Diagnose this electrical problem?

[Scrapr]

Is this contagious? I clicked on this thread yesterday.....today MIL breaker won't stay on this morning. Emergency handyman on call. (not me! I'm out of town) Basement power, lights, internet(!) phone. Furnace is down there but seems to be on

Humidifier in basement was causing breaker to trip. All fixed. It's handy to know some "guys" in the biz

 

[NW-Bound]

Besides the tester mentioned, I also have this one:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-NCVT-1SEN/100661787

I touch all the wires and connectors before I work on anything so that I know the power is off. I have a volt meter, but mostly use that to test batteries. The plug in tester and the non-contact tester serve me well for the jobs I do at home like changing out switches and receptacles or hanging a new light fixture.

In my youth, I had a tester-pen like that, but it was simply a little neon bulb with a 1-Megohm resistor in series. I grew up in the 220V world, and wonder if the bulb would be too dim with 110V.

The one above is non-contact, and has electronics to amplify the capacitively-sensed AC voltage. A lot fancier.

Just now look and they still sell the same passive type that I had for less than $5.

The one I had was built into a screwdriver, and your body provides the ground connection. If your shoes insulate too well, or if you are up in the attic on dry rafters, it may not work.

PS. Yes, Walmart got the same type for 2 for $5.

 

[NW-Bound]

I had bad banana connections on another cheap meter brand (probably same manufacturer). Be careful out there!

The bad connection on the HF meter is often the probes. The fine wires inside the cord may be broken off the probe tips, but the insulation holds everything together. Looks fine, but no continuity.

I still have a few of these HF meters, but they have "upgraded" probes now.

 

[Hermit]

The thinggy that you plug into an outlet for testing will give some useful info, all right.

But in the OP's case, if she plugs that into the dead outlet that the paint sprayer initially powered off, what will it tell her other than "yes, this outlet is dead"?

OK, now what?

When you guys talked about a meter, I thought you talked about this Harbor Freight $6.39 meter (it is often given away free with a coupon).

This is all you would need to do serious troubleshooting. You don't need a true RMS voltmeter, or a Fluke. What you need is knowledge. And that's what I was referring to.

I have a Radio Shack meter that looks very similar. I think I paid about $15 for it over 50 years ago. It works fine as long as the leads are high quality and in good shape.

 

[NW-Bound]

No, not 50 years. Of course you are joking.

I remember back around 1980, I was looking at a DVM that was on sale in kit form advertised in Popular Electronics or some magazine like that, and it was expensive at around $100. And it had an LED display, as LCD was not available then.

Darn, my memory is still excellent!

 

[Hermit]

No, not 50 years. Of course you are joking.

I remember back around 1980, I was looking at a DVM that was on sale in kit form advertised in Popular Electronics or some magazine like that, and it was expensive at around $100. And it had an LED display, as LCD was not available then.

Darn, my memory is still excellent!

May have been closer to 40. I am pretty sure it was before I was married which was more than 40 years ago.

 

[HI Bill]

May have been closer to 40. I am pretty sure it was before I was married which was more than 40 years ago.

40-50 years ago, most multi-meters were analog, with a needle, and a reflector! However, the "Fluke 8020A became the first reliable hand-held digital multimeter in 1977 and represented a key point in history of the meter"!

My first digital multimeter was purchased from Radio Shack, circa 1985, and had a really large LCD display.

 

[harley]

Well, while we're waiting for Amethyst to hear from the electrician, let me hijack the thread a bit. I was hoping the collective expert consciousness here could steer me in the right direction.

We have a nice double sink in the kitchen, with a garbage disposal on each side. For whatever reason we've barely used the left side sink, and almost never have turned on the left side garbage disposal in 12 years. DW recently decided we should switch sides, as the right side is showing some wear.

So now when we turn on the garbage disposal on the left side, it works, grinding stuff up as it should. However the motor makes a loud pulsing sound, as opposed to the other one which is a nice smooth hum/buzz. I've felt around inside, no blockages. I looked underneath, and everything seems to be copacetic. I haven't done any more mechanical troubleshooting as I've been pretty busy. But if anybody has run into something like this before I'd like to hear about it.

 

[NW-Bound]

40-50 years ago, most multi-meters were analog, with a needle, and a reflector! However, the "Fluke 8020A became the first reliable hand-held digital multimeter in 1977 and represented a key point in history of the meter"!

