Being Forced Out

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with getting a employment lawyer. Yes it’s your wife’s decision but I would definitely talk to her about it. Somehow you will get through the next 5 years regardless of what happens but the pension is priceless.

 

[Calico]

Spot on. Fighting a PIP is distasteful, and stressful, for the employee.....but it's not fun for management either. With only 5 years to originally planned retirement, OP's spouse could survive this if not full 5 years, but maybe 2 or even 3. That would make retirement finances that much better. And with a Union rep, and presumably an attorney, spouse doesn't have to do most of that stressful work in fighting the PIP. Pension benefits are way too important to blithely not fight the PIP.

+100

At this point your wife would not be fighting to keep the job long-term. She would be fighting to protect the pension she spent decades earning.

Never underestimate an employer's capacity or willingness to scr#w you out of what you have rightfully earned. I have seen it happen to others.

 

[pb4uski]

... your wife needs an attorney experienced in these cases. Age and gender discrimination plus harassment are key issues in these situations. ......

+1 This will signal that she is willing to fight for her job and will be a big thorn in their side unless thay back off and let her finish off her 4 years. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

Management not following proper procedure in discipling her will also help her cause. Find a bulldog and it may well go away.

 

[ivinsfan]

Right now your DW is presenting herself as a doormat and according you, your DW is presenting one reason after another why she can't/won't pick herself up off the floor and start to ask for proper procedure to be followed.

Is your DW depressed or does she have anxiety issues? The reasoning you guys are following makes no sense, to me anyway. You are on the tracks and the train is coming but don't seem to want to save yourselves.

 

[mountainsoft]

She would be fighting to protect the pension she spent decades earning.

I contacted the retirement system directly:

"[FONT=&quot]A member will not lose their pension due to termination. The pension has already been earned by service credit years and contributions by the employee and employer."[/FONT]

 

[mountainsoft]

The grievance procedure is written into the workplace contract for a reason

Unfortunately, the deadline for filing a grievance has already passed.

 

[ivinsfan]

Unfortunately, the deadline for filing a grievance has already passed.

You say the employer violated the procedure for implementing the PIP, so I'm fairly certain some waves can me made by your DW...it was just two days ago you quoted the union rep as saying there was grounds for a grievance.

 

[Starper]

Unfortunately, the deadline for filing a grievance has already passed.

But you can still file a wrongful termination lawsuit or a discrimination complaint. The whole thing looks like age discrimination to me.

 

[ncbill]

Right now your DW is presenting herself as a doormat and according you, your DW is presenting one reason after another why she can't/won't pick herself up off the floor and start to ask for proper procedure to be followed.

Is your DW depressed or does she have anxiety issues? The reasoning you guys are following makes no sense, to me anyway. You are on the tracks and the train is coming but don't seem to want to save yourselves.

Another reason for a medical evaluation.

Disability 'retirement' may be a possibility.

 

[mountainsoft]

You are on the tracks and the train is coming but don't seem to want to save yourselves.

My wife has been so busy I don't think she has acknowledged the potential outcome of the PIP, or the reality of losing her job at this point. We have had very little time to speak since this occurred. There's not a whole lot I can do but sit back and wait for the train.

 

[Starper]

Another reason for a medical evaluation.

Disability 'retirement' may be a possibility.

How would you go about getting a medical evaluation in this case? Can you get medical disability due to work-related stress? Does it have to be clinical depression? What type of doctor would you go to?

 

[ivinsfan]

My wife has been so busy I don't think she has acknowledged the potential outcome of the PIP, or the reality of losing her job at this point. We have had very little time to speak since this occurred. There's not a whole lot I can do but sit back and wait for the train.

I must be an awful time for both of you and in spite of my pestering you have my complete sympathy.

Something is obviously troubling your DW if she is such denial. I agree you have no real power here.

 

[Teacher Terry]

With our public employer if you have a disability you can collect your pension at any age and the pension is not reduced. You can’t work somewhere else. Yes you can go out with a mental illness diagnosis. You would go see a psychiatrist.

 

[msanniee]

Worked 44 years. Some at small companys, some at mega corps, and the final 17 years was with a mega city. The real dirty, nasty stuff I saw, and sometimes experienced was at mega city. Managers at city government often think they are above the rules. In a situation like this , you are not on a level playing field. Time to be quiet, document everything and lawyer up. Being union usually does not preclude having your own atty. and also suggest not posting on social media. Social media post can filter back to the other side.

Exactly. Is there any documentation that others (who are younger, been with the agency less time, make less money) have made the same errors without such retaliation? That is called age discrimination. You should absolutely check with an attorney. And start building a paper trail.

 

[Jcny18]

Forced out

Sounds like it's time to take care of any elective surgery, to reduce sick time and start using up any comp time. The less time spent at work the better.

Actually , taking a lot of time off while on a PIP sends the exact wrong signal. Basically says you’ve given up and don’t care

 

[Jcny18]

Forced out

I personally would not post my wife's employment problems with a local government employer, especially when I display where I reside next to my post.

I absolutely agree with you. No privacy on the internet.

 

[imnontrad]

Check with Civilian Personnel

From what I remember, they are doing the "proper" steps to get her gone. No, it's not fair. I have heard one tactic some federal employees have used is to go to Civilian Personnel and say that they believe they are not performing up to their job description and request that they be taken down a GS level. This meant that in order to fir the person, they had to start this documentation process all over again.

But honestly, it is not worth the money or the health to stay on in a toxic environment. The two of you may decide that it's time for her to retire from there and move on. And hopefully she is planning to completely retire - which means giving 2 weeks notice to be polite would not be needed.

