Diagnose this electrical problem?

[Scrapr]

You should not spray the fence.
You should use a brush. Much better coverage.

Becky Thatcher should use a brush on the fence.

*after doing about 20' of picket fence with a brush I'm hiring out next time

 

[mountainsoft]

To paint our new fence, we hired the same company that installed the fence. They sent a couple of guys with a paint sprayer, which they hooked up to our outdoor outlets.

After quite a few hours, guy knocks on our door and asks if he can hook up his extension cord to an indoor outlet. "When I unplugged the machine [to put more paint in, I assume] I guess I tripped one of your breakers, you'd better check."

I checked both breaker boxes. Nothing had tripped.

I reset all our GFI/GCFI outlets. All are working.

All our external outlets are now dead, including the one our carbon water filter uses.

Is there anything else to be done before I call an electrician on Monday?

Incidentally, the painter said that with his cord plugged into our indoor outlet, the machine's motor runs too slow. He tried to imply there is something wrong with our electricity. I don't know exactly which outlet goes to which circuit, but I'd swear there is nothing else plugged into the circuit that the machine was using. Other things (lamps, a fan) plugged into the same outlet, work OK.

If the entire circuit is dead, you probably tripped a breaker. Although you can usually tell by looking at the breaker, some breakers don't look tripped when they are. Physically flip the breaker off and back on to make sure.

Many outdoor circuits are protected by GFCI breakers. If so, there should be a reset button on the breaker. Turn the breaker off and back on as above, then press the reset button.

You can also check for GFCI outlets on the circuit that may have tripped. As with the breaker, I recommend pressing the Test button first, then press the reset button.

The above process should take care of most simple problems. However, if his sprayer motor was running slow that would tend to indicate a low voltage condition. An undersized extension cord shouldn't cause that unless it's a really long cord (100+ feet or so). The cord probably would have felt warm to the touch if that was the case.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you may have a bad connection somewhere in the circuit. This would increase the resistance, thus lowering the voltage to their sprayer motor. If this is the case, be thankful the circuit died before it started a fire.

I would turn off the breaker and check the wiring at each outlet in the circuit. Preferably pull the outlet from the box so you can check the connections on the outlet and the wiring in the box. Of course, outlets and breakers can fail internally with no visible damage on the outside.

If you've checked the simple solutions above, you'll have to start opening up the panel and outlet boxes and checking voltages to see where the problem is. I assume this is above your skills and comfort level, so you will probably want to call an electrician.

 

[zinger1457]

Sometimes one of the GFCI outlets goes bad, can make it difficult to troubleshoot. Happened in my kitchen not too long ago, after trying everything else just swapped it out and was back up and running.

 

[frank]

I had a situation similar to this with my furnace. the house is 20 years old and the furnace quit working. I checked and no power to the furnace. checked again and found out the ground wire in the main panel was loose and not making a connection. it could be something as simple as that but it takes opening up the panel, and while I know how to do that I would not suggest you do it.

 

[misanman]

Could it be an open neutral? There are inexpensive testers that would diagnose that problem.

 

[Jerry1]

Could it be an open neutral? There are inexpensive testers that would diagnose that problem.

Agree. I have one of these:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-GFCI-Receptacle-Tester-RT210/206517824

Saw the electrical inspector using it when he inspected my house for a certificate of occupancy. Gives a bit of information for not much money. But, the main thing I like about it is that it has a button the tests (trips) gfi receptacles. However, it did make me aware that one of my plugs did not have a ground (which I have since fixed - the ground from another outlet box was disconnected that fed the plug I was working on. I bit of a challenge to find.). It also showed that I did not have a neutral. In that case, plug would seem to test okay, but would immediately trip the gfi breaker in the box. Nice to have electricians for friends. I usually do the grunt work and the make any connections at the box. I won’t go there.

For your last test, try finding the common wire in a three way switch.

 

[wolf]

OP. Interesting story/problem. Like a mystery novel. Have you had a professional figure out the problem. Should be a simple fix. Only happened after power sprayer was used.
So should be easy to track down. Using a "test meter", an electrician should be able to easily check for "lack" of "hot" wire at the outdoor receptacle. And back track from there.
Good luck.

