Isolating Iran Funny

saluki9 said:
As for Iran, I look at it this way. I'm a die hard second amendment type. I love my guns, yet I support not allowing convicted fellons to own guns why? Because they have proven themselves unable to live peacfully. I think the same goes for Iran. At every opportunity they have proven themselves (thanks to a very small % of their population) unable to play nicely.

Ok, that sounds like it could possibly form the kernel of some kind of coherent international policy. But why stop at nukes? Should Iran be allowed submarines? An air force? How do you draw the line between what they (or anybody else -- including your own country) can decide they need for self-defense and what the international community can legitimately forbid?
 
lets-retire said:
There were other things in your post I disagree with, but I can't let this one go. Japan attacked us without provocation. Which, by the way, resulted in fewer deaths than the 9-11 attacks. They fought like fanatics, throughout the entire Pacific campaign. It was this ferocity that led the leadership to weigh the use of nuclear weapons. Would it be more humane to nuke a couple cities and kill civilians or risk a long land and sea battle that would cost more lives on both the Japanese side and our side?

these are weighty questions. But regardless of their answer, a precedent was set. Nuking civilian populations is apparently an acceptable way to prosecute a war.

My point was not to claim that WWII was unjust or Japan was right. My point was that once you have nuked civilians, it becomes understandably much more difficult to attempt to gain the high moral ground in a proliferation debate.

As for what was more "humane", I refuse to accept that civilians are acceptable military targets, nukes or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the major argument about terrorism? That they kill innocent civilians? They probably believe that by killing a "few" Americans, that they will save lots of Muslims, or at least Muslim souls. So they believe their killing is moral also. Well.....let's practice what we preach. Is the offense that civilians are targeted, or is the offense that the killing is done by a non-government entity? It would appear from your argument that killing civilians in ok, even moral, so long as it is done by your government. After all, they were fanatical Japs.... After all, it saved lives. But it's completely immoral if you don't do it as a government action. Never mind that (if you're Palestinian) one of your major beefs might be that you aren't allowed control the land to form a government.

Which brings me to another question....how is what went on in the American West different from what is going on today in Darfur in the Sudan? (ducking). My point being, that as Americans if we want to be moral leaders (as opposed to bullies), we might start by owning our own less-than-stellar history.
 
bosco said:
My point was not to claim that WWII was unjust or Japan was right. My point was that once you have nuked civilians, it becomes understandably much more difficult to attempt to gain the high moral ground in a proliferation debate.

As for what was more "humane", I refuse to accept that civilians are acceptable military targets, nukes or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the major argument about terrorism? That they kill innocent civilians? They probably believe that by killing a "few" Americans, that they will save lots of Muslims, or at least Muslim souls. So they believe their killing is moral also. Well.....let's practice what we preach. Is the offense that civilians are targeted, or is the offense that the killing is done by a non-government entity? It would appear from your argument that killing civilians in ok, even moral, so long as it is done by your government. After all, they were fanatical Japs.... After all, it saved lives. But it's completely immoral if you don't do it as a government action. Never mind that (if you're Palestinian) one of your major beefs might be that you aren't allowed control the land to form a government.

Which brings me to another question....how is what went on in the American West different from what is going on today in Darfur in the Sudan? (ducking). My point being, that as Americans if we want to be moral leaders (as opposed to bullies), we might start by owning our own less-than-stellar history.

Your 2006 view does not translate well into what was happening in the 1940's. The decision to use nukes was taken based on the knowledge and experience of WWII. During that war many civilians were killed. There were whole cities destroyed by bombs, I'll bet many civilians were killed during those runs. It happens. It is war, it is called collateral damage. The costs of collateral damage is weighed against the benefits of destroying the target of military significance.

