Horrifying

BigMoneyJim said:
I made a donation to the A.R.C. relief fund today. It was a tough decision for me as I've spent so much time getting into the position I'm in and I'm not FI yet, but I'm certainly more capable of handling financial setbacks than many--maybe even most--Americans.

Yep, I did the same on Tuesday. Keep thinking maybe a part of my donation will end up helping out unclemick & his family.

Speaking of donations, saw a blurb on the news tonight that contributions were flowing in to relief agencies at three times the rate they did for the tsunami.

REW
 
I hope it goes beyond partisanship. I see this as a leadership issue, bottom line, W isn't a natural leader.
 
We're talking about people who not only had no financial plan, but also had no life plan.  It's not like there was no warning there was a major storm coming.  Still, they couldn't think of any kind of exit strategy for themselves.  They say businesses that fail to plan, plan to fail.  Well, the same is true for individuals.

I would think even if I were as poor as poor can be, I would at least try hitching a ride, getting together with a few other poor people and stealing a bus, getting on a bike and riding away, or some other creative method of evacuating.

That said, there may still be some people who are disabled or too old to get out.  Those people need government help to get out, and for that I blame poor government planning.  Why the government didn't start offering free transportation out of the danger zone, I don't know.

Bottom line is that you save yourself because you can't assume someone else, or much less, the government is going to save you.
 
I agree ... I'm disgusted with what we're seeing.  We look like a third world country, and this crap about this disaster being beyond imagination ... not only illogical, but a bald-faced lie.

This is indeed about management, at all levels, by all stripes of politicians and bureaucrats.  There should be some damn hard questions and investigations into this mess ... and, excellent point above ... if this is how we react when we see a major storm coming for days, aimed at a location that has been studied ad infinitum regarding the risks of such an event ... how are we going to react if we are attacked again, but this time on a larger scale?

Besides the age-old lesson of working to avoid poverty ... another lesson in never trusting government.

See http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050901/D8CBNMA88.html for some additional fodder.
 
Here's that show I mentioned -- it's a NOVA episode that aired just last January on PBS. If you click on "watch the segment" and view the excerpt, you'll think the show's creators had a crystal ball. Outlines the whole New Orleans scenario and the reasons whyit happened.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3204/02.html
 
This administration has done so many things wrong for so long:  

:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: (That's 4 rant symbols from someone who you know if very liberal.  If you are a knee-jerk Republican, that should be fair warning that I am about to say things that you do not want to hear.  You may be best advised to go back to your TV and turn up FOX News really loud rather than read this.)

Give aways to the rich when we had nothing to give.  Who pays the bills?

An expensive invasion of Iraq based on lies when we were already in an expensive war against terrorism.  Who pays the bills?

Send our National Guard away to a foriegn country leaving no one here to help in the case of a natural disaster.  Who provides relief support?

Dismantle existing programs to prevent disasters.  Who pays for recovery?

Ignore -- no attack -- the scientific community's warnings about energy shortages, need to conserve, and global warming.  Who pays the price?

We can't pay for the aid that's needed.  We are running the largest deficit in history.  Energy supplies are limited because we are in a holy war with the people who control it.  And we have limited National Guard troops to send in because they are fighting the holy war.  Anyone who didn't see some sort of disaster coming hasn't been paying attention.  But it is horrible to see it happening to these people in our own country.  

I'm angry at the Bush administration, but they couldn't have pulled this off without the support of the angry white male party that thinks "no tax is a good tax".  They benefit from living in the richest country in the history of the world but think they don't have to pay for it.  They supported wars without thinking they had to pay for them.  They supported tax breaks for the rich without cutting spending.  They supported sending our National Guard oversees without a plan to bring them home or an alternative for National disasters.

Now we all pay. :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
 
A little silly to lay all of this at the feet of the Bush admin, but that is always the response from some ... why don't we first get some straight answers as to why these states were so unprepared before we cravenly use this as another Republican Vs Democrat opportunity ... both parties stink, and Bush has made plenty of mistakes ... as did Clinton. And, oh yes ... since government has failed again, the solution is ... more government. Yea, that will solve all of our problems ...


Just heard the head of FEMA, Michael Brown, opine that their relief efforts in the stricken areas are much better and faster than the relief to the tsunami victims ... well bozo, I sure hope so.  This is supposed to be the friggin' USA, not a third world country ... but you can't tell that by watching the news this evening.  Incredible.
 
