Done with Bogleheads ... it's a cult

[Gumby]

"You don't have an IPS? Well that tells me a lot."
...

Perhaps you could be kind enough to tell me what an IPS is? I have never heard the term.

 

[tulak]

Perhaps you could be kind enough to tell me what an IPS is? I have never heard the term.

"An Investment policy statement (IPS) is a statement that defines general investment goals and objectives. It describes the strategies that will be used to meet these objectives and contains specific information on subjects such as asset allocation, risk tolerance, and liquidity requirements."

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement

Not a bad idea, especially if you're prone to reacting to market noise.

 

[FindingForward]

How is BH handling the slow decay of customer service at Vanguard? I doesn't make the index funds that they sell any different but it make dealing with Vanguard alot different. Perhaps they have accounts at other brokers and just invest in Vanguard funds with those brokers.

Seeing quite a few threads from BH posters who moved all their assets from Vanguard elsewhere. Then there are those who consider it, but aren't PO'd enough yet to switch. For those with V for multiple decades and/or with multiple account types (taxable, IRA, i401k, inherited, etc), it's a royal pain to think about switching everything over.

 

[Koolau]

Perhaps you could be kind enough to tell me what an IPS is? I have never heard the term.

Heh, heh, I thought I was the only one who didn't know. Thanks for asking for us.

 

[Phroig]

Perhaps you could be kind enough to tell me what an IPS is? I have never heard the term.

Irritable Powell Syndrome?

 

[NW-Bound]

How is BH handling the slow decay of customer service at Vanguard? I doesn't make the index funds that they sell any different but it make dealing with Vanguard alot different. Perhaps they have accounts at other brokers and just invest in Vanguard funds with those brokers.

As mentioned, I opened some accounts at Vanguard some years ago with the intention of testing the water before I transferred in more money. The short interaction with them was underwhelming, so these accounts are still only a couple of percent of my portfolio. I do however buy Vanguard ETFs in my non-Vanguard larger accounts.

About IPS, I first read about it on this forum, and suspect that it was carried over by some posters from BH forum. Not a bad idea.

I always have mine, and it is in my head and not written out. "Don't follow the crowd to buy high and sell low". That's it.

 

[aja8888]

Heh, heh, I thought I was the only one who didn't know. Thanks for asking for us.

I knew, but I don't have one. I guess I should be embarrassed?

 

[Exchme]

I find it humorous that folks are not mentioning that OP is angry that his post at BH was removed for being trolling.

Their site is heavily moderated to keep posts actionable, personal as well as free of politics, religion and idle rants, speculation and trolling. They try to keep it a place for folks to come and learn and not get pulled into arguments that have no resolution.

BH is filled with lawyers, accountants, mutual fund workers, financial academics and authors, plus of course regular folks. OP accuses them of being a "cult". It would be a strange "cult" in that it is based on folks' shared experience plus a mountain of research that high fees and portfolio complexity makes others rich, not you. They have the crazy idea that you should make a plan, keep your investments simple, pay low fees and not fall into the trap of believing you can outsmart everyone else in the market. I think OP will find a lot of overlap on that thinking here.

Personally, I find the discussion there can get rather dry and academic, so mostly I go there to see if there is something new to learn and come here for a more relaxed atmosphere to share experiences and chat.

 

[Montecfo]

They do not keep it free of religion, as long as it is the right religion.

Sure, having a plan and understanding the impact of fees are good ideas.

But there is more than one way to skin a cat and a forum that fails to acknowledge that is both boring and wrong.

 

[foxfirev5]

Around the time I joined here (March 2009) I was also on BH. However I went a little overboard on criticizing Saint Jack when he said " when you can't lose anymore you need to sell" Ironically right at the bottom of the market. The rationalizations from the BH crowd were hilarious. "Staying the course also means that steering corrections are required" was my favorite.

Anyway, to both our benefit, I was thrown off the forum. I'm just grateful that despite my transgressions I've not yet met a similar fate here.

 

[tulak]

I disagree. If you’re looking for a site about buying individual stocks, then that’s the wrong forum. If you post on that topic - unless you’re a newbie - then it’s pretty much trolling.

There are great posters there and overall, there’s a significant public benefit. Most people are better served keeping their investments simple.