So we own up to our less than stellar past. Then what are our actions we say, "Well your right we did have slavery so we can't hold you in contempt because you have them." I'd say we have looked at what we have done and tried to correct what we could. I think saying sorry to the Japanese for using a nuke on them is a poor way to start. How do you phrase it, "I'm sorry you snuck up and attacked us without provocation, and fought so fanatically that we felt the horror of sending land troops to kill and be killed was for to great for either of our nations so we bombed two of your cities with nuclear weapons."

The last time I checked we were going about our business when two of our civilian use buildings were attacked WITHOUT provocation. What is the military gain form attacking these buildings? None, absolutely nothing. That is the difference between a military strike and a terrorist attack. The terrorist does it for terror not a valid military objective. Looked at through the military significance of the target I'd say the dropping the nukes were a very good decision. It ended the war and saved the lives of many people on both sides.
 
bosco said:
these are weighty questions. But regardless of their answer, a precedent was set. Nuking civilian populations is apparently an acceptable way to prosecute a war.

My point was not to claim that WWII was unjust or Japan was right. My point was that once you have nuked civilians, it becomes understandably much more difficult to attempt to gain the high moral ground in a proliferation debate.

As for what was more "humane", I refuse to accept that civilians are acceptable military targets, nukes or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the major argument about terrorism? That they kill innocent civilians? They probably believe that by killing a "few" Americans, that they will save lots of Muslims, or at least Muslim souls. So they believe their killing is moral also. Well.....let's practice what we preach. Is the offense that civilians are targeted, or is the offense that the killing is done by a non-government entity? It would appear from your argument that killing civilians in ok, even moral, so long as it is done by your government. After all, they were fanatical Japs.... After all, it saved lives. But it's completely immoral if you don't do it as a government action. Never mind that (if you're Palestinian) one of your major beefs might be that you aren't allowed control the land to form a government.

Which brings me to another question....how is what went on in the American West different from what is going on today in Darfur in the Sudan? (ducking). My point being, that as Americans if we want to be moral leaders (as opposed to bullies), we might start by owning our own less-than-stellar history.

Bosco

Good god man you have just made my thread!!

This one of the best responses I have read anyplace about the subject.
 
lets-retire said:
Your 2006 view does not translate well into what was happening in the 1940's. The decision to use nukes was taken based on the knowledge and experience of WWII. During that war many civilians were killed. There were whole cities destroyed by bombs, I'll bet many civilians were killed during those runs. It happens. It is war, it is called collateral damage. The costs of collateral damage is weighed against the benefits of destroying the target of military significance.

So we own up to our less than stellar past. Then what are our actions we say, "Well your right we did have slavery so we can't hold you in contempt because you have them." I'd say we have looked at what we have done and tried to correct what we could. I think saying sorry to the Japanese for using a nuke on them is a poor way to start. How do you phrase it, "I'm sorry you snuck up and attacked us without provocation, and fought so fanatically that we felt the horror of sending land troops to kill and be killed was for to great for either of our nations so we bombed two of your cities with nuclear weapons."

The last time I checked we were going about our business when two of our civilian use buildings were attacked WITHOUT provocation. What is the military gain form attacking these buildings? None, absolutely nothing. That is the difference between a military strike and a terrorist attack. The terrorist does it for terror not a valid military objective. Looked at through the military significance of the target I'd say the dropping the nukes were a very good decision. It ended the war and saved the lives of many people on both sides.


Saddam did not attack those buildings. A guy STILL FREE did it . That IS one of the reasons I have a problem with the president.
 
lets-retire said:
Your 2006 view does not translate well into what was happening in the 1940's. The decision to use nukes was taken based on the knowledge and experience of WWII. During that war many civilians were killed. There were whole cities destroyed by bombs, I'll bet many civilians were killed during those runs. It happens. It is war, it is called collateral damage. The costs of collateral damage is weighed against the benefits of destroying the target of military significance.

what's the statute of limitations on immoral acts? What happened since the 1940s that made targeting civilians moral? And since when does someone else's immorality justify a response in kind?

