Minor water leak = major remediation?

[ProspectiveBum]

I'm looking for some input on how you folks would deal with this issue. We had a plumber out today to install a new toilet. He pulled the old one and noted that the wood floor around the flange showed water damage. It seems that the wax ring may not have sealed perfectly, leading to some water damage to the boards right around the toilet. This is a ~7-year-old engineered wood floor glued down to a concrete slab (DW and I have previously debated the wisdom of installing wood floors in a bathroom; I lost). The plumber recommended a remediation company, whose workers showed up a few hours later. They pulled up some of the boards around the flange, noting that they're holding water. They went around with a moisture meter and were getting mildly elevated readings in a few spots, but nothing major. They set up a dehumidifier in the bathroom and sealed up the room. Their next step is continuing to rip up the floor, and "follow the water", wherever that might lead them throughout the ground floor of the house. They'll also tear out the bottom 2 feet of drywall in that bathroom, although there are zero signs of water damage to the baseboards or drywall.

This all feels like massive overkill to me. We had a legitimate plumbing flood decades ago, and they followed all these steps, and it made perfect sense then.
In comparison, this seems like shooting a fly with a bazooka. My inclination is to have a flooring repair company come in to repair the water damaged boards around the flange and be done with it.

DW has raised the possibility of mold, which I agree would be bad. However, there was no evidence of any mold under the flooring that I watched them pull up. FWIW, we live in an area with low humidity, so mold is probably less of an issue here than in other parts of the country.

I need to decide whether to have them come out tomorrow and continue the demolition or opt for a much less invasive fix. How would you proceed?

 

[Ready]

We just went through the same thing a few months ago. A very minor leak from a toilet in our third floor caused damage to three floors in our home. We had to rip out the drywall in our master bathroom, kitchen, and hallway. We used Servpro to remove everything and a local company to do the repairs.

The damage came to about $16K. We ran it through our insurance company and they paid for everything other than the deductible. We were also concerned about mold but we never found any after ripping everything out. In retrospect we could have done a scaled down version of repair and it would have cost a lot less. It took about six weeks to get everything done and we were living in a construction zone the whole time.

But we were also worried about mold and didn’t know how to know for sure if we were at risk without ripping everything out. And once we decided to run it through insurance it didn’t make sense to only halfway do the job.

 

[retire to nature]

I would go with flooring repair only. looks like from wax ring loosen. or this flood in the history. I had a water around toilet which was moving around. This time I was a tenant. But now, I am a landlord, so I have seen toilet installation many times.

One time, after new roofing, water damage from a hole mistake by roofing company. My ceiling drywall got all water damaged. I worried about mold. a company came out and installed big dehumidifier. Since I am an RN, I have taken microbiology class, so I asked many questions to the company, they are not so expert either, just keep repeating, no water and no food, no mold.

Also, as a fixer upper, I know that there is so much mold behind wall or underneath flooring etc, but we seals it not to come out to living space anyway. so there is no food to go in either.

If you don't feel like water damage from baseboard mark etc, I wouldn't go further way.

 

[retire to nature]

like Ready said, since how insurance company works, contractor companies wouldn't mind your cost at all. All my repairs are so easy, but if I would go with insurance company I have to be more complicated to make the cost larger to claim it.

 

[donheff]

How essential is it to deal with mold? I know it can get out of hand but a lot of people clean it up with Kills and run dehumidifiers to keep it down. I suspect there is a lot of it hiding behind many walls. Is this one of those crap shoot situations where 95% of the time no big deal but once in a while things go south?

 

[freedomatlast]

Clean what you can with bleach, run the dehumidifier for several days, reinstall the toilet with a new thicker wax ring and you're done. The fact that the remediation company was able to show up so quickly tells you that they are not busy, are short on work and are trying to get as many billable hours out of your job as they possibly can.

 

[Ronstar]

Clean what you can with bleach, run the dehumidifier for several days, reinstall the toilet with a new thicker wax ring and you're done. The fact that the remediation company was able to show up so quickly tells you that they are not busy, are short on work and are trying to get as many billable hours out of your job as they possibly can.

