illegal immigration - What should be done?.........

[bpp]

Okay, so we have at least a minor agreement on how to legalize immigrant labor. Next question is what to do about the existing "illegals". Spend $200B+ kicking them out, grant them all citizenship via amnesty?

Neither. Combine SG's proposal with employer spot checks followed up by deportation, and you'll create a natural pressure in the direction of legal immigration and away from illegal immigration.

If you do want to try amnesty, then you better figure out how to make sure that you will never need to do amnesty again. Otherwise, having amnesties every 10 years will take all the teeth out of your immigration policies. Better to change your policies than leave them in a visibly ineffectual state.

Bpp

 

[sgeeeee]

Gosh I miss activities-based cost analysis...

I didn't do the cost based analysis. That came from the right-wing, racist think tank paper. I merely pointed out that by their own analysis it doesn't make sense. They provided no other rational than cost in that paper.

Yeah, make it legal and then tax it to death!

Seems to be the universal antidote.

Where are you getting that idea? Not from anything I posted.

While we're arguing about the money that's been wasted in Iraq, let's not forget that we've killed a lot of Americans (let alone disabled many more for life) yet it's still fewer than died in the World Trade Center attacks.

Even more people died in WWII. And WWII has as much to do with the world trade center as Iraq. Come on, don't mindlessly spout this administration's lies.

It would have been nice if we could have avoided spending all that money altogether, but in this case it seems to be better to do something about the neighborhood bully than to just keep reporting his activities to the local Neighborhood Watch.

I haven't seen a credible case made to support this statement.

Maybe we should focus on Social Security & Medicare instead of a few piddling billions in Iraq... or crossing the borders.

Maybe.

 

[samclem]

Quote
It would have been nice if we could have avoided spending all that money altogether, but in this case it seems to be better to do something about the neighborhood bully than to just keep reporting his activities to the local Neighborhood Watch.
I haven't seen a credible case made to support this statement.


6000 to 7000 Iraqi children were dying each month before the war due to economic conditions under Saddam (Source Dennis Halliday, former United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator, (New York Times 1/3/99). Iraq was permittted to sell more than enough oil to alleviate this suffering, but by now everyone should be very familiar with where that money went--and it wasn't for food.

The war put an end to this tragedy. There have definitely been problems along the way (and there will be more), but any notion that the Iraqi people and the region were bettter off before the war is laughable. A freely elected parliament and prime minister--when was that going to happen under Saddam?

 

[mickeyd]

What to do about the 12 milion or so illegals that are already here?

Fix the fencce so the number will not climb any higher than 12 million, continue to look the other way for the 12 million folks that are already camped out here in the USA, wait 20-30 years, the 12 million (or most of them) will die off and the 12 million will be reduced daily (like WWII vets) by nature.

Since fence is now fixed, no new wetbacks. Old wetbacks dead/dying. No more problem, noone unhappy, old, dead/dying illegals will continue to contribute to SS (with fake #) and never draw any SS cash out but as they die off SS will become an even more critical problem. We will all forget about the little border problem and worry about the little SS underfunding problem.

 

[Maximillion]

If america is so concerned about Dictators and peopel dying, can we expect marines in the Sudan, Uganda, Zimbabwe, the Ivory Coast etc, anytime soon??

Maybe you heard of a little country called Rhawanda, then again, they weren't very important, no riches to exploit, and they were killing each other anyway.

Iraq would have settled their own problems on their own terms, for evry Iraqui that dies due to the Foreign forces that is some more recruits for the Martyrs Brigade.

Custer thought he had the Sioux whipped, he kept killing them , but they just kept circling, eventually Custer ran out of bullets but Crazy Horse didn't run out of martyrs.

 

[kathyet]

http://www.americanpatrol.com/_WEB2006/060418.html

Rush Limbaugh on illegal aliens

Kathyet

 

[HFWR]

We should institute a guest worker program based on the number of workers the economy needs to fill the available spaces, streamlined and guest-worker friendly enough to have a chance for success.

Enforce that system by punishing both employers and illegals.

Gently nudge Mexico in the direction of free-markets, rule-of-law, property rights, economic growth, etc.

Decriminalize drugs. We've succeeded in creating a huge criminal enterprise, but haven't slowed drug smuggling or use.

 

[mathjak107]

i dont know about your neighborhood but there isnt any americans here who want to deliver chinese food on a bicycle in the dead of winter....

 

[HFWR]

I guess that would be one of the available spaces, then...

 

[Cut-Throat]

http://www.americanpatrol.com/_WEB2006/060418.html

Rush Limbaugh on illegal aliens

Kathyet

I thought that's where you got your 'news and information'

 

[maddythebeagle]

Decriminalize drugs. We've succeeded in creating a huge criminal enterprise, but haven't slowed drug smuggling or use.

nice try sneaking THAT into this discussion I guess that it is apropos since we stick a lot of drug offenders into jail and if they werent there, they probably could be doing some of these jobs that the low skill immigrant is doing.

 

[HFWR]

Just trying to help...

Actually, it has more to do with border security than illegal immigration per se.

 

[Gpax7]

Piece of factual information: When I returned from Vietnam as a youngster, in 1971, wife and I sought immigration information for Australia. At that time we were both just high school grads.They told us they'd buy round trip tickets for wife and me and one half round trip for my minor son if we'd agree to come and work two years... they requested pile of paperwork and they also requested a photo of us.
I am a white, of northern European descent as is she and as is my son. When I called the Australian Consulate at No. 1 Crocker Plaza in SFO, I asked whey they wanted the picture.The official response I got was that the Austrailain government " didn't want the immigration problems the US is presently experiencing (1971) and the problems they will experience in the years to come."
This really happened. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Cut-Throat]

I asked whey they wanted the picture.The official response I got was that the Austrailain government " didn't want the immigration problems the US is presently experiencing (1971) and the problems they will experience in the years to come."
This really happened. Draw your own conclusions.