My first digital multimeter was purchased from Radio Shack, circa 1985, and had a really large LCD display.

I looked on the Web, and yes, I now remember the Fluke 8020A. It was offered for $169 at the end of 1977 ($715 in today's dollars). Yes, it had a LCD.

And I also found the LED DMM in kit form I talked about. The brand was Sabtronics, and the price was $69.95 in 1980. They also offered an LCD version, at a higher price of $89.95.

It was the $69.95 DMM that I thought of buying, but never did. We just got married, bought our 1st house with a 14% FHA mortgage, and I could not see myself spending on non-essential items while I already had a VOM.

So, my memory was not as good as I claimed, but perhaps I still deserve a C?

 

[Sunset]

Well, while we're waiting for Amethyst to hear from the electrician, let me hijack the thread a bit. I was hoping the collective expert consciousness here could steer me in the right direction.

We have a nice double sink in the kitchen, with a garbage disposal on each side. For whatever reason we've barely used the left side sink, and almost never have turned on the left side garbage disposal in 12 years. DW recently decided we should switch sides, as the right side is showing some wear.

So now when we turn on the garbage disposal on the left side, it works, grinding stuff up as it should. However the motor makes a loud pulsing sound, as opposed to the other one which is a nice smooth hum/buzz. I've felt around inside, no blockages. I looked underneath, and everything seems to be copacetic. I haven't done any more mechanical troubleshooting as I've been pretty busy. But if anybody has run into something like this before I'd like to hear about it.

I've never had one, as they are (IMHO) an unnecessary thing, and sooner or later break. Which then leads to a replacement and the cycle continues.

Plus they scare me due to horror movies

We simply throw the scraps of whatever in the garbage pail before washing.

 

[travelover]

..........Plus they scare me due to horror movies ..............

A friend at work told about his daughter rushing to him to rescue the goldfish that had accidentally slipped out of the sink and into the garbage disposal. He had a hard time seeing it, so he flipped on the light switch over the counter. Oops, wrong switch.

 

[427Vette]

OP, I have not read all of the replies so you may have already got the help that you needed, if not here are my thoughts. You more then likely have GFI outlet that tripped and you just haven’t found it yet. Check around one more time, look especially hard behind the junk you have piled up in the garage. If not there check your mechanical room and outside, maybe even the in the air conditioner disconnect box, there may be one hidden in there. It happens to me all of the time, I will get a service call just like you describe, I try to help the homeowner out and save them a few bucks by telling them what to try first. Most shrug it off and act like it can’t be that easy and they have tried resetting everything already. They think it’s gotta be something super complicated. When I get there I find a GFI outlet buried somewhere and reset it and hand them a bill. It’s worth it to double check.

You should look for anything else that doesn’t have power that may be fed from the same circuit. This will give the electrician some good input. If it’s not a GFI issue it is more then likely a bad connection on another outlet somewhere up stream from the outlet that’s not working. I suggest plugging in a cord and shaking the plug around in various outlets close to
Where the faulty outlet is. Then check power to the outlet. This will help
Locate the connection issue.

Is there a chance that this outlet is on a switch? Sometimes we are asked to put the outside outlets on a switch so they can plug their Christmas lights in and turn them off and on from the house. Try all of your switches in the house close to that area. Look in the closets by the entry doors sometimes we hide them in there because they aren’t used regularly.


Regardless of the issue this more then likely is a simple repair. It sometimes can be difficult and time consuming finding the problem but usually a quick little fix. Thankfully because have seen what electricians charge?!?!?! Good luck!

Make sure to post what you learn.

 

[CRLLS]

I looked on the Web, and yes, I now remember the Fluke 8020A. It was offered for $169 at the end of 1977 ($715 in today's dollars). Yes, it had a LCD.

And I also found the LED DMM in kit form I talked about. The brand was Sabtronics, and the price was $69.95 in 1980. They also offered an LCD version, at a higher price of $89.95.

It was the $69.95 DMM that I thought of buying, but never did. We just got married, bought our 1st house with a 14% FHA mortgage, and I could not see myself spending on non-essential items while I already had a VOM.

So, my memory was not as good as I claimed, but perhaps I still deserve a C?