+1

 

[Ready]

I purchased a moisture meter at the beginning of the project so that I could keep an eye on the fans and see how things were drying. It also allowed me to double check their claims regarding which parts of the house were damaged. It was a good investment and now if I suspect another leak I can do a quick check to see where there might be damage before calling anyone else in. Here’s a link to the one I bought:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/General-Tools-Instruments-Digital-Test-Meter/50284821

 

[Bamaman]

Remediation companies are really good at making a mountain out of a mole hill. I wouldn't go to such measures to make repairs to such a minor job.

I'm rebuilding a bathroom this week, and found some damage to the floor under the toilet. When our house was built 40 years ago, they used 3/4 inch plywood, then tar paper and then a masonite type of flooring. After the leak the masonite is turning to powder in a few places.

I just put down Redgard sealer and then thinset mortar where the floor deteriorated. I am going to put Wonderboard on more thinset. Then I'm installing new porcelain tile.

I would be very hesitant to file any homeowner's claim unless it's really major. I had an ATV stolen 4 years ago and turned in a claim--getting $3K. I was hit 3 years ago with a pretty major burglary. When we left town and moved last year, homeowners' insurance was virtually unavailable except at 2x the normal price which was $4K yearly. More than 2 homeowners' claims, and the past claim info in Lexus/Nexus may cost you big, big $ for 5 years. It's often more beneficial to not make a claim.

 

[JoeWras]

As someone who does disaster repair for uninsured people, I have to shake my head. Our standards are so low compared to these restoration companies, simply because we don't have the funds. We fix houses so people don't fall through their floors, or deal with massive mold blooms. A little stained wood that turns black over the years (not the same as black mold) is not a problem if it has integrity. Black mold is a different animal and we treat that differently, but still don't freak everyone out and evacuate the block like there is a nuke or something.

I'm thinking of starting another thread about insurance and roof damage. There seems to be a trend of talking up damage and putting fear in people's hearts so that insurance claims can be huge. Don't get me wrong, some mold situations are dangerous. But somewhere, perspective is getting lost.

[EDIT] Bamaman's post crossed with mine. He said it better in a TL-DR way "Remediation companies are really good at making a mountain out of a mole hill."

 

[Music Lover]

Of course there will be an elevated moisture level on wet wood, but just because wood is wet that doesn't mean it's damaged or full of mold. In new home construction floor sheathing and wall studs are left exposed to rain for weeks or months and suffers little or no damage.

This sounds like massive overkill to repair what might be a simple leak...but of course I'm saying that without seeing the extent of the problem. I agree with the comment that the fact that they were able to come out right away and then immediately recommended extensive repairs is suspicious. Water leaves a trail, if you don't see water damage it's very likely that there isn't any.

I would fix the leak and let the wet wood dry out for a few days. Then check the moisture levels again if you're not sure.

 

[calmloki]

Note SoCal address. Remediation company can GTFO. Dealt with such a company 15 years or so ago and watched them scare the hell out of our tenants over a toilet tank (fresh water) leak that they made sound like the tenants were living in sewage and a combination of ebola, aids, and the black death. Since then I only used them for the cleanup of a gunshot suicide.

 

[MrsHaloFIRE]

Overkill. Very common to have a little water damage around toilet. Patch it and move on. I would not have let the first knife go into drywall. Turned this into a huge inconvenient PITA

 

[pb4uski]

+1 What you plan, or at worst, replace just the bathroom floor and assuming that you don't find additional moisture or mold in doing that, declare victory.

You can also bank an "I told you so" with DW, though I would not recommend using it.

 

[ProspectiveBum]

Thanks, everyone, I really appreciate all the feedback. It definitely felt like a "mountain out of a molehill" situation, and I didn't appreciate the scare tactics that they employed on DW. I called them up to decline further services, and they've already collected their dehumidifier. Now to find somebody to repair this floor. Not sure anyone will be excited about taking on what should be a small job...