What was your conclusion?

 

[haha]

IMO, to have a legitimate opinion on immigration from Latin America you need to have spent some time working there. If so, and you would like the US to be like Latin America (poverty and corruption on a scale unimaginable to most to most gringos), then at least you know what you are asking for.

Otherwise, legal, illegal, wading the river, coming in on a 747, it doesn't matter near so much as that we are permanently altering the most successful and just large nation the world has ever seen.

I guess it might become even better, but IMO don't hold your breath

Ha

 

[Cut-Throat]

IMO, to have a legitimate opinion on immigration from Latin America you need to have spent some time working there. If so, and you would like the US to be like Latin America (poverty and corruption on a scale unimaginable to most to most gringos), then at least you know what you are asking for.

Otherwise, legal, illegal, wading the river, coming in on a 747, it doesn't matter near so much as that we are permanently altering the most successful and just large nation the world has ever seen.

I guess it might become even better, but IMO don't hold your breath

Ha

My take on Latin America is that there are a few rich and many, many poor with almost no middle class. The U.S. is headed in that direction, with or without legal/illegal immigration. Competition with the World and its 5 Billion poor, with the labor up for grabs whether physically here, over a phone line or a Manufacturing plant relocated.

The only difference would be skin color, and that does not make much of a difference.

 

[samclem]

Our present education systems do a poor job of educating the poor.
Our present health care system does a poor job of treating the poor
Our present unskilled American workers get a very low wage for their work

All of these problems will be made worse by admitting more poor people to the US (legally or illegally).

A properly functioning legal immigration system makes sense--we can choose to admit the number of people with the skills the economy demands, and which our nation we can support.

Are we obligated to admit everyone who wants to live here? No other country in the world operates that way.

I don't think this is a skin color issue--it's a matter of numbers, fairness, and respect for the rule of law.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Our present unskilled American workers get a very low wage for their work

Where will the present day workers be employed that used to work at General Motors? This was the backbone of the American middle class. This has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration.

Who are you going to blame for that?

 

[haha]

My take on Latin America is that there are a few rich and many, many poor with almost no middle class. The U.S. is headed in that direction, with or without legal/illegal immigration. Competition with the World and its 5 Billion poor, with the labor up for grabs whether physically here, over a phone line or a Manufacturing plant relocated.

The only difference would be skin color, and that does not make much of a difference.

You are right that skin color is not a factor. However, there is more to culture than skin color.

Also, I would tend to disagree that because America's middle class is thinning out that it would make no difference to import more poor people. That is akin to saying that if a person is cold, we might as well leave him outside in a storm, because hell he was getting cold anyway. My idea is that these trends might be reversed or at least mitigated, but that it will be easier to do if we avoid making them worse.

Also, I disagree that it makes no difference where these poor workers are. Once here, they qualify for American style social services. So not only are they depressing wages, they are also sucking up taxes paid by those who are already here.

I think it also might be  a mistake to assume that Latinos have some kind of gene that makes them like to do heavy work in hot (or cold) and dangerous conditions. Once here, they may find that they prefer welfare and criminality, like our other large group of poor people. Sure the brightest females will get government jobs-Hoo-ray! But that will still leave quite a few to other pursuits. There may even be a limit on the number of taco stands that the US can support.

Ha

 

[samclem]

Where will the present day workers be employed that used to work at General Motors? This was the backbone of the American middle class. This has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration.

Who are you going to blame for that?

I don't see how allowing more immigrants, legal or illegal will help GM workers find/keep work. Right--this has nothing to do with immigration, so why bring it up? Does anybody think that having more immigrants competing for the remaining unskilled jobs in the US will lead to better wages for these jobs? If so, I'd refer that person to a little concept called the "law of supply and demand."

Since you asked--I'd say GM workers are in deep trouble because their company is experiencing a long-term trend of declining sales and therefore cannot afford to employ these workers anymore. GM is noncompetitive for many reasons, including 1) Poorly designed and built products compared to their competitors 2) Having worker compensation that is far above the world rate, in a car market that is globaly competitive.

 

[samclem]

.

 

[youbet]

If america is so concerned about Dictators and peopel dying, can we expect marines in the Sudan, Uganda, Zimbabwe, the Ivory Coast etc, anytime soon??

Absolutely not!  There is no proof of WMD in any of those locations.  I do believe we've learned our lesson about intervening where there is no WMD involved.

 

[Cut-Throat]

I don't see how allowing more immigrants, legal or illegal will help GM workers find/keep work. Right--this has nothing to do with immigration, so why bring it up? Does anybody think that having more immigrants competing for the remaining unskilled jobs in the US will lead to better wages for these jobs? If so, I'd refer that person to a little concept called the "law of supply and demand."

Since you asked--I'd say GM workers are in deep trouble because their company is experiencing a long-term trend of declining sales and therefore cannot afford to employ these workers anymore. GM is noncompetitive for many reasons, including 1) Poorly designed and built products compared to their competitors 2) Having worker compensation that is far above the world rate, in a car market that is globaly competitive.

I brought it up because a lot of folks are trying to pin this on illegal immigration. The demise of the middle class. It's not just car markets that need to be globaly competitive. All jobs are at risk

 

[unclemick]

GM is trouble because of several generations of brain dead stupid management.

Take it from an old blue collar Democrat.

heh heh heh heh heh - not that I'm prejudiced or anything.

 

[youbet]

+ All jobs are at risk

How does "doing nothing" regarding unfettered illegal immigration help this situation?