We all understand there is "collateral damage" during a war. I think most of us also realize that it's not collatoral if civilians are THE TARGET. It is something more akin to state-sponsored terrorism. Terrorism as a concept means nothing if it's called something else just because you are in agreement with that side. If we don't like them, they are terrorists. If we like them, they are Contras, or freedom fighters, or some such rubbish. It gets a bit akward when the same group is involved (i.e. mujahadeen, who we supported, then didn't). The significance of the Taliban in Afganistan, whom the US supported as a means of giving Russia a black eye, seems to be lost on many Americans. The fact the the US did so much to further the cause of radical Islam is a bitter irony. I guess the Commies must have been even worse.

The purpose of the nuclear strike in Japan was to demoralize, and for that reason a civilian location was deliberately selected. If this is acceptable military behavior, then so be it. But then let's not lecture others for chosing civilian targets when they are at war. You can't have it both ways.
 
bosco said:
what's the statute of limitations on immoral acts? What happened since the 1940s that made targeting civilians moral? And since when does someone else's immorality justify a response in kind?

We all understand there is "collateral damage" during a war. I think most of us also realize that it's not collatoral if civilians are THE TARGET. It is something more akin to state-sponsored terrorism. Terrorism as a concept means nothing if it's called something else just because you are in agreement with that side. If we don't like them, they are terrorists. If we like them, they are Contras, or freedom fighters, or some such rubbish. It gets a bit akward when the same group is involved (i.e. mujahadeen, who we supported, then didn't). The significance of the Taliban in Afganistan, whom the US supported as a means of giving Russia a black eye, seems to be lost on many Americans. The fact the the US did so much to further the cause of radical Islam is a bitter irony. I guess the Commies must have been even worse.

The purpose of the nuclear strike in Japan was to demoralize, and for that reason a civilian location was deliberately selected. If this is acceptable military behavior, then so be it. But then let's not lecture others for chosing civilian targets when they are at war. You can't have it both ways.

bosco,

What are your thoughts, given where we are now, on how we should proceed in regard to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, surviving/living with terrorism, and that sort of thing?

I've been following along with you guys, but suddenly you were debating WWII issues, and I'd like to hear your thought about going on from here. I think I understand your feelings about how things are. How do you think we should proceed?
 
youbet said:
bosco,

What are your thoughts, given where we are now, on how we should proceed in regard to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, surviving/living with terrorism, and that sort of thing?

I wish I had the answers. I wish somebody had them..

My personal belief is that refusing to talk to Iran has been a mistake. I think a dialog can not hurt and I don't understand Bush's refusal to do so. I have no problem with international embargos etc., but I still am curious as to the legal reasoning behind Iran's being told they may not develop nukes. I'm not a lawyer, though.

I think a lot of fuel on the terrorism fire would be removed if some sort of middle-east settlement between Israel and Palestine could occur. I don't think this will happen without the US being far more impartial in that mess than it has been. I don't think Bush has done much to help here, but in fairness to him, smarter presidents tried and failed. However, even a settlement in the middle east would not end terrorism, just remove some fuel IMO.

I would like to see the US be more willing to work through the auspices of the UN. That involves a shift in national psyche, and a willingness to give more weight to the opinions of allies rather than making comments about "old Europe" and just trying to manipulate them. In other words, a higher value ascribed to diplomacy rather than military solutions. Although sometimes military solutions are necessary. I don't think anybody was opposed to invading Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the job was never finished.

Living with terrorism....that's a tough one. I don't know the answer, but I do know that we run the risk of becoming like those we oppose if we allow terrorism dictate our legal and constitutional system. Statistically, we should be more worried about living with traffic. I think we have to try to put the problem into perspcetive.

I fear that we have irreconcilable differences with radical Islam. Therefore, it seems to me the smartest thing we can do is to try to work with other governments (and especially those in the middle east) to marginalize this type of thinking rather than going out of our way to give it a cause to rally around.

just my $.02, and barely worth that.
 
Patrick said:
But perhaps we should also ask if we have a moral basis to do so. Do we have a moral obligation to prevent our people from being annihilated by our enemies?

