Being Forced Out

[pacergal]

What does her union rep say?

This is important.
I have worked in a government union environment. A PIP or work plan generally doesn't come out of the blue, there are usually multiple steps in discipline that happen.
Hopefully, she is in contact with her union labor rep and knows/understands what she needs to do to keep her job. Crappy Office politics aside, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
(Personal experience only: I have placed folks on a PIP, the intention was not to fire, but to improve their performance so they could remain a valuable employee. )

Is there a way you could work a second job besides your self employment to bring in more money? UBER, Lyft, Amazon driver? Part time school bus driver? Those all advertise $17-20/hr around here. Every little bit helps.
Anything to squeak by the next few years until you may be closer to your retirement goals.
I am sorry your DW and you are going through this. I hope things work out for you.

 

[FreeBear]

However, over the last year or two the environment has really become toxic. Micromanaging, secrecy, personality conflicts, and favoritism have become the norm, seniority means nothing anymore. There have been multiple incidents over the last few years where employees retired early or were terminated after very minor accusations (many of which were not true).

DW worked for a small municipality here in Texas for 26 years. She had the same boss for that entire time. He "insulated" her from most of the nonsense so that she could just concentrate on work. She really enjoyed her job as a result. They both retired 3 years ago and now DW's former coworkers are reporting behavior eerily similar to the OP.

There's a new City Manager who is very much focused on cost reduction. He brought in his own team of assistant city managers. There have been multiple rounds of departmental restructuring with older more experienced managers and workers replaced with younger "favorites" of the new management team. The older workers are either demoted or, more frequently, forced out on vague accusations of policy violations... usually into a much earlier retirement than they were planning. Rumor is that they are trying to prevent further accretion in pension values for the older workers.

Ouch, goes to show this can happen anywhere, not just the private sector. I've never experienced anything like this level of harassment, but the general stink was the same.

I was so unhappy for the last 2 years at w*rk. Nothing was as emotionally traumatic, except for the loss of 2 close family members fairly early into my career. Hard w*rk never really phased me, but the kangaroo court accusations and emotional water boarding was miserable. Probably much like the BS all to many kids report in high school, although I was fortunate back then.

Sorry, no advice. I didn't know what to do either in my time. I was blessed to be able to walk way, on my term, just before the door would have hit me in the a$$. My heart goes out to you guys.

 

[Music Lover]

If my wife was being mistreated at work and called me in tears over it, it would be the last day she worked there - regardless of whether we had prepared for it or not. I'm surprised how many suggest sucking it up for four more years.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I worked for MegaGovt and hated my last 3 years (not toxic, but getting there and I had had enough). But I was vested in a COLA pension and made the choice to ride it out to get to the point where I could retire without penalty. Now I happily collect my full monthly pension with no regrets.

To the OP...is a lateral transfer possible? If not, is it possible for her to just show up, "tune it all out" and do the required widgets per hour with no emotional involvement?

 

[mountainsoft]

I personally would not post my wife's employment problems with a local government employer, especially when I display where I reside next to my post.

My wife doesn't work in our town, and I am being intentionally vague about her employer or which of the half dozen surrounding cities they may be located in. That is irrelevant. I'm not trying to call out the organization or any of the people who work there. My wife has enjoyed the work she does and we have benefited greatly from her time there.

Sure, with a little digging anyone could identify me and trace it back to her employer, but why? I'm expressing MY thoughts about what could happen. This may or may not agree with my wife's views.

Remember, I'm seeing this whole situation from my wife's perspective. After more than 35 years together I like to think I have a fairly good grasp of her character and dedication, but I'm only hearing one side. She may act different at work than she does at home. I don't feel the actions being taken are justified, but that's just my view looking in from the outside.

In any case, there are a whole series of steps that would need to occur before she would be terminated. It is highly unlikely that would happen, and even if it did I suspect it would be a long process, at which time we may be in a better position to retire. The point is just the "threat" of losing her job at this late point in our lives is scary, and really makes me think about what options we may or may not have. It's just a wake up call that life may have other plans than we do.

As for the "Take no S**T" recommendations, we didn't get this far by bailing when things get tough. Is it difficult to see my wife upset after a particularly rough day, absolutely, it breaks my heart. But I trust her enough to let her make her own decisions. When SHE reaches a point that she wants out, I'll back her up and we'll figure out a way to make it work. I'm not going to make the situation worse with some kind of manly macho attitude.

This too shall pass. They've made their point, we'll adapt and move on. There's no reason to run for the hills unless this issue progresses further. As with most things in life, we will cross that bridge when we get there. The longer we can stick it out, the better it will be for our future.

 

[RunningBum]

Sounds like a very sound and pragmatic approach. Good luck to both of you.

 

[FreeBear]

As for the "Take no S**T" recommendations, we didn't get this far by bailing when things get tough. Is it difficult to see my wife upset after a particularly rough day, absolutely, it breaks my heart. But I trust her enough to let her make her own decisions. When SHE reaches a point that she wants out, I'll back her up and we'll figure out a way to make it work. I'm not going to make the situation worse with some kind of manly macho attitude.