I built my Sabtronics 2035A DMM kit back then. It is still my go-to meter now ~40 years later. That, and my Simpson 260 for analog work, are my only 2 meters that I trust. My several free HF DMMs are never used.

 

[OldShooter]

... my Simpson 260 for analog work ...

Funny you should mention that. I have been shopping eBay and CraigsList lately for a nice Simpson 260. Digital readouts are great for some things, but that old analog meter needle is good too.

There is a reason that most quartz/digital watches have analog displays. They can be read more quickly and they provide context.

 

[eytonxav]

OP, I have not read all of the replies so you may have already got the help that you needed, if not here are my thoughts. You more then likely have GFI outlet that tripped and you just haven’t found it yet. Check around one more time, look especially hard behind the junk you have piled up in the garage. If not there check your mechanical room and outside, maybe even the in the air conditioner disconnect box, there may be one hidden in there. It happens to me all of the time, I will get a service call just like you describe, I try to help the homeowner out and save them a few bucks by telling them what to try first. Most shrug it off and act like it can’t be that easy and they have tried resetting everything already. They think it’s gotta be something super complicated. When I get there I find a GFI outlet buried somewhere and reset it and hand them a bill. It’s worth it to double check.

Yep!

 

[Car-Guy]

Funny you should mention that. I have been shopping eBay and CraigsList lately for a nice Simpson 260. Digital readouts are great for some things, but that old analog meter needle is good too.

I have both analog and digital meters that I use frequently. My favorite is a 40+ year old Simpson meter like the one pictured below. Hasn't changed much in all that time.

 

[frank]

you can get a good craftsman multi meter for around 10. at christmas time. I have a couple and they work well. I bought one years ago that still works all right, but then about three years ago, they had one that would test capacitors, so now I have two. Item # 03482141000 Model # 82141

 

[NW-Bound]

Out of curiosity I look and agree that the inexpensive Craftsman meter looks a lot better than the HF freebie special.

All this talk about old stuff and searching the Web for ads in old magazines brings me back to the days when you could build a lot of stuff with 741 op amps, 2N2222 and 2N2907 transistors, 1N4000-series diodes, 555 timing IC, 74-TTL and CD4000-series CMOS, etc... Darn, it's been more than 40 years.

Well, you can do the same now, but people would rather play with Arduino, and IoT thinggies.

 

[ERD50]

....

All this talk about old stuff and searching the Web for ads in old magazines brings me back to the days when you could build a lot of stuff with 741 op amps, 2N2222 and 2N2907 transistors, 1N4000-series diodes, 555 timing IC, 74-TTL and CD4000-series CMOS, etc... Darn, it's been more than 40 years.

Well, you can do the same now, but people would rather play with Arduino, and IoT thinggies.

It's not either-or. I've been doing a few different Arduino/IoT thingies (NODE-MCU-ESP8266), and every one required some hardware interface. For me, it's a fun puzzle to do the software, and it's an equally fun (but different) puzzle to design the interfaces. Transistor switches, diode rectifiers, 16 channel analog multiplexers, opto-isolator/couplers, LEDS, voltage converters, over-voltage protection, etc. Fun, fun, fun!

-ERD50

 

[Sunset]

OP, I have not read all of the replies so you may have already got the help that you needed, if not here are my thoughts. You more then likely have GFI outlet that tripped and you just haven’t found it yet. Check around one more time, look especially hard behind the junk you have piled up in the garage. If not there check your mechanical room and outside, maybe even the in the air conditioner disconnect box, there may be one hidden in there. It happens to me all of the time, I will get a service call just like you describe, I try to help the homeowner out and save them a few bucks by telling them what to try first. Most shrug it off and act like it can’t be that easy and they have tried resetting everything already. They think it’s gotta be something super complicated. When I get there I find a GFI outlet buried somewhere and reset it and hand them a bill. It’s worth it to double check.

You should look for anything else that doesn’t have power that may be fed from the same circuit. This will give the electrician some good input. If it’s not a GFI issue it is more then likely a bad connection on another outlet somewhere up stream from the outlet that’s not working. I suggest plugging in a cord and shaking the plug around in various outlets close to
Where the faulty outlet is. Then check power to the outlet. This will help
Locate the connection issue.

