Gas Line to Pool Heater

[Katsmeow]

Thanks for all the info. It is very helpful. I need to go out and look at the gas meter.

If she's got safety worries about a 1" natural gas line that is under less than 1 psi of pressure (after the regulator/meter), I'm guessing the idea of a couple hundred pounds of liquid propane in proximity to her dwelling is probably a no-go. But, maybe not.

Honestly, I don't know anything about the gas line to the pool and what size it is. I consider gas to have two main safety concerns. Explosion and carbon monoxide. I think the first is less of a concern than the second. My thought was that if any natural gas came into the house then there was a carbon monoxide risk. If no gas came into the house, then there was no risk (well, theoretically there could be from leaving the car running the garage but we never do that). I don't think it is a dealbreaker risk but if it was one that I didn't have so much the better. At a prior house there was no natural gas available at all. It was an all electric house (it was that way when we bought it). We did have a fireplace and it was serviced from a small propane tank on the side porch (we never used it as I don't like fireplaces).

OP lives in TX and needs a pool heater ?

I actually rarely use the pool heater to heat the entire pool. However, I need to pool heater to heat the spa in the pool. I do use that. And you have to heat the water for the spa.

Look into a small solar outfit for the pool only-they are very popular and inexpensive. Makes sense: sunny days are when you most use the pool!

I did look at some options for the pool other than gas, but the problem is the spa. It needs to be able to heat up relatively quickly when we use the spa in the colder times of the year. While I might not use the spa when it was really cold, I could easily use it when the outside temp was in the 50s.

You should have a shut-off valve for the gas right where it enters the house. Sometimes it's co-located with a low pressure regulator. First verify your pool heater lights off correctly. Next, try shutting off this valve, then testing to see if the pool heater will light off. If it does, then the pool heater is serviced with it's own unique line, separate from the house.

Also, the gas line is usually some sort of plastic. When it is buried in the ground, a 'tracer' wire is buried with it. This is usually a copper wire that can be detected with a metal detector. You may try borrowing a metal detector and searching for a gas line that runs through the underground between the gas meter and the pool heater.

Thank you. This is very specific and helpful.

If you've got natural gas service, it's going to cost you dearly for a monthly hookup charge just to have the service for the pool. ....

If you have natural gas service, why would you switch to electric heat pump and a tankless electric hot water heater? Natural gas is more efficient and feels so much warmer. Use enough hot water with electric tankless, and you might see the lights dim in the neighborhood (LOL!) It might take another breaker box to hook up 4 220 electrical circuits (8 breakers) for the water heater--$1000? $2000? And does your current electrical service even have enough unused space for the heat pump? My box is full.

We already pay for the gas hookup. During warmer months we use gas only for the hot water heater and the pool heater and we pay about $26 or so for that relatively minimal usage. If we got rid of the gas hot water heater I think we would spend close to the same amount.

As for why go electric. I have talked to some HVAC people and researched it in this area. Roughly 80% of new systems here are heat pumps. Some HVAC people say that it is getting to be over 90% of new installations. Given the predominance of heat pump systems I am fine with the heat pump system. I had an all electric house in the past (not a heat pump so winter electric bills were quite expensive) and I liked it. I didn't have to worry about carbon monoxide or other natural gas safety concerns. I am not rabid about it. My last house had gas heat and had a gas tankless water heater. They were fine. But, if I am doing something new I think I want to go with what is commonly done in this area. We had a gas tankless water heater with 4 people in our house and never had a problem. My research says that electric ones are fine for 2 person houses which we have. I once had a electric hybrid water heater with a tank and I liked it as well. However, we are very space constrained so I want to go tankless.

I understand about the additional electrical. We have already talked to an electrician. We have no slots left in our electrical panel and are going to be doing some significant remodeling. We will have to get a sub-panel at the very least no matter what. So that is an expense we will have even if we get a conventional AC and natural gas furnace.

"We are going to be replacing our HVAC system and water heater and probably will end up with a heat pump system and tankless electric water heater. "

Electric lowers your costs over NG? I'd be surprised.