 

[Athermos4u]

I'm looking for some input on how you folks would deal with this issue. We had a plumber out today to install a new toilet. He pulled the old one and noted that the wood floor around the flange showed water damage. It seems that the wax ring may not have sealed perfectly, leading to some water damage to the boards right around the toilet. This is a ~7-year-old engineered wood floor glued down to a concrete slab (DW and I have previously debated the wisdom of installing wood floors in a bathroom; I lost). The plumber recommended a remediation company, whose workers showed up a few hours later. They pulled up some of the boards around the flange, noting that they're holding water. They went around with a moisture meter and were getting mildly elevated readings in a few spots, but nothing major. They set up a dehumidifier in the bathroom and sealed up the room. Their next step is continuing to rip up the floor, and "follow the water", wherever that might lead them throughout the ground floor of the house. They'll also tear out the bottom 2 feet of drywall in that bathroom, although there are zero signs of water damage to the baseboards or drywall.

This all feels like massive overkill to me. We had a legitimate plumbing flood decades ago, and they followed all these steps, and it made perfect sense then.
In comparison, this seems like shooting a fly with a bazooka. My inclination is to have a flooring repair company come in to repair the water damaged boards around the flange and be done with it.

DW has raised the possibility of mold, which I agree would be bad. However, there was no evidence of any mold under the flooring that I watched them pull up. FWIW, we live in an area with low humidity, so mold is probably less of an issue here than in other parts of the country. Also many home policies have mold exclusions now. Make sure you check your policy before you act.

I need to decide whether to have them come out tomorrow and continue the demolition or opt for a much less invasive fix. How would you proceed?

It sounds like overkill to me. I would repair the wood around the flange and move on. There are also some really realistic porcelain tile made to look like wood. You could go that route for a longer term solution to wood floors in a bath. But I still wouldn't pay for remediation. Just regular demolition.

 

[Koolau]

Lots of disadvantages of a concrete structure like our condo bldg. Biggest problem we faced was leveling the floors when we rehab'd. Nearly 3 inches lower in the middle from the walls due to natural sag. Lots of other stuff as well, but another story.

BUT, when our toilet leaked last week - failed wax ring I guess. No wood to get soaked or needing replacement. We just replaced the entire toilet with "comfort" height. All we have to fix is the neighbor's dry wall ceiling below us. Hoping it's not too much money. The building manger and the building crew will do the work in their spare time and charge us. YMMV

 

[ProspectiveBum]

After not hearing anything for a few days, I thought we were home free. No such luck, they just sent me a bill for $730! I’m hopping mad, especially because I called the company before their guys even showed up, and told them that I thought this was overkill for our situation (we originally thought that the plumber was recommending a company that could replace the few boards around our toilet, not a flood remediation company). Their rep convinced me that they should come out to make sure, and if we didn’t need their services, that’d be that. They did set up a dehumidifier in the bathroom, and said it would be $100 per day. I expected to pay for that, but they charged us an exorbitant after hours fees for their guys to come out after 5pm (after I called and said we didn’t need them to come!).

Should be an interesting conversation with them tomorrow...

 

[retire to nature]

After not hearing anything for a few days, I thought we were home free. No such luck, they just sent me a bill for $730! I’m hopping mad, especially because I called the company before their guys even showed up, and told them that I thought this was overkill for our situation (we originally thought that the plumber was recommending a company that could replace the few boards around our toilet, not a flood remediation company). Their rep convinced me that they should come out to make sure, and if we didn’t need their services, that’d be that. They did set up a dehumidifier in the bathroom, and said it would be $100 per day. I expected to pay for that, but they charged us an exorbitant after hours fees for their guys to come out after 5pm (after I called and said we didn’t need them to come!).

Should be an interesting conversation with them tomorrow...

So how did the conversation go?

I kinda sensed the bill would be high because most of contractors not come out immediately. Well reasonable price and skill ppl are well booked their schedules. If they say go immediately, they charge all the stuffs up especially water issue.

When I call service, I always let them know how not urgent case is. or if urgent case is, let them know clearly too.

many contractors are like that, so I always get stressful to find a good company. reviews are helps. but from my experience, I got estimate 3x times more. usually when they come out fast, usually 3 times more in my experience.