I think if we did a post-mortem on this event, we'd find that:

1) You can't reasonably protect a below-sea-level city from a Cat 5 hurricane.

2) A lot of people don't evacuate after a warning because they can't. Estimates are that there are 55,000 disabled people in NOLA. Add to that the number who stick around for other reasons (wolf crying, stupidity, emergency personnel, gamblers, etc), and you get over 250,000 who probably stuck around.

3) It's virtually impossible to feed, heal, and evacuate 250,000 people from an underwater city with limited transportation, communications, utilities, etc.

Bottom-line: natural disasters happen. This won't be the last. Not a damn thing you can do about them except to stop building cities in risky areas.

Is there anybody here who lives in a risk-free locale? I've got a fault line a mile from me, an active volcano 50 miles from me, and my house sits 100 ft back from a cliff that is slowly sloughing-off into the ocean. I can empathize with these risk-takers.
 
Charles said:
A little silly to lay all of this at the feet of the Bush admin, but that is always the response from some ...
You might think that at first.  Clearly, W didn't create the huricane.  But he had everything to do with our ability to respond to it.

Charles said:
. . . why don't we first get some straight answers as to why these states were so unprepared . . .
These are two of the poorest States in the Union and this is one of the poorest areas in the country.  While the region of devestation is huge, it represents less than 1% of the GDP.  I would be willing to bet that a disproportionate number of the troops in Iraq are from this area too.  Yeah . . . let's blame the states.  ;)

Charles said:
. . .before we cravenly use this as another Republican Vs Democrat opportunity ... both parties stink, and Bush has made plenty of mistakes ... as did Clinton. 
I have said nothing in support of Clinton or the Democrats.  Although I don't know what Clinton has to do with this, I don't recall his administration running the largest deficit in history.  In fact, I recall a surplus.  Why are there so many knee-jerk Republicans who keep missing this very important point.  Pay your bills.  You can't keep giving away taxes to the rich and spending money on unjustified wars.   GWB needs to learn how to pay his bills.  Otherwise, we won't have money and resources when we need them. :eek:

Charles said:
And, oh yes ... since government has failed again, the solution is ... more government.  Yea, that will solve all of our problems ...
 Who said more government?  I'm in favor of less brain-dead government.  

What's your solution?  Let industry solve our problems?  They have a great track record of efficiency, honesty and public interest.  :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:


Charles said:
Just heard the head of FEMA, Michael Brown, opine that their relief efforts in the stricken areas are much better and faster than the relief to the tsunami victims ... well bozo, I sure hope so.  This is supposed to be the friggin' USA, not a third world country ... but you can't tell that by watching the news this evening.  Incredible.
We're out of money.  We're out of oil.  We're out of troops.  W is successfully guiding the US into third world status.   :'(
 
I've been in tornado-prone areas most of my life. Not much warning but a much smaller area affected and these days we generally get a minute or more warning which could very well be enough.

A blog update from the site I posted earlier:

Thursday, September 1st, 2005
10:46 pm
The Real News
The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. I don't know what you're hearing in the mainstream media or in the press conferences from the city and state officials, but here is the truth:

"Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is his story as told to me moments ago. I took notes while he talked and then I asked some questions:

Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area.

It's been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear.

Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them.

There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like -- all of them in dire straights.

Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids.

The people are so desperate that they're doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians.

The buses never stop.

Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area -- Saulet Condos -- once they tried to get cars from there... well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back.

He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific."

He says it's the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.



I have "Bigfoot"'s phone number and will gladly give it to any city or state official who would like to tell him how everything is under control.

Addendum: Bigfoot just called to report that "they" (the authorities) are cleaning up the dead bodies at the Convention Center right now.

I know disasters happen and loss of life was practially unavoidable, but something is wrong when 4.5 days after the hurricane the area is still in anarchy. Sitting here in the midwest with the price of gas being my biggest complaint I don't know where things went wrong, but something should have been done better to get more people out (EDIT: after the flooding), prevent rapes and support large refugee camps.

EDIT: Source URL: http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/42309.html

EDIT: An amusing comment by "jenny_r " in the feedback section: "You know, we should have gotten the Israeli prime-minster to organize this evacuation. Everybody would have been out by Tuesday."
 