 

[Gumby]

"An Investment policy statement (IPS) is a statement that defines general investment goals and objectives. It describes the strategies that will be used to meet these objectives and contains specific information on subjects such as asset allocation, risk tolerance, and liquidity requirements."

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement

Not a bad idea, especially if you're prone to reacting to market noise.

Sounds a lot like work to me.

 

[tulak]

Sounds a lot like work to me.

Same. But if you find it helpful, go for it.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I completely agree.

HOWEVER - when you have a finance website, banning discussion which references the US Treasury and Federal Reserve is similar, in my view, to amputating the legs of a track and field star.

And links to non-political government sites like the Social Security Trustee's Report. We frequently discuss here when to take SS. Planning for the trust fund running out is simply a fact and not an opinion, so what is in that report is a highly relevant factor in retirement planning. That is the default path we are on.

Paying attention to the Fed meeting minutes helped me avoid big losses in bond funds this year.

 

[foxfirev5]

And links to non-political government sites like the Social Security Trustee's Report. We frequently discuss here when to take SS. Planning for the trust fund running out is simply a fact and not an opinion, so what is in that report is a highly relevant factor in retirement planning. That is the default path we are on.

Paying attention to the Fed meeting minutes helped me avoid big losses in bond funds this year.

I enjoy what this forum represents. Sometimes disagreement but the facts eventually prevail. No endless debate so the Mods are doing their job. Actually a much higher level of awareness for me than other censored forums.

 

[TheWizard]

That IPS thing is a psychological crutch for some folks who may have tendency to invest whichever way the wind blows. Idea is define what you will after a 30% drop in the s&p500, etc.

I didn't bother with an IPS.
I just put certain target AA data on a yellow stickie...

 

[Chuckanut]

Irritable Powell Syndrome?

That can be treated if you know the cult's secret handshake.

 

[friar1610]

Irritable Powell Syndrome?

That’s what holders of bond funds get just before each interest rate increase announced by the Fed Chairman.

 

[njhowie]

I find it humorous that folks are not mentioning that OP is angry that his post at BH was removed for being trolling.

OP is not angry whatsoever. He simply came to the realization that BH is not the place for him. The post removal for referencing the Fed and having it cited for "Economic Trolling" was the last straw. Simple as that. Plenty of things in retirement to do where that time is better spent.

 

[jollystomper]

I am fine with BH. I like the focus on keeping investing simple. That philosophy helped me tremendously when I first came across it year ago. I review the BH forum stuff there only slightly less than here.

Before joining a forum, I read the rules. If I can live with them, fine. If not, I do not join and participate. I doubt there is any forum whose policy I agree with totally; I just evaluate if my disagreement is a conviction or a preference, and take it from there.

 

[njhowie]

OP accuses them of being a "cult". It would be a strange "cult" in that it is based on folks' shared experience plus a mountain of research that high fees and portfolio complexity makes others rich, not you.

There's much more to it than that in me labeling it a cult. It's my view from having seen how cults operate, and the mode of operation of how the social order works on BH.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

OP is not angry whatsoever. He simply came to the realization that BH is not the place for him. The post removal for referencing the Fed and having it cited for "Economic Trolling" was the last straw. Simple as that. Plenty of things in retirement to do where that time is better spent.

The posts on what the Fed is doing get censored and then there are pages and pages of posts on why are my bond funds dropping.

 

[Marita40]

I ignore the investing part of Bogleheads but find their personal consumer issue forum useful at times. I skim it every so often.

 

[JBTX]

Been a fairly active member over at BH for around 5 years. I’m pretty new to here. Even though I have a financial background and was reasonably well versed on many investment and personal finance topics, I’ve learned quite a bit over there. They have a diverse group of people that are professionals in finance, 401ks, estate planning and all kinds of other stuff. I learned how to buy more ibonds over there (via external links ), got good ideas to help my wife’s company set up new 401k, was able to learn some things regarding estate planning that a lot of lawyers aren’t even well versed in and redoing estate plan, even found an estate planning attorney via a reference. I learned how to play credit card and bank bonus games. I expanded my knowledge on the subject on the decision criteria of Roth conversions. Expanded my knowledge of the “hump” - SS impact on marginal tax rates. The board pushed me along to get rid some of my higher fee funds. Helped me refinance to lower rates. The board has easily helped me save or earn tens of thousands of dollars, perhaps more.