We certainly have a strategic need to do so.

Who is annihilating whom. The last time I checked, the United States of America had done most of the annihilation. Let's not get carried away with the propaganda and mind control tactics the powers that be use to have us believe that we are under attack every day. Our country presents the greatest danger to others. Let's be real.
 
ADJ said:
Who is annihilating whom. The last time I checked, the United States of America had done most of the annihilation. Let's not get carried away with the propaganda and mind control tactics the powers that be use to have us believe that we are under attack every day. Our country presents the greatest danger to others. Let's be real.

Read the whole thread. I'm talking about Iran's soon-to-be (unless someone stops them) nuclear weapons capability. And don't believe they won't use it when they get it. Sheesh. ::)
 
Patrick said:
Read the whole thread. I'm talking about Iran's soon-to-be (unless someone stops them) nuclear weapons capability. And don't believe they won't use it when they get it. Sheesh. ::)

Again I wonder, lets see Iran gets a nuke uses the nuke, Iran then does not exist anymore.

the whole thing seems absurd.
 
lets-retire said:
They fought like fanatics, throughout the entire Pacific campaign. It was this ferocity that led the leadership to weigh the use of nuclear weapons. Would it be more humane to nuke a couple cities and kill civilians or risk a long land and sea battle that would cost more lives on both the Japanese side and our side? The long land battle would most likely result in civilian casualties anyway. So to sum up the choices 1) use two nuclear bombs that will definitely kill civilians and demonstrate the devastating power we possess in hopes the Japanese capitulate or 2) save the guaranteed civilian casualties and fight a long expensive, in money and lives, land battle, that will probably result in many civilian deaths anyway. I think we made the correct choice. An argument can be made that the use of the nuke in Japan resulted in ours and the Russians reluctance to use them later during the cold war.

This is the argument that's always used to justify this cowardly and evil act. One can argue that Germany deserved it and not Japan but somehow they were able to convince themselves that the yellow people deserved it more. Bitter wars have always been fought and many lives lost but the nuking of innocent civilians to the tune of millions can never never ever be justified under any scenario. I can think of many many countries the US attacked unprovoked under the guise of protecting their interest?. Does this justify an attack on the innocent American civilian in return. I always content that Americans do not vehemently oppose wars because they don't really understand the suffering of people in war. It's easy when it's happening to other people to turn the other cheek.
 
newguy888 said:
Again I wonder, lets see Iran gets a nuke uses the nuke, Iran then does not exist anymore.

the whole thing seems absurd.

So you are willing to trust these nutcases to not use it? Didn't you start this thread saying we needed a draft for a 500K man army to stop them? I agree with Nords, you are a troll.
 
bosco said:
Which brings me to another question....how is what went on in the American West different from what is going on today in Darfur in the Sudan? (ducking). My point being, that as Americans if we want to be moral leaders (as opposed to bullies), we might start by owning our own less-than-stellar history.

How are those Canadian indigenous people doing? I don't think they are running Canada ,are they? I think their land was stolen, too. Give it back, you plaid-wearing imperialist thugs!
 
Patrick said:
So you are willing to trust these nutcases to not use it? Didn't you start this thread saying we needed a draft for a 500K man army to stop them? I agree with Nords, you are a troll.

Did not say that the whole thing seems absurd, that is what I said. The 5 million man army was what I talked about to do what needs to be done NOW not when the mullahs have their bomb.

Geesh.
 
ADJ said:
One can argue that Germany deserved it and not Japan but somehow they were able to convince themselves that the yellow people deserved it more.

Uh, excuse me but German cities were bombed extensively during the last phases of the war, the difference was that conventional bombs were used and many of our and Germany's aviators were killed in addition to the civilian casualties.
 
newguy888 said:
Did not say that the whole thing seems absurd, that is what I said.