BigMoneyJim said:
I know disasters happen and loss of life was practially unavoidable, but something is wrong when 4.5 days after the hurricane the area is still in anarchy. Sitting here in the midwest with the price of gas being my biggest complaint I don't know where things went wrong, but something should have been done better to get more people out (EDIT: after the flooding), prevent rapes and support large refugee camps.

I really don't know what the numbers are at this point, but let's go with the estimate of 250,000 people who remained in the city. I think we've deployed about 150,000 troups in Iraq. If we pulled them all back here, and they each saved two people, NOLA would be in good shape. Can you imagine redploying the entire armed forces in a 4-day period? This disaster is simply too big. In the end, we will hear thousands of hellish stories.
 
wabmester said:
I really don't know what the numbers are at this point, but let's go with the estimate of 250,000 people who remained in the city. I think we've deployed about 150,000 troups in Iraq. If we pulled them all back here, and they each saved two people, NOLA would be in good shape. Can you imagine redploying the entire armed forces in a 4-day period? This disaster is simply too big. In the end, we will hear thousands of hellish stories.

I'm thinking more along the lines of 20-bus convoys with armed escorts to get the refugee camp people out of NOLA to a place with fresh water, sanitation, medicine, climate control and lack of rotting corpses lying about. Much better than a 2:1 life saved ratio I think. I'm also thinking they could've conquered the anarchy by now so those who have working transportation aren't in fear of their lives to use it.

I'm not going to nit-pick helicoptering people off rooftops at the moment; I'm heartbroken at tens of thousands of congregated, sheltered people in danger of dying from filth and anarchy.
 
nuisance said:
I say get him out there. When he sees with his own eyes how miserable people are, perhaps he gets to thinking about those choppers etc that are always the background to his speeches.

Plus, maybe someone will ge lucky and shoot down the right chopper this time...
 
Gee, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta made it into New Orleans Charity Hospital this morning (it's 5am PST). Why can't the National Guard make it in:confused: This is f%^king outrage! Bush would rather protect the oil in Iraq then help the hurricane ravaged people in this country.

Now there are explosions happenning in New Orleans. CNN is saying there's a chemical fire. :'(
 
There are a LOT of chemical plants in southern LA because of the proximity to the oil and gas infrastructure (raw materials). I'm surprised there have not been more problems. I can't imagine the loss of life if, say, a tank of cumene exploded with the wind blowing toward NO. I sure hope that the owners of those plants did a good job of shutting them down and securing them. Thus far, this appears to be the case.
 
http://tinyurl.com/74573

An exasperated-sounding Mayor C. Ray Nagin did not hold back his anger in an interview with a New Orleans radio station.

"I keep hearing that this is coming, that is coming," he said in reference to federal aid. "And my answer to that today is b.s. - where is the beef?"

"Let's figure out the biggest crisis in the history of our country," he added. After Sept. 11, he said, the president was given "unprecedented powers" to send aid to New York. The same response should be applied in this case, too, he said.

Aid was being promised, too, from overseas. Australia said it was giving $7.6 million to the American Red Cross and sending a team of 20 disaster experts to the United States. Financial aid was also scheduled to come from Japan, Sri Lanka and a handful of other countries.


I am glad these people will be getting this aid but why are we getting aid from Sri Lanka when almost nothing has come from our govt.

I am too angry for words.


EDIT: Reduced length of URL
 
Amid all the pain, suffering and turmoil of this terrible disaster, I see the possibility of something positive happening. And I'm not talking about the thousands and thousands of military personnel, volunteers and good samaritans who are doing everything they can to help. I'm talking about political change.

I'm an admitted optimist and a certified, card carrying centrist. I've stated on more that one occasion that the political pendulum has swung too far to the right and can be expected to begin moving the other direction. The scenes of desperation and destruction we are seeing, primarily impacting black, poor, vulnerable residents of NO, will certainly have a huge impact on citizens all over the US. We will want to "do something" to insure this sort of thing can never happen again in the most powerful nation in the world. This disaster may very well mark the beginning of the decline of the ultra-conservative right.

As the pendulum starts moving toward the left again, it would be wonderful if we could figure out a way to stop it somewhere in mid-swing, before it travels too far the other direction. But I suppose we will have to just try to enjoy the trip, since it is almost inevitable we will end up going too far.

After all, I am only optimistic, not delusional. ;)

REW
 
wabmester said:
I really don't know what the numbers are at this point, but let's go with the estimate of 250,000 people who remained in the city.   I think we've deployed about 150,000 troups in Iraq.   If we pulled them all back here, and they each saved two people, NOLA would be in good shape.   Can you imagine redploying the entire armed forces in a 4-day period?    This disaster is simply too big.   In the end, we will hear thousands of hellish stories.