Did I say that it lowers my costs? I don't believe I ever said that.

I am also surprised switching from NG to electric would be cost savings? You could put a gas fired tankless water heater and save a bunch of cost running heavy electric wiring to the tankless water heater. Since the house has A/C already the change to a heat pump for heating is not going to require major rewiring. However heat pump house heating require a backup system, called emergency heat, that is either going to be NG or giant electric resistance heat coils. So it might be a lot less cost to keep NG as the backup heat system for the house. Typically backup is used when temps get below the crossover temp when heat pump loses efficiency and ability to make nice warmer heat. New heat pumps can work good down to 20F, but the air coming out the vents can be only slightly above the room set temp. Good heat pump can make a 60F difference from the outside, so 20F means 80F heat out of the vents.

If OP is determined to go electric, there are also heat pump pool heaters that are quite efficient. That is a way to completely eliminate all NG needs for the house and pool.

I never said anything about cost.... I am sure I will do the heat pump. We don't often get down to 20 here. I am sure that is why the vast majority of new systems here are heat pumps. I am still not sure if I will get a gas tankless or electric tankless system. I want tankless because with the remodeling we are doing we don't have room for a large tank. I would consider a gas tankless system IF I can't get sufficient hot water from an electric tankless. But we fit within the group that usually can -- 2 people without high hot water usage. It is possible that I could change my mind in which case the pool heater question is a moot point.

Living in Texas (near Houston) I like natural gas for heating, cooking and hot water. Converting to electric will be costly and when the next hurricane or big storm takes out the power, you won't have hot water, your stove, or house heat.

In most instances even if you have gas you lose those things when your power goes out. Modern gas furnaces usually use electricity for electric ignition.

 

[gerntz]

Did I say that it lowers my costs? I don't believe I ever said that.

I don't believe you said it either. I just assumed that since I don't understand why the conversion to electric otherwise.

 

[Katsmeow]

I don't believe you said it either. I just assumed that since I don't understand why the conversion to electric otherwise.

We need a new HVAC system as ours is very old and energy efficient. We bought this house less than a year ago. The vast majority of new systems in our area are heat pumps. I researched them and feel comfortable with doing what most people are doing in this area. For this climate I do think this is more energy efficient.

Since I am switching the HVAC to a heat pump I looked at whether to also switch the hot water heater. We are about to do a major remodel that will repurpose the area where the gas water heater is located. It makes sense given our space considerations to go tankless (our last house had existing tankless when we bought it and we liked it). Since we are doing the heat pump for the HVAC I am looking into possibly an electric tankless instead of a gas tankless. I think we fit in the small group of people (2 person household where an electric would work. By doing that we avoid the safety concerns of natural gas in the house. While I don't think those concerns are a dealbreaker, alleviating would be a nice to have. If we lived in a climate where a heat pump was not tenable then it would be a different situation. But, we don't.

 

[samclem]

As for why go electric. I have talked to some HVAC people and researched it in this area. Roughly 80% of new systems here are heat pumps. Some HVAC people say that it is getting to be over 90% of new installations.

Just to mention this: I have no doubt that 90% of new installations are electric. Running a gas line to a new housing development is expensive, and fitting the initial flue/vents, condensation drains, etc takes some work. Installing a heat pump is easy--really no significant additional labor compared to installing the air conditioner that is aready going to be installed. So, builders love heat pumps because they reduce their costs, and that's why they install them rather than gas furnaces in many new homes.

If given the chance, most HVAC contractors would prefer to install a heat pump (on new or retrofit/replacement jobs): they are more expensive than a furnace and the contractor doesn't need to deal with a separate trade (a plumber). So, a consumer asking an HVAC dealer for a recommendation ("Should I replace my furnace or go with a heat pump?") is unlikely to be talking to a disinterested party.

From the point of view of (most) homeowners, a gas furnace has many advantages. It costs less to run, it is more reliable (fewer parts to break, and none are as expensive as the compressor in a heat pump), the equipment lasts longer, and the heat is more comfortable (warmer from the ducts).

Katsmeow, I think you've made up your mind, and that's great. The above is supplied for anyone facing a similar choice.

