Isolating Iran Funny

[bosco]

How are those Canadian indigenous people doing? I don't think they are running Canada ,are they? I think their land was stolen, too. Give it back, you plaid-wearing imperialist thugs!

since you brough it up, there are two differences between how the US and Canada have handled the issue of indigenous people

1) Canada managed to steal their land without using the army to slaughter them, passing out measles blankets, etc.
2) Canada is currently in the process of negotiating with them to return lands and money in compensation (beyond 'reservations' or 'reserves' as they are called in Canada). E.xcept in Alaska, this has not been done in the US to any meaningful extent (except for deeding a couple of firecracker stands and cigarette stores).

this is not to say that Canada is blameless by a long strectch. However, Canada seems to be more willing to acknowledge mistakes and attempt to do something about it. Which is not to say there isn't room for improvement.

 

[youbet]

Which is not to say there isn't room for improvement.

Looks like you too are a master of understatement!

 

[bosco]

Does this have anything to do with Muslim terrorists? I don't think so, but maybe they do. In general, targeting of civilians does not produce the results expected by the atacker--it hardens attitudes, strengthens the will of those attacked, and makes t more difficult to achieve results. Still, if the war of civilizations (modernism, rationalism and the scientific method, respect for the dignity of the individual vs. a barbaric 6th century theocracitic world view) ever makes it necessary or useful to engage in widescale killing (and to accept civilian casualties of our own) to preserve our civilization, the West will do it. I hope.

Although I agree with much of this statement, I feel compelled to point out that Islam is not a monolith. The fanatic variety (Wahabism) has made inroads in recent years, in no small part due to US policies. In fact, during the dark ages of Europe, it was Islamic universities that preserved the world's knowledge. Without this, the Renaissance would not have happened. Also, someone pointed out to me that women had more rights under Islamic law than they did under British law until fairly recently in history. I can't verify that, but I don't think women had many rights under British law until fairly late in the game, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's true.

Also, just because Islam was formulated in the 5th century doesn't make all Islamic thinking representative of a "barbaric 6th century theocratic word view" any more than all Christian thinking is a "barbaric 1st century theocratic view." Islamic fundamentalists scare me a lot. So do Christian fundamentalists. Both groups seem all too willing to subjegate human rights to their own theology. Both have a violent streak.

Islam is not going to go away, and we aren't going to be able to kill them all. I still think the best way to attempt to diffuse the radical varieties is to accord more legitimacy to the moderate types. But what do I know--I'm just a dumb atheist, with dualing philosophy and engineering degrees.

 

[youbet]

Islam is not going to go away, and we aren't going to be able to kill them all. I still think the best way to attempt to diffuse the radical varieties is to accord more legitimacy to the moderate types. But what do I know--I'm just a dumb atheist, with dualing philosophy and engineering degrees.

Christianity isn't going to go away either. Do you suggest the same formula to diffuse the radial Christians? That is, accord more legitimacy to the moderate types?

 

[bosco]

Christianity isn't going to go away either. Do you suggest the same formula to diffuse the radial Christians? That is, accord more legitimacy to the moderate types?

I haven't noticed the kind of prejudice against Christians that I have against Muslims. As far as I can see, Christians are not discriminated against in the US, and they are already pretty mainstream. Most people don't confuse mainstream Judeo-Christian values with the blathering of the fringe elements. I don't think many people, for example, support murder of doctors that perform abortions. But neither are all Christians blamed for the actions of these whackos.

 

[youbet]

I haven't noticed the kind of prejudice against Christians that I have against Muslims. As far as I can see, Christians are not discriminated against in the US

I guess it depends where you look. On this board, for example, a broad-brushed condemnation of Islamists will get you corrected fairly quickly. Stereotyping and generally condemning Christians is frequently accepted.

Perhaps I'm too sensitive. I don't like to stereotype, categorize, bucketize, etc., people at all.

But in any regard, it sounds like you're saying that you feel that if we could stop prejudice against Islamists in the USA, there would be less or no Islamic terrorism to worry about in the USA?

 

[FinanceDude]

So............we want to ISOLATE Iran, but we NEED their HELP with Iraq?

I don't like that nutcase from Iran anymore than you do, but if I were him I'd tell the US that he's going to "isolate himself" from Iraq................

 

[bosco]

But in any regard, it sounds like you're saying that you feel that if we could stop prejudice against Islamists in the USA, there would be less or no Islamic terrorism to worry about in the USA?

No, I'm saying that taking the attitude that mainstraim Muslims are decent people, treating them like partners in the war on terrorism might make some sense. If I were a Muslim and I knew something, the last thing I would do in the current climate is say something to anyone official. You kidding? I'd go home and shut up, even if I overheard something useful. The government would have the right to make me disappear and torture me. I wouldn't expect them to treat me as anything other than an enemy combatant. Case in point: Maher Arar (although he wasn't American, the fact that he was from Canada allowed his story to come out. I wonder how many Arar's there are in the US). Do you think anyone in his community will be talking now about anything? And he didn't even know anything whatsoever.

The behavior of the US government, IMO, has polarized the situation and ratcheted up the fear. The net result will likely be a total clamming up of the Islamic community. Is that in our interest? It might be a lot tougher to recruit nutjobs in the mosque etc. if they had to worry about other Muslims ratting them out.

 

[youbet]

No, I'm saying that taking the attitude that mainstraim Muslims are decent people, treating them like partners in the war on terrorism might make some sense.

Agreed.