There is a wide variety of opinions. Countless posts and posters extolling the benefits of paying off a 2% mortgage, and a very active long running thread advocating leveraging both stocks and bonds to juice returns. It is all over the board. That is fine with me because I like to pick and choose what I deem helpful.

It is tightly moderated and sometimes interesting threads get shut down, often when discussing macro economic subjects. It is frustrating but what I’ve been told is that inevitably such threads veer towards political and turn into pissing contests. A thread debating monetary policy requires a lot more moderation and intervention than “should I pay off my mortgage”. It is unfortunate but it is there sandbox and their rules.

 

[big-papa]

Been a fairly active member over at BH for around 5 years. I’m pretty new to here. Even though I have a financial background and was reasonably well versed on many investment and personal finance topics, I’ve learned quite a bit over there. They have a diverse group of people that are professionals in finance, 401ks, estate planning and all kinds of other stuff. I learned how to buy more ibonds over there (via external links ), got good ideas to help my wife’s company set up new 401k, was able to learn some things regarding estate planning that a lot of lawyers aren’t even well versed in and redoing estate plan, even found an estate planning attorney via a reference. I learned how to play credit card and bank bonus games. I expanded my knowledge on the subject on the decision criteria of Roth conversions. Expanded my knowledge of the “hump” - SS impact on marginal tax rates. The board pushed me along to get rid some of my higher fee funds. Helped me refinance to lower rates. The board has easily helped me save or earn tens of thousands of dollars, perhaps more.

There is a wide variety of opinions. Countless posts and posters extolling the benefits of paying off a 2% mortgage, and a very active long running thread advocating leveraging both stocks and bonds to juice returns. It is all over the board. That is fine with me because I like to pick and choose what I deem helpful.

It is tightly moderated and sometimes interesting threads get shut down, often when discussing macro economic subjects. It is frustrating but what I’ve been told is that inevitably such threads veer towards political and turn into pissing contests. A thread debating monetary policy requires a lot more moderation and intervention than “should I pay off my mortgage”. It is unfortunate but it is there sandbox and their rules.

This is close to my view as well. I've been on this form and BH since around 2013 or so. Yes, there are the more boglehead-than-thou types who constantly beat the "3-fund is the end all be all". And there are several VERY REPITITOUS posters who are extremely annoying. There will always be the endless arguments about international or no, factors, tilting, the value of CAPE, etc. Fine, though I can't understand why the people who want no part of any of those things continue to rail about them. Sometimes it's because "we might confuse newbies". Sure, these are the same newbies that never read the wiki in the first place before posting.

But if one actually goes to their wiki to understand what is actually the boglehead philosophy vs. what many posters there (and here) think it is, it's pretty simple and hard to argue with and leaves quite a bit of wiggle room.. Hint: it says nothing about needing to own the 3-fund portfolio, it says nothing about holding bonds vs. bond funds. No comments on factors CAPE, tilting or any of the other things I listed above.

Well usually not. Apparently some people believe that the best way to make a point is to declare that what ever their sparring partner is doing or likes is "market timing"

Still I read the forum daily and occasionally post there. There are several posters there that pretty much always make me sit up and take notice and I still learn quite a bit from them. Some are in the finance industry, some are academics. I generally start a session by doing a search on their usernames to see what they've been posting about recently. The rest is noise, though I still scan through the current topics to see if there is anything new that I might be interested in.

I actually like that they're more heavily moderated. No politics, no healthcare advice, no speculating about what congress may/may not do. Much of the moderation action on the forum comes directly from forum members reporting something against the rules. And I understand that many of the complaints are often about a lack of civility. At any rate, the moderators are still human and sometimes, in my opinion, they get it wrong - like when they decided to drop polls.

I do like both forums, but for different reasons. When they happen, I like the technical discussions over there - as an engineer with a decent math background I find it interesting. Over here, I see a lot of good, solid practical advice about a bunch of subjects.

I hope neither forum becomes the more like the wild-west that the Reddit forums can be...

By the way I also occasionally read the forum on rationalreminder.ca as well. You have to sign up for it to even lurk. I see a lot of BH'ers and former BH'ers there - at least the ones that are using the same userid's that they use on BH.

Doesn't need to be either/or. "and" works just fine for me.

cheers,
Big-Papa