This too shall pass. They've made their point, we'll adapt and move on. There's no reason to run for the hills unless this issue progresses further. As with most things in life, we will cross that bridge when we get there. The longer we can stick it out, the better it will be for our future.

This is wise. I put up with similar crap for over a decade, although not quite as bad. Hopefully, your DW won't have to wait as long. Still, I knew every day brought me closer to the promised land savings-wise. In retrospect, I'm glad I toughed it out, but I'm even more glad I left when I did. I still remember the grin on my face the very last time I saw some of these folks, when I no longer even had to pretend to tolerate their BS.

 

[Bluegrass]

By posting rather than PM’ing, everyone reading this thread gets the benefit of that sound advice. Aside from perhaps saving the OP some minor embarrassment, why would it have been better to PM?

 

[FI_RElater]

time for a lawyer, in addition to the union rep

I'd say you better get a lawyer that can address your problem

also, did she "admit guilt " (i.e., say she did something against policy?). The reason I ask: was it a new policy? if so, was there training on the policy (with written/signed acknowledgment)? if not, then there could be grounds for serious challenge to any PIP ( the union rep should be able to advise, but a lawyer could persue)

does she have a medical issue she needs addressed?
if so, she should, first have medical personnel create documentation, then require them to allow for treatment {This gives you time to seek lawyer, rebut their claims}. presumably, she has plenty of sick leave; the documentation is needed to allow her to use it.

When I was in an area with a fairly toxic environment, I made sure that (1) I wasn't with/in contact without someone else present (2) NO comments were made to them (even when an egregious mistake was made by them).... that's what your and their supervisor is for, and (3) I stopped "volunteering" any training
Her job is (basically) to make it as difficult to fire her and to make it expensive (directly and indirectly) to replace (with, as you noted, their "favorites", who might not have the training or experience to get the job done correctly)

...assume that she'll be walking over hot coals for the rest of the duration; even if this one can be extinguished, another will be started if ANY hint of transgression appears. A lawyer might be able to bring a case of toxic work environment, and possible settlements (and even early retirement, if that could be negotiated)

[BTW, this presumes that the union rep isn't on "their side".... ]

 

[ocean view]

At one of my employers the process for forcing out an employee always seemed to go like this: 1-place employee on PIP, 2-employee gets doctor to place them on medical LOA due to stress (they can’t fire you in my state while on LOA), 3 while on LOA, consult attorney and look for new job, 4-employee returns from LOA and suddenly a “package” is offered which includes an release of claims clause, so employee can’t sue employer for wrongful termination. Usually the payoff in my department was 3-4 months salary. I saw it happen many times.

A friend of mine also used the medical LOA when he was told he was going to be laid off just 3 months before he reached his 25 yr vesting point for his pension. He didn’t fake the stress, as his wife was in the midst of cancer treatments as well. But it allowed for him to better plan his departure (a plan for medical coverage going forward) and ensure the company didn’t screw him out of his pension.

Just keep the medical LOA in the back of your mind in the event things start to get really bad and you need to stretch out the process.

 

[YakGrl]

It may be a good move for your wife to see a counselor to discuss the stress she is going through. That may be available from her work benefits. That can also be documented if you pursue lawsuit in the future. You mentioned her caregiving to take her mother to doctors appointments. That can add to stress. Could you or other family members help with that?

 

[ivinsfan]

It may be a good move for your wife to see a counselor to discuss the stress she is going through. That may be available from her work benefits. That can also be documented if you pursue lawsuit in the future. You mentioned her caregiving to take her mother to doctors appointments. That can add to stress. Could you or other family members help with that?

Is this perhaps the real issue? If it is perhaps it's time to apply for some FMLA..and get it on the record.

 

[Running_Man]

She is eligible for the full pension now, but can't draw until she is 55 (a bit over 4 years from now). Of course, the amount would be a bit less without the contributions of the next 4 years.

I'm helping her watch for other positions, but she's been so busy with work and taking her mom to doctor appointments she hasn't had time to look at anything.

You should be careful on this, many pensions allow more generous pensions when you retire at age 55 from the company versus retiring from outside the company. In most cases they are the same at age 65 but at age 55 it could be as much as 50 percent if outside the company and 75 percent if inside the company, effectively cutting pension by 1/3

 

[mystang52]

1) Do everything possible to show documented improvement per the PIP.
1a) Recognize that doing so may very well not matter.
2) Get a lawyer now.

 

[tb001]

It may be a good move for your wife to see a counselor to discuss the stress she is going through. That may be available from her work benefits. That can also be documented if you pursue lawsuit in the future. You mentioned her caregiving to take her mother to doctors appointments. That can add to stress. Could you or other family members help with that?

Yes. Start documenting the stress it’s causing and look into the possibility of medical loa.

 

[Starper]

Posting to follow

 

[38Chevy454]

It's a tough situation. I guess my best advice is that the rules work both ways. Ensure that you and DW know the rules and how they apply to both sides. The union rep should be of help, and of course a lawyer of your won that is skilled in the area of employment law and age discrimination or wrongful termination type suits.