 

[Katsmeow]

OK, so I went out and looked at the gas meter. The image is below. To me it looks like the gas line goes to the meter and then it splits to go in the house and then goes underground to the pool. There is a cutoff on the pipe going to the meter and one of the pipe going to the pool. If I understand that correctly, then I can cut off gas to both the house and the pool or can cut it off to the pool only. I don't see a way there to cut off gas to the house and then allow it to go to the pool. I am assuming there would be someway to do that. I guess I will talk to a plumber about it.

If given the chance, most HVAC contractors would prefer to install a heat pump (on new or retrofit/replacement jobs): they are more expensive than a furnace and the contractor doesn't need to deal with a separate trade (a plumber). So, a consumer asking an HVAC dealer for a recommendation ("Should I replace my furnace or go with a heat pump?") is unlikely to be talking to a disinterested party.

....

Katsmeow, I think you've made up your mind, and that's great. The above is supplied for anyone facing a similar choice.

I am leaning pretty heavily to the heat pump, but I am still considering options and I could change my mind if our further discussions with contractors give us new information.. We have talked to a couple of HVAC contractors. One of the is not a heat pump fan and that has actually been a reason that we have thought about this so much (we got his quote last summer). Nonetheless, he says that about 80% of his customers want heat pumps and he installs them. So, basically customer driven.

Another contractor we talked to didn't really advocate for one over the other. He gave us quotes for both. The heat pump is a little more money.

 

[samclem]

OK, so I went out and looked at the gas meter. The image is below. To me it looks like the gas line goes to the meter and then it splits to go in the house and then goes underground to the pool. There is a cutoff on the pipe going to the meter and one of the pipe going to the pool. If I understand that correctly, then I can cut off gas to both the house and the pool or can cut it off to the pool only. I don't see a way there to cut off gas to the house and then allow it to go to the pool. I am assuming there would be someway to do that. I guess I will talk to a plumber about it.

That's the way I see it, too. If you truly want to keep natural gas out of your house, he could install another shutoff valve between the meter and your brick wall (with a union, since there's no way to get it threaded on otherwise). ETA: If you do install another shutoff valve, you might want to consider one that can be locked shut (it will have a hole for a padlock). If you decide to stop using your gas appliances (but keep the piping in place), you'll want to be sure no one accidentally or deliberately turns the gas on again. After years of disuse/abandonment/possible interior modifications, etc, you don't want pressure back on that line without your knowledge. Get a good lock and put a cover over it so there's at least >some< hope it will function a few decades from now.

Another contractor we talked to didn't really advocate for one over the other. He gave us quotes for both. The heat pump is a little more money.

You may want to factor in that your compressor will live longer if it isn't used year-round. I'm sure it gets quite a workout already for during the cooling season.

 

[CardsFan]

OP, based on the photo of the meter, I am guessing your main gas shut off, for the house, is in the house. That makes sense for accessibility. If you want to have no gas entering the house it should be no problem for a plumber to remove the tee at the meter exit, cap the line to your house, and then re-connect the meter only to the pool gas line.

EDIT: Cross posted with samclem. An out side shut off valve would also work, but capping the pipe guarantees no gas to the house. When I was working, we called all valves "controlled leakage devices".

 

[Katsmeow]

ETA: If you do install another shutoff valve, you might want to consider one that can be locked shut (it will have a hole for a padlock). If you decide to stop using your gas appliances (but keep the piping in place), you'll want to be sure no one accidentally or deliberately turns the gas on again.

That is an excellent point. We would keep the piping in place but I certainly wouldn't want to have a possibility of it being unknowingly (to us) turned on. CardsFan has a good idea.

If you want to have no gas entering the house it should be no problem for a plumber to remove the tee at the meter exit, cap the line to your house, and then re-connect the meter only to the pool gas line.

EDIT: Cross posted with samclem. An out side shut off valve would also work, but capping the pipe guarantees no gas to the house. When I was working, we called all valves "controlled leakage devices".

Thanks. I like the removal of the tee and the capping the line to the house. I don't want any surprises....