 

[Amethyst]

Electrician has been called. Won't be out till Saturday. I'll let the congregation know how it goes.

Wolf, I'm thinking a test meter may be something we should have in the home. I remember my dad (an electrician, but not the home-service kind; he specialized in high voltage construction) using one when I was a kid.

 

[NW-Bound]

Owning a meter is one thing, learning to use it will take some learning.

I can buy a stethoscope, but I do not know what to listen for. I guess I can learn without getting an MD degree, but it still takes some work.

 

[Ronstar]

Owning a meter is one thing, learning to use it will take some learning.

I can buy a stethoscope, but I do not know what to listen for. I guess I can learn without getting an MD degree, but it still takes some work.

I'm sure that there are plenty of YouTube tutorials on how to use test meters and stethoscopes. Knowing what to do with the resulting data is the tough part.

 

[travelover]

Owning a meter is one thing, learning to use it will take some learning..........

Yes, but that plug in device with different lights is quite useful and easy to understand.

 

[OldShooter]

Owning a meter is one thing, learning to use it will take some learning.

I can buy a stethoscope, but I do not know what to listen for. I guess I can learn without getting an MD degree, but it still takes some work.

The alternative to learning is to remain ignorant and helpless. I have never understood those who have this philosophy. Buy the tool, study what you need to know, accomplish what you need to accomplish, and now you have a new capability.

That said, IMO any homeowner should have a simple tester like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Receptacle-Tester-Klein-Tools-RT210/dp/B01AKX8L0M/ref=sr_1_53 Something like that will tell the OP what she needs to know and it is a lot easier than carrying around a fan.

I do have a professional grade digital multimeter but I can't remember ever using it for troubleshooting house wiring.

 

[HI Bill]

Owning a meter is one thing, learning to use it will take some learning.

I can buy a stethoscope, but I do not know what to listen for. I guess I can learn without getting an MD degree, but it still takes some work.

I own both a stethoscope and a Fluke true RMS multimeter. I'm much better with the multimeter than the stethoscope!

 

[misanman]

The device I have has three lights and the combination tells you what's wrong. Reading them as a binary pattern the diagnosis is:
0 - Open Hot
1 - Open Neutral
2 - Open Ground
3 - Correct
5 - Hot/Ground Reverse
6 - Hot/Neutral Reverse

 

[NW-Bound]

Long-time visitors to the forum know that I am a hard-core DIY'er who dabbles in everything from carpentry like deck work, to car repair like engine rebuild.

I would not discourage anyone from trying something they don't know.

Just giving a heads-up that some investment of time and effort will be needed, beyond shelling out a few bucks for a meter.

 

[JoeWras]

Electrician has been called. Won't be out till Saturday. I'll let the congregation know how it goes.

We'll be praying for you.

Weak GFCIs cause all kinds of problems. I've seen a lot of them get wonky after a few years and do odd things, even after resets. And *especially* after loading them for a while. I killed a relatively new GFCI by running a tiny space heater on it for a few hours.

 

[NW-Bound]

The thinggy that you plug into an outlet for testing will give some useful info, all right.

But in the OP's case, if she plugs that into the dead outlet that the paint sprayer initially powered off, what will it tell her other than "yes, this outlet is dead"?

OK, now what?

When you guys talked about a meter, I thought you talked about this Harbor Freight $6.39 meter (it is often given away free with a coupon).

This is all you would need to do serious troubleshooting. You don't need a true RMS voltmeter, or a Fluke. What you need is knowledge. And that's what I was referring to.

 

[Amethyst]

Well, if our house is going to keep playing these kinds of tricks on us, I guess we'd better go in search of knowledge. Meanwhile, will pay close attention to whatever the electrician does and says. Thanks!

T
This is all you would need to do serious troubleshooting. You don't need a true RMS voltmeter. What you need is knowledge. And that's what I was referring to.

]

 

[Scrapr]

Is this contagious? I clicked on this thread yesterday.....today MIL breaker won't stay on this morning. Emergency handyman on call. (not me! I'm out of town) Basement power, lights, internet(!) phone. Furnace is down there but seems to be on

 

[calmloki]

The thinggy that you plug into an outlet for testing will give some useful info, all right.