Is there a chance that this outlet is on a switch? Sometimes we are asked to put the outside outlets on a switch so they can plug their Christmas lights in and turn them off and on from the house. Try all of your switches in the house close to that area. Look in the closets by the entry doors sometimes we hide them in there because they aren’t used regularly.


Regardless of the issue this more then likely is a simple repair. It sometimes can be difficult and time consuming finding the problem but usually a quick little fix. Thankfully because have seen what electricians charge?!?!?! Good luck!

Make sure to post what you learn.

Great advice.

You reminded me, about a tenant that phoned to tell me the fridge didn't work suddenly.
I had him plug a light in the socket and it didn't light.
Asked him to check the breakers, he said all were fine.
So I phoned an electrician.
The guy goes to the basement and switched off then on the breakers and the plug worked !!
It was the old breaker looking ok, but actually tripped.
The fridge is still there 4 years later.

Incredibly he didn't even bill me, even though he had to drive there and spend 10 minutes fixing it, then drive back. Easily a 1 hour bill.

 

[Moemg]

We had our outside lights replaced . The kind that come on as you pull in . A few days later they were not working so we called the company back . We have a switch in the foyer that we never use well SO turned it off and that controls the lights . The electrician just snickered .

 

[Elbata]

Here's my thinking without reading the other comments: (Though this is probably the purview of an electrician)

1. The electrical run that feeds the outlet that doesn't work-- put a meter and check for voltage. If voltage, could be a disconnected neutral. Pull out inline socket and check wiring. Most likely if bad wire, will be in electrical box, not behind wall.

2. Check that 120V is present at circuit breaker box. Then check downline for 120V. If 120V, then problem is neutral line.

3. Regarding the guy's motor running slow on indoor outlet. First check voltage at outlet before he turns on his motor. Then have him turn on his moter while still checking for voltage. See if there's a voltage drop. If a big drop, problem could be your service. Also can depend on time of day too.

 

[Jerry1]

you can get a good craftsman multi meter for around 10. at christmas time. I have a couple and they work well. I bought one years ago that still works all right, but then about three years ago, they had one that would test capacitors, so now I have two. Item # 03482141000 Model # 82141

I have had the Craftsman 82141 for quite a few years. Mostly used to test batteries, but nice to have around. Also good to diagnose whether or not the power block for a laptop is working and things like that. I don’t do work in the main panel, but I did use it with instructions from an electrician friend so he knew what was wrong before he came out when the transfer switch on my generator wasn’t working.

 

[Just_Steve]

Electrician has been called. Won't be out till Saturday. I'll let the congregation know how it goes.

Wolf, I'm thinking a test meter may be something we should have in the home. I remember my dad (an electrician, but not the home-service kind; he specialized in high voltage construction) using one when I was a kid.

And?

 

[Amethyst]

Update

Several of you have PMd me to find out how it went. I waited till I had time to give a full report.

First, everybody was right. The culprit was a GFI outlet in the laundry room. I had pressed the buttons on that outlet (as on all the others) several times, but seemingly not hard enough.

Now, this was a homeowner's warranty visit (cost to us: $75.00), so the electrician wasn't allowed to work on any other items; but since he'd only been there about 3 seconds, he took some time to go over light switches and outlets with us. He advised us to replace every GFI outlet in the house with ones that light up when tripped. He said we could learn to do this from Youtube, or buy the switches and pay a handyman to install them.

Also, he noticed all our ceiling lights are on dimmers. I dislike them because husband never switches them off completely. Electrician dislikes them because they cause problems. In fact, the home warranty doesn't even cover dimmers, because they cause so many issues. So he advised us to swap out all dimmer switches for regular on/off switches. He said to buy 3-way switches, since dimmers have 3 wires.

Additionally, he said to
*swap out all the incandescent ceiling lights for LED bulbs to save electricity - from the lights themselves, and from the A/C running more due to incandescents' heat output.
*buy only better-quality LEDs, because the ones from Walmart or the dollar store are cr@p.
*even for a non-dimmable switch, you should always buy dimmable LEDs, b/c a power surge can cause non-dimmable LEDs to strobe.

• 
  *there is a difference in the shape of the end of an LED ceiling bulb and an incandescent bulb, which can cause the LED bulb not to make sufficient contact. He had a suggestion for this, but I didn't quite understand it.
  
  So, there it is. Any thoughts?