Are you implying that our entire armed forces are in Iraq? What damn fool would not keep some troops at home?  What about this so-called "homeland security" department? What if there was a terrorist attack on US soil? Are we ****-out-of-luck because all the troops are in Iraq? The administration ****ed-up BIG TIME on this one! THERE IS NO REASON WHY AFTER FOUR DAYS THIS SITUATION SHOULDN'T BE UNDER CONTROL!
 
brewer12345 said:
Plus, maybe someone will ge lucky and shoot down the right chopper this time...

I hope this doesn't mean what it sounds like. Care to elaborate?
 
I agree things should be better but can we chill out on the political rants?  Seems like people that never post are coming out of the woodwork just to rant and rave on political matters.  It has been poor leadership at every level not just the current admin in DC - dem mayor of NOLA, dem gov of LA, rep Pres Bush.  
 
I am not going to comment on the politics of this situation.  I will say that unless you are need deep in the sh*t you are not in a position to understand the dynamics of a massive rescue/relief effort.  My time spent in various organizations doing just that has taught me that.  

It is easy for one, two or ten people to get into these areas since they are not bound by roads as truck area.  TV crews etc. can move about on foot on in boats.  Choppers have no place to land due to entanglements, water and debris.  Large boats do not have enough draft to get through the tight areas and there are no real inter-water ways to proved easy access without having to cross land at some point.  Bridges are out or are impassable, people are shooting at rescue vehicles (been there a time or two myself) and staging areas have to be in areas that are high, dry, assessable and close to transportation centers.  That puts them many many miles away.  NOLA is not the only city hit either.  Mississippi got hammered and some towns are just plain gone.  

It takes time to deploy and doing so with out adequate space, planning and logistics will do nothing but make the situation a cluster f**k.  

Go ahead an bitch about Bush or who ever you want to and rant about not doing anything but unless you are at ground zero don't pretent to understand what it takes to get aid in there with some armed people ready to kill you for your vehicle.  

Yes the situtation is horrible.  Mother nature has a way to taking back what is hers.  NO and the Gulf Coast is at (or below) sea level and is in a very shallow coastal area.  When you build a city dependent upon levees and pumps to keep you dry in a area that has a long history of hurricanes these things happpen.  

Same applies to blizzards up north, floods along the major rivers, tornados in the mid west, or earthquakes out west.  Living in these areas, especially if you are poor or disabled, is a very high risk way of life.  I am truly sorry for the loss of life, property and livelihood of these people.  This will not be the last we see of these kinds of events.  No matter how well you plan there will always be major logistics issues with helping people in these areas; the bigger the mess the harder it is to get in to help people.

I am not trying to start a flame war here; just give a "personal" perspective from some one who used to go in harms way.
 
oldbykur said:
I hope this doesn't mean what it sounds like. Care to elaborate?

I'd be hard pressed to shed a tear if Marine One sucked a couple of shotgun blasts into its engine intakes. Clear enough?
 
Having seen, close up, the ground level chaos in another recent cataclysmic event, I have nothing but empathy for those who are trying to create order out of chaos.  The well nigh complete lack of communication makes the task almost impossible.  Even obtaining fuel for the relief vehicles must be an ordeal, with no electricity to operate the gas pumps. 

That said, there is absolutely no reason why the military was not present in force within a day or two of the hurricane.  That is what they do, project force in primitive areas with no infrastructure.  President Bush's smirky upbeat speech just p*ssed me off.  He should have stayed on vacation, and let one of the more competent cabinet secretaries direct he federal response.  

My heart goes out to the former residents of the Gulf Coast.
 
REWahoo! said:
Brewer, I find it interesting that nut pie reverend Pat Robertson created an international backlash when he called for the "taking out" of a South American leader, something that is reprehensible but not really illegal.  Yet you are obviously posting to this board your preference for the "taking out" of the President of the US, something clearly illegal, as well as morally wrong.  Are you and Pat big buddies or just the same type of pie person?

REW

I think you misunderstand me. Robertson suggested that the US gummint assasinate the democratically elected head of peaceful government. I suggested that if a jonesing crack addict shot down the pResident's helicopter I wouldn't be all that torn up. Big difference.
 
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