 

[cyber888]

It is now time to save as much CASH as possible in the next 6 months, cut all unnecessary expenses (no movies, no eating out, no buying clothings, no nothing) and use the FU money .. if they cut her loose.

 

[Scuba]

At the end of the 6 month probation period if they decide to let her go, will she get a severance package for the years of service ?

If yes, then you may want to consider short circuiting the probation process and she can just go now - with the severance and benefits. This is something that she will have to negotiate with her management. Usually in situations like this the "company" wants it to go away and may agree. As a plus she will also get unemployment benefits which she may not get if she resigns.

I agree, good strategy. Often they’ll pay big bucks to accelerate the process with a long-term employee.

 

[Lakewood90712]

In a civil service job, the only individual " Severance package " or " Settlement" would be with pending or current litigation where the employer is actually convinced it would loose and be publicly embarrassed.

Exempt managers in state / Local government very often receive severance packages when they are fired , but that is exempt , not under civil service rules and protections. It is normal practice. The managers receive the package upon termination, and sign off on non disclosure. I have seen first hand , many times. Dirty or incompetent managers, being terminated , and rightly so, for in excusable acts, then going on to very successful careers at other government employers. Sometimes they turn over a new leaf, get better at management, sometimes they just get better at being sneaky and not getting caught.

When you are a non exempt employee terminated by a civil service commission proceedings, it's very different. About like having an A on your forehead

These managers ALWAYS have dirt on the agency and elected officials, and I do mean ALWAYS.

 

[mountainsoft]

I have worked in a government union environment. A PIP or work plan generally doesn't come out of the blue, there are usually multiple steps in discipline that happen.

Her union rep says her employer violated multiple sections of the contract by not following the progression of disciplinary options. They jumped right to the PIP without "just cause". Like I said, this came out of no where. The rep told my wife she has grounds for filing a grievance, but my wife is concerned about going down that route. For one it puts a big target on her back, with a boss who would probably consider it a personal challenge to win, or make her work life miserable. Second, even if this somehow went away, who's to say they wouldn't just start the whole process again going through the intermediate steps this time. I told my wife to ask the rep more questions about what a grievance would achieve, but I suspect it's a no win situation with little to be gained.

I found a couple new job options for her, but she says she doesn't have time to apply for a new job. She's racing around trying to get work done before she takes her mom to doctor appointments 2-3 times a week. If that weren't enough, she just got notice of jury duty. She's also worried that she wouldn't be able to take time off to care for her mom if she starts a new job somewhere. You usually can't tell new employers you're going to be gone a lot.

The sad thing is she has seven siblings, but most live far away or are unable to help. I do what I can to help, but am busy running my own business, picking up the slack around the house, and taking care of my own mother too.

For now my wife wants to just ride out the PIP and see where it goes. I understand her reasoning, but am not as hopeful about the outcome. I hope I'm wrong. I'm not planning any vacations, am postponing some home improvement projects I had been planning to do this summer, and am saving as much as I can "just in case".

 

[Teacher Terry]

If she is the primary breadwinner it might be better for you to take off and take her mom versus her. When I worked for the state it took 2 years but if they wanted you gone they would be relentless.

 

[ivinsfan]

MS, why not file the grievance , isn't that why your DW belongs to a union?

Out of the blue... I suspect someone is getting hacked off about her time away from work to care for her DM, or her performance is slipping for the same reason. I know you are nervous and concerned but you might cool it with the "couple new job options" for your DW. That's not every remotely possible right now with DM's condition and is likely adding stress to your DW's situation.

 

[pacergal]

OP--ugh... having manager not follow labor rules is awful. Having been on both sides (management and labor rep) in my previous job, this used to fry my bacon when managers did that. I understand her not wanting to rock the boat, but sometimes filing a grievance gets everything out in the open and, if there is a good HR dept, they will educate the manager on the labor contract to correct the situation.
Does your wife have FMLA in place to care for her Mom? Leaving work for that might be an issue with her current manager.
Again, sorry your wife is going through this stressful time. Hopefully she can "white knuckle it" until she qualifies for full pension, without causing her own health issues.

 

[Teacher Terry]

When I was using a lot of my vacation and sick leave to fly across the country to take care of my mom my manager told me to apply for FMLA so as to protect myself. He didn’t care but he pointed out that he could die and the next person in his job might not feel the same.

 

[RunningBum]

Her union rep says her employer violated multiple sections of the contract by not following the progression of disciplinary options. They jumped right to the PIP without "just cause". Like I said, this came out of no where. The rep told my wife she has grounds for filing a grievance, but my wife is concerned about going down that route. For one it puts a big target on her back, with a boss who would probably consider it a personal challenge to win, or make her work life miserable. Second, even if this somehow went away, who's to say they wouldn't just start the whole process again going through the intermediate steps this time. I told my wife to ask the rep more questions about what a grievance would achieve, but I suspect it's a no win situation with little to be gained.

She's worried about having a big target on her back, but by accepting it she's just made an easy target of herself, and is letting her boss get away with breaking the rules. Seems to me there's a lot to gain. If they can PIP her without just cause, they probably think they can fire her pretty easily while on PIP, no matter what she does. Just my thoughts on it.