Does she have a lot of vacation hours and is this a federal GS position? If so, one thing that they do not realize is that if she retires, her employment actually ends only when all of her vacation hours are exhausted and they cannot even put out the position for hire (let alone tender an offer to someone) until this is complete. For some long time employees, this can be six months or more before the office can even start the hiring process.

She may also decide to go to the Personnel office and get a complete copy of her personnel file, including all evaluations. then take it to a lawyer who specializes in age discrimination cases. If she files a lawsuit about this, I do not believe they can either fire or retaliate in any way while this is being adjudicated. Detailed documentation of all events plus statements from a doctor about any health changes would be critical in this.

 

[troutnut1]

Longtime state employee now retired. Large national union. After complaining for years in writing and verbally about a hostile co-worker and toxic work environment I started documenting a co-workers entry into my office with my little Canon camera on time lapse. I caught her many times and complained further. Unbelievably, she entered my office again and stole the camera! She was seen by another co-worker. I called the police and she was arrested and made to pay restitution. I was called into a union hearing because they didn’t like that I had caught her images without her permission. I was an 18 year employee with a perfect record and a boss that liked me, but I still wanted my attorney to be present. But guess what? They said because I was union I couldn’t have an attorney. I called my attorney and he said they were right. I called the union President and asked if I could refuse to go? He said “nope. You have no choice except to show up, and to tell the truth.” So I did. I fried them will all my letters and evidence over the years. I still got two days off without pay for filming the thief without permission. (They were two beautiful summer days and I’ve always had more money than vacation time anyway.) The thief was terminated and lost her pension with ten years invested. I retired a couple of years later when my boss retired.

In my twenty years of state employment saw PIP plans used three times. All were terminal to the victim’s jobs. In all three cases management wanted to fire them immediately, (and the workers deserved it), but management just needed a little more time to document their case. One of them after being fired went through the union process and the boss was forced to bring her back again because of a technicality. That went over like a lead balloon because all the employees hated this person too. But then she was put on another PIP and fired again.

I think it’s fine to talk to an attorney before and after, but in general the union doesn’t like competition and during the worst of it you’ll get stuck with some co-worker union person to represent you (who probably is just trying to guarantee their position). The good part is they are at least free.

Your mileage may vary. Please keep your hands and feet inside the ride at all times...

 

[Vinnygret]

Gosh, this sounds so familiar. Once you are over 50, it seems you are suddenly more vulnerable. It happened when I worked in my local school system as well. The new principal wanted young teachers: no world experience, no informed opinions - she wanted a cult of youth, though she was not young herself. But younger people can be molded into what you want. Older teachers were targeted in so many ways to get them to retire or leave. If possible, I hope your wife can ride it out and keep some records for her own defense if it comes to that.

 

[Teacher Terry]

She is not federal or a state employee so may have less rights because of being a municipal employee. If you read the whole thread they cannot afford for her to retire. With that in mind I would fight and try to drag it out.

 

[Wincherr]

Sorry if I sound harsh. I certainly wouldnt tell her straight up shes going to lose her job because that would upset her...but I would absolutely encourage her to start looking elsewhere.

Maybe some would consider harsh, but 100 percent agree.

 

[Wincherr]

I found that when the end day is in sight, it's far easier to put up with the nonsense..

I call this wearing my “retirement goggles”. Gets me through a lot of BS with a smile on my face!

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

My wife has been so busy I don't think she has acknowledged the potential outcome of the PIP, or the reality of losing her job at this point. We have had very little time to speak since this occurred. There's not a whole lot I can do but sit back and wait for the train.

OP, I feel bad for both you and your spouse. I can tell from your posts that she loves her job and has an emotional attachment to it, and that you love her and want to support her.

The unfortunate part is that for whatever reason, they want her gone. It hurts, and it is not fair.

She could be the best worker in the entire organization and it just won't matter. There is no logic or reason to it, it just is.

It might be because she is older, or it might just be that she isn't a favorite of the new administration. Trying to understand it in terms of logic or fairness is fruitless. It just is.

If she isn't willing to fight, then you both need to realize what will happen at the end of the PIP. Perhaps that is the best thing, sometimes it is better to just go on rather than fight. This is particularly true because her attention is elsewhere, with her sick relative. There are only so many fronts that can be fought at the same time.

I wish the best for both of you, and am truly sorry that this is happening to your spouse.

 

[CoolRich59]

I had never even heard of a PIP before this.

In my megacorp, it was called PIP as well - but, we called it "being PIMP'd" and for good reason. As others have said, it was the same with my megacorp: Anyone being put on a performance improvement plan was being "groomed" for termination.

 

[ychuck46]

"Right now we are doing well, but if she loses her job we would definitely struggle. She has been the primary earner in our family for over 20 years. I've been running my own business during that time but my income could never compete with what she earned. I'm almost 56 with no recent "real world" job experience, so I would have a very difficult time finding anything other than minimum wage. That certainly wouldn't pay our bills.

We have some limited retirement savings and an emergency fund of about six months, but that's about it. We're not wealthy by any means but we were set up for a comfortable retirement."

I am struggling with a couple of things here. First you say you have been running your own business for 20 years, but cannot compete with your wife's government pay, and also that you would not qualify for much more than a minimum wage job if you did seek employment. What exactly have you been doing for 20 years? Not trying to be harsh but something doesn't sound right here. If I was running my own business for 20 years and really don't have a lot to show for it, that probably would have ended some time ago.

You also say you have limited savings but you guys were "set up for a comfortable retirement". How, off your wife's pension and SS that cannot be collected for a # of years. Again, not trying to be harsh, but I would say you were not set up for a comfortable retirement.