But in the OP's case, if she plugs that into the dead outlet that the paint sprayer initially powered off, what will it tell her other than "yes, this outlet is dead"?

OK, now what?

When you guys talked about a meter, I thought you talked about this Harbor Freight $6.39 meter (it is often given away free with a coupon).

This is all you would need to do serious troubleshooting. You don't need a true RMS voltmeter, or a Fluke. What you need is knowledge. And that's what I was referring to.

Meters are good to tell you if you have low voltage - I use one more than the plug in 3 light indicators. The cheap Harbor Freight meter has a spot in my soul. A dark spot. Used one years ago and the @!*/ thing lied to me. Wiring hot is one thing. Thinking you are wiring with dead wires (that aren't) is another. After I stopped buzzing I threw the HF meter away and bought a real one.

 

[ERD50]

The thinggy that you plug into an outlet for testing will give some useful info, all right.

But in the OP's case, if she plugs that into the dead outlet that the paint sprayer initially powered off, what will it tell her other than "yes, this outlet is dead"?

OK, now what?...

Exactly. OP already knows the outlet doesn't work. The plug in tester will only confirm what is already known.

The meter might give more specific information, but I'd bet against it - if the hot is dead, there is no power to the tester to tell you anything additional, all the lights will be out, just like anything you plug in. Same as a tripped breaker.

The only specific info that tester could give in this case is an open Neutral. For any other fault, a lamp plugged in the outlet would still work anyhow. A lamp doesn't care if ground is open or hot-neutral reversed. Those are safety issues, but the lamp would still light.

That said, those plug in testers are still a good investment. You want to know about any of those faults, and get them fixed, they are a safety concern.

I forget off-hand, but there are some combination problems that the plug in tester will say is OK, the faults sort of cancel out for that device. It takes a more rigorous check to cover every possible fault, but these get you the most common problems.

The one area I feel they are weak though, is in testing ground. They only pull enough current to light that little bulb. That is not enough to know you have a solid ground, and you probably need that in case of a real fault (you want it to be able to draw enough current from hot to trip the breaker). Far better is to (carefully!) wire a special tester, a 100 W light bulb wired to the hot (narrow prong) and the other lead to the ground (cylindrical prong), instead of the Neutral (wide prong). Leave the Neutral disconnected.

Plug that in, and the light will only light steady of the ground can handle that higher current. A 1200 watt heater would be an even better test.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Meters are good to tell you if you have low voltage - I use one more than the plug in 3 light indicators. The cheap Harbor Freight meter has a spot in my soul. A dark spot. Used one years ago and the @!*/ thing lied to me. Wiring hot is one thing. Thinking you are wiring with dead wires (that aren't) is another. After I stopped buzzing I threw the HF meter away and bought a real one.

You had the same problem as travelover had, as he described in another thread. That is, the rotary switch may not make contact and the meter lies to you about live wires being dead.

Tell you all the truth, I do use my better meters when I am not too lazy to go fetch them. For checking car batteries, well, I know there's always some juice in the battery, and if it does not read anything, I know to wiggle the knob.

OK. I take back the recommendation of this meter. It's not for the faint of heart.

 

[JoeWras]

I had bad banana connections on another cheap meter brand (probably same manufacturer). Be careful out there!

 

[OldShooter]

I had bad banana connections on another cheap meter brand (probably same manufacturer). Be careful out there!

"Cen-Tech" is a Harbor Freight brand. Tattoo on inside of eyelids: "Do Not Buy Junk Tools"

I have had very good luck with Tenma branded products even though they can be amazingly cheap. https://www.newark.com/tenma/72-13430/dmm-handheld-auto-manual-2000/dp/52AC3271 Thirty bucks!

That said, a meter would probably provide no help with troubleshooting this problem. The electrician will probably use a "fox and hounds" tester to trace the outlets back to their common GFCI. That's still my most probable suspect.

 

[Jerry1]

Besides the tester mentioned, I also have this one:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-NCVT-1SEN/100661787

I touch all the wires and connectors before I work on anything so that I know the power is off. I have a volt meter, but mostly use that to test batteries. The plug in tester and the non-contact tester serve me well for the jobs I do at home like changing out switches and receptacles or hanging a new light fixture.