:confused: Huh? I can't understand this doubletalk. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but it's all Greek to me. I'm done with this thread.
 
bosco said:
Terrorism as a concept means nothing if it's called something else just because you are in agreement with that side. If we don't like them, they are terrorists. If we like them, they are Contras, or freedom fighters, or some such rubbish. It gets a bit akward when the same group is involved (i.e. mujahadeen, who we supported, then didn't). The significance of the Taliban in Afganistan, whom the US supported as a means of giving Russia a black eye, seems to be lost on many Americans. The fact the the US did so much to further the cause of radical Islam is a bitter irony. I guess the Commies must have been even worse.

Excellent point. What you are witnessing is the mentality that arises from state sponsored propaganda to control one's thinking instead of looking at the issues critically. The so called terrorists (American term since the respectable media use the term insurgents), I can bet do not view themselves at terrorists but merely people fighting to free their country from the grip of American control and influence. In that regard, they can be compared to Americans that fought for independence from Britain. While their tactics seem barbaric and I for one do not support violence, to them, they are using whatever is at their disposal. I wonder how many in the media would be able to say that and still keep their jobs.
 
ADJ said:
Excellent point. What you are witnessing is the mentality that arises from state sponsored propaganda to control one's thinking instead of looking at the issues critically. The so called terrorists (American term since the respectable media use the term insurgents), I can bet do not view themselves at terrorists but merely people fighting to free their country from the grip of American control and influence. In that regard, they can be compared to Americans that fought for independence from Britain. While their tactics seem barbaric and I for one do not support violence, to them, they are using whatever is at their disposal. I wonder how many in the media would be able to say that and still keep their jobs.

Excellent post!

JG
 
ADJ said:
This is the argument that's always used to justify this cowardly and evil act. One can argue that Germany deserved it and not Japan but somehow they were able to convince themselves that the yellow people deserved it more. Bitter wars have always been fought and many lives lost but the nuking of innocent civilians to the tune of millions can never never ever be justified under any scenario. I can think of many many countries the US attacked unprovoked under the guise of protecting their interest?. Does this justify an attack on the innocent American civilian in return. I always content that Americans do not vehemently oppose wars because they don't really understand the suffering of people in war. It's easy when it's happening to other people to turn the other cheek.

This will be my last post on this thread, since we are arguing in a circle and nobody is making any progress. I don't remember the name of the German city off the top of my head, but I know there was one that was fired bombed so extensively, that according to German witnesses, the winds produced pulled more fuel into the fire making it self propagating. The end result was the entire city was destroyed, but no nukes were used and I don't see anybody putting out the foolish idea to apologize to the Germans.
 
lets-retire said:
This will be my last post on this thread, since we are arguing in a circle and nobody is making any progress. I don't remember the name of the German city off the top of my head, but I know there was one that was fired bombed so extensively, that according to German witnesses, the winds produced pulled more fuel into the fire making it self propagating. The end result was the entire city was destroyed, but no nukes were used and I don't see anybody putting out the foolish idea to apologize to the Germans.

You're thinking of Dresden, and the idea of apologizing for it has been a hot topic of debate for some years now, though none has formally been issued to my knowledge. Winston Churchill reportedly considered it (and the similar firebombings of Tokyo and other cities) to be a war crime, apparently feeling quite conflicted about the whole policy of bombing cities in general.

So it goes.
 
You are probably thinking of Dresden, which is the most infamous case, but there were others.