 

[ProspectiveBum]

The conversation didn’t go particularly well. The owner agreed to drop the price to $475, but no further, based on his “employees’ assessment of the damage”. Ultimately, I agreed to pay the lower price to be done with it, and told him that I think his business practices are unethical.

In thinking about it more, I think they must offer plumbers a kick-back for referring clients to them. Our plumber should have known this wasn’t a “gut the bathroom” situation, so I plan to give him an earful, too.

All told, an expensive life lesson.

 

[Ready]

The conversation didn’t go particularly well. The owner agreed to drop the price to $475, but no further, based on his “employees’ assessment of the damage”. Ultimately, I agreed to pay the lower price to be done with it, and told him that I think his business practices are unethical.

In thinking about it more, I think they must offer plumbers a kick-back for referring clients to them. Our plumber should have known this wasn’t a “gut the bathroom” situation, so I plan to give him an earful, too.

All told, an expensive life lesson.

You got off cheap. Servpro charged our insurance company $5,000. These companies make their money by placing fans and dehumidifiers in the house and charging daily rental fees. It’s a rip off considering I’ve probably paid for the cost of the equipment in full from the one job.

 

[ProspectiveBum]

You got off cheap.

You’re right, of course. It’s just that NONE of their interventions were warranted in our situation. So $475 paid for zero benefit.

I suppose I should consider the $475 tuition for a couple of life lessons:

If a contractor (my plumber) is eager to refer another contractor, be suspicious.
Remediation companies in general are not to be trusted. In a true emergency, use the insurance company’s provider.

 

[Koolau]

You’re right, of course. It’s just that NONE of their interventions were warranted in our situation. So $475 paid for zero benefit.

I suppose I should consider the $475 tuition for a couple of life lessons:

If a contractor (my plumber) is eager to refer another contractor, be suspicious.
Remediation companies in general are not to be trusted. In a true emergency, use the insurance company’s provider.

Heh, heh, years ago, we had a minor plumbing flood. I went out and bought a $40 shop vac that was suitable for sucking up water. I had (but rarely used) a dehumidifier that I picked up at a neighbor's "high end" yard sale (you know, electronics and appliances rather than jelly jars and chipped china) for IIRC $40. Worked like a charm. Dried out 350SF of carpet for the cost of electricity - all in about 30 hours from incident. Not suggesting being so "prepared" but confirming that the big companies will charge you whatever you will pay for a rather easy fix (most cases.) Oh, and they use YOUR electricity!! YMMV

 

[RAE]

Clean what you can with bleach, run the dehumidifier for several days, reinstall the toilet with a new thicker wax ring and you're done. The fact that the remediation company was able to show up so quickly tells you that they are not busy, are short on work and are trying to get as many billable hours out of your job as they possibly can.

+1, this is what I would do.

 

[Retired Expat]

Mold and Remediation companies

My career was in high end construction and towards the end mostly consulting and Owners rep work. Have seen and heard it all. Client’s who found some mildew and called a remediation and mold inspection firm. They did dozens of wipe tests, and set up air monitoring throughout the house. And of course all came back positive for mold. Because it is Everywhere! They got sold on a huge package of work but then called me.

I found that they didn’t differentiate between the kinds of molds found and there are countless varieties and that they didn’t sample the air outside or in the crawl space. When we did we found the level of mold in the air outside was much higher than inside. House was surrounded by beautiful gardens and had a lot of powdery mildew on the leaves. So all the remediation in the world was not going to reduce the airborn mold.

None of the mold found was toxic or in such quantities that a simple cleaning by the housekeeper wouldn’t take care of it. But did suggest a better cleaning protocol. Did suggest that they buy a humidistat and on excessively humid days run the AC and to actually turn on the bath exhaust fans after showering and use the kitchen hood when pots are steaming on the stove and to install better filters on the Forced air system.

Funghi can be good or bad, delicious mushrooms in a cream sauce, crazy expensive truffles, annoying mildew in your shower or psychedelic or poisonous and kill you. But like anything can be used by the less than honest to separate you from your money. These companies are not fiduciaries and no where is it stated that they are putting your best interests above theirs. Therein lies the rub..