressful, for the employee.....but it's not fun for management either. With only 5 years to originally planned retirement, OP's spouse could survive this if not full 5 years, but maybe 2 or even 3. That would make retirement finances that much better. And with a Union rep, and presumably an attorney, spouse doesn't have to do most of that stressful work in fighting the PIP. Pension benefits are way too important to blithely not fight the PIP.

 

[ncbill]

I don't know what to say. The PIP makes it sound like this has been an ongoing problem, but in 30 years this is the first I've heard of it. My wife has received numerous employee awards, has been promoted many times, and is well liked by everyone she works with at all levels in the organization. I don't know how anyone could be more dedicated to their work than she is. Maybe I'm just biased, but that doesn't sound like an employee with performance issues.

Ummm...has she been medically evaluated recently?

My mom died from a form of dementia that strikes age 45 - age 55.

Mom was officially diagnosed around age 50.

Saw the same happen to the (female) assistant controller at the Fortune 500 company where I was working at the time...she was mom's age as well.

From reading online support groups, the above form of dementia seems to disproportionately affect females.

A medical problem might be the reason for any sudden performance issues.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Spot on. Fighting a PIP is distasteful, and stressful, for the employee.....but it's not fun for management either. With only 5 years to originally planned retirement, OP's spouse could survive this if not full 5 years, but maybe 2 or even 3. That would make retirement finances that much better. And with a Union rep, and presumably an attorney, spouse doesn't have to do most of that stressful work in fighting the PIP. Pension benefits are way too important to blithely not fight the PIP.

+2. Beyond the issue of self-protection, filing a grievance could deter management from trying to force out other senior employees with unwarranted performance plans (assuming it is unwarranted). The grievance procedure is written into the workplace contract for a reason, to protect workers from unfair management practices. If you think your wife is being treated unfairly, it would seem to be a justifiable action. Moreover, I'm no lawyer, but I would expect that a grievance on the record would help support any future unfair termination suit.