The bombing of cities in Europe during WW II really needs to be put into context and is a very complex moral and military subject that continues to generate student papers at the War Colleges today (I wrote a few myself). Just a few observatons:
---Germany and Britain were engaged in a no-holds barred struggle for survival. There was no doubt that a German victory would have meant virtual enslavement of the Brittain. When the stakes are high, the gloves come off. As an historical note, the UK was well along in the development of anthrax bombs for use against Germans on the Continent if the need arose.
--- While Britain was bombing these cities, the Germans were doing their very best to do the same to the UK. Memory joggers: Coventry, V-1, V-2, blitz.
--- There was nothing especially barbaric about aerial bombardment in comparison to other means of warfare during WW II. The city of Stalingrad was as thoroughly destroyed by artillery and troops up close as any city targeted by bombers--it was the bloodiest battle in human history. Sending hundreds of thousands of US troops to Iran, besides being crazy, would not likely result in less Iranian carnage than other means of attacking targets there.
--- As a practical matter, the UK was on the ropes in the early years of the war. Germany was at the door and the UK did not have a toehold on the Continent from which to attack. Aerial bombardment (and the Royal Navy) were the only means to stave off Germany while buiding strength for an eventual invasion of continental Europey. The US favored "precision" daylight bombing to target particular German industrial targets deemed crucial to the war effort. Due to practical limitations in being able to strike these targets with precision and due to errors in determining exactly which nodes were truly critical to the German war effort, this US campaign had limited success. Still, the US deserves a lot of credit for attempting to minimize civilian casualties while making the most of the limited air power tools of the time. (And, believe it or not, there was considerable debate about the morality of targeting German cities at the time, even given the nature of the war). American aviators paid a heavy price for attempting to implement daylight precision bombing, and it did produce some noteable results that impacted the war effort, particularly with respect to German POL production and some portions of the transportaton system. The RAF decided early on that daylight bombing was going to cost them a lot of lives and would be limited in effectiveness. and began a campaign of night bombing of German cities (effectively, only area targets could be hit at night). The US also helped them in many of these raids, it was a combined offensive. While there was some hope that the raids might break German morale (which we might today classify as a"terrorist" objective), the primary officialy objective of the raids was also to displace German war workers and disrupt production. Now, Dresden is more difficult to explain in this light, as it was not a major industrial city. Still, it did have important rail facilities and there was some belief, as it had not been struck up to that time, that it was being viewed by the Germans as a sanctuary and that war production was likely being moved there. This is tenuous rationale at best. But, placed in the context of the time, the Dresden raid is at least understandable. Take a look at pictures of 1943 London, imagine you are driving through that on the way to an RAF targeting meeting, and tell yourself that you would stand up and tell everyone Dresden was too pretty to bomb. Not gonna hapen.


Note: The fire bombing of Tokyo (a "conventional, non-WMD" attack) killed more people than the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It doesn't take a WMD to kil thousands of people, but it does make it easier and more difficult to defend against.

Does this have anything to do with Muslim terrorists? I don't think so, but maybe they do. In general, targeting of civilians does not produce the results expected by the atacker--it hardens attitudes, strengthens the will of those attacked, and makes t more difficult to achieve results. Still, if the war of civilizations (modernism, rationalism and the scientific method, respect for the dignity of the individual vs. a barbaric 6th century theocracitic world view) ever makes it necessary or useful to engage in widescale killing (and to accept civilian casualties of our own) to preserve our civilization, the West will do it. I hope.
 
In the Spanish Civil War, there was a town in northern Spain called
Guernica. On April 26, 1937, German pilots in German planes bombed
the town and then strafed the survivors with machine guns. The town had zero military significance and all casualties were civilian. Sherman said
"War is hell!" He knew what he was talking about.

JG
 
bosco said:
I wish I had the answers. I wish somebody had them..

Thanks for your comments bosco. I also wish someone had the answers!

Sometimes it seems like the presidential election controversies, the impeachment of Clinton and the war in Iraq have combined to make some folks so angry that's it's impossible to discuss where to go from here. It seems like all criticisms and no suggestions. And everything presented in the most mean-spirited way possible. :-[

For folks who seem to emotionally benefit from screaming half-truth accusations and semi-facts back and forth, I suppose these forums are as good a place to do that sort of thing as any. But it does seem like the same ole sh*t repeated again and again and again. :p

We'll see political forces shift. And, we'll see them shift back. And then shift again. And on and on through time. My hope is that the new holders of power are able to focus on positive, thoughtful leadership and not exclusively on retribution, revenge and hate, regardless of which direction the power shifts are taking.
 
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