My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[FUEGO]

So maybe $50,000 total debt, this perhaps underestimated too. I assume that you know this is hopeless, but keep up with it for the entertainment value? It is probably hopeless even if she were to change overnight, get a straight job and start saving.

Guessing about the unknown/undisclosed, I would estimate:
$30-40k gambling debt
$30k CC or other unsecured debt
$20k owed to various family/friends

$80-90k total. I imagine a bankruptcy would wipe a couple of these clean and cram down on the other creditors for the rest under a Chapter 13. The house and new car payment could be serviced as well most likely if BIL and SIL were committed to the plan.

But that only addresses the financial aspects, not the ongoing gambling problem.

Not quite hopeless yet (from a financial standpoint), but very very ugly in the best case scenario.

I guess my ongoing involvement is part entertainment, part emotional for BIL's and his kids' sake. Partly helping him with as smooth a crash landing as possible.

At the end of the day, BIL is a good guy. I'm as close to him as I am to my own brother, and I see more of his kids than I do my nieces and nephews on my side of the family.

 

[FUEGO]

It's his SiL, so he kind of has to maintain hope. From a distance we can see bleak odds, but when it's in the family somebody has to maintain a path to hope.

People rarely change, but some do, and they're probably worth all the effort as long as the helpers protect their own interests.

I'm not too optimistic about the outcome at this point. Honestly I'm a little surprised that they are still living together and they still have 2 cars and a house. It has been 7 months since I started this thread. Curious to see if things improve or get much worse by the one year mark.

It is interesting in a way, because this issue is like the 800 pound gorilla in the room at times. At family gatherings, nobody really talks about it, but we all know about it. I know this issue is eating SIL alive on the inside, but she keeps up the best Stepford Wives appearance outwardly.

BIL says it is really dragging on the family. 20 debtor calls a day from CC's and other debt. Gambling debtors constantly trying to get their money back. They don't answer the phone any more at the house.

 

[clifp]

That is a truly grim situation. I am surprised SIL has not suggested that they get all the money they can get their hands on and go to the nearest legal crap table. If they lose head to straight to bankruptcy court...

 

[REWahoo]

That is a truly grime situation.

Yep, it doesn't get much dirtier.

 

[FUEGO]

Yep, it doesn't get much dirtier.

This thread has been soiled by your humor.

 

[devans0]

According to compulsive gamblers, that is people who know, gambling is an addiction. I don't pretend to understand, but it is. Why else would people who know better, mess up so badly?
Other people in your BILs situation can get locked into co-dependent acts that are intended to help, but make the problems worse. There are some that have walked the road that your brother is on. They can offer some real help.

 

[TromboneAl]

Thanks for keeping the updates coming, it's fascinating.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Gee, Fuego. Not much you can do but offer a shoulder for BIL and the kids and hope for the best. Like, Ha, I think it is going to get much worse before he gets free of her.
I think that you might be riding in the same car as me on the "family is crazy" train. Sorry about that.

 

[FUEGO]

Gee, Fuego. Not much you can do but offer a shoulder for BIL and the kids and hope for the best. Like, Ha, I think it is going to get much worse before he gets free of her.
I think that you might be riding in the same car as me on the "family is crazy" train. Sorry about that.

Family is Crazy. Yes.

I'm just trying to be there for BIL and his kids. He has taken over the family finances for now, and is really in a tough situation because there is a sea of debt, and they are drowning in it. He already knows it will be years before things will be back to normal in any respect (financially). I am the go-to guy for legal/finance stuff, so I'm glad to be there for him.

DW and I just updated the wills over lunch to excise SIL from child caretaker responsibilities. That is a burden lifted. She was never designated the trustee of our funds, but at least now she won't be the custodian of our kids either.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Good for you, Fuego. I am in process of updating our wills to change our executor to my BIL who will also oversee funds for our heirs (his and my sis' kids as well as lazy bro). He's a great guy, like yours.
We are the designated caretakers of their kids if they die, though, so I pray daily for their continued health--can you see us with 3 kids suddenly dropped on us out of the blue? Yikes!

 

[FUEGO]

We are the designated caretakers of their kids if they die, though, so I pray daily for their continued health--can you see us with 3 kids suddenly dropped on us out of the blue? Yikes!

It's not that bad. Just keep the toilet lids open and leave plenty of food out and they will be ok.

 

[FUEGO]

Update:

SIL threw herself a birthday party this weekend at her own house. At first just family showed up. Then a friend showed up with a bunch of carpets, rugs, etc. Then another 20-30 people showed up, ready for some friendly cutthroat gaming.

Eventually somebody busted out the cards and they started going at the gambling. There were a few WTF comments from family. Some directed at SIL. SIL sat down and gambled a little, receiving some money from her "friend" that she owes $$$$ to.

Needless to say, there were some pissed off people at this point. My other SIL quipped to DW and I that "wow, if she knew this is where the money was going, she never would have slipped a $20 into the birthday card". Being a holder of a crystal ball, I had preemptively told DW not to worry about any birthday cash because you know where it would go.

SIL played for a while, and eventually got up and went elsewhere.

About this time, I said "gee, I bet those roads are going to be getting more and more slick with all that snow, time to head home, huh?" and DW and I and some others got up and left. On the way home, DW told me she was about 10 seconds away from blowing up and making a scene and calling out her sister in front of everyone right before her sister walked away from the gambling area.

I guess SIL's month long hiatus from gambling is now officially over. From her perspective, I'm sure "it was just a little fun, no harm in that".

 

[Sarah in SC]

sigh...that sucks. Makes me glad I don't have that kind of monkey on my back, or those kind of "friends". Sorry, Fuego. Glad you saved the b-day money--and hey, if you want to tuck a little something, something in a birthday card....my 40th is coming up in 15 days!

 

[Bestwifeever]

Wow.

That scenario is almost a challenge by your SIL to her family, Fuego--right out in the open, in your face, and she's saying, "if you don't like it, too bad."

 

[FUEGO]

Wow.

That scenario is almost a challenge by your SIL to her family, Fuego--right out in the open, in your face, and she's saying, "if you don't like it, too bad."

I am a little surprised that nothing went down. Surprised that SIL's husband or father didn't run out and start yelling at everyone to get the **** out. We pretty much left out of disgust. I guess we have to establish ground rules before we go to her house for parties. DW usually asks - "are there going to be a bunch of people at this gathering or is it just close family" - and we don't go if it is the lots of people/gambling type of event.

Yes, I think this was an open challenge to the rest of the family. A way of saying "I'm a big independent girl and I can do whatever I want".

 

[Westernskies]

The sucking vortex of doom is accelerating.

 

[Gumby]

Sounds like the event horizon was passed long ago.

 

[Meadbh]

She's an addict. She's just as addicted as if this were heroin.

Intervention, perhaps?

 

[Urchina]

Thanks for the healthy dose of perspective. Maybe our family issues are a little more demanding than normal right now, but at least we're not dealing with an addiction on top of it.

More power and grace to your family. I'd say luck, but it sounds like that's a big part of the problem.

 

[FUEGO]

She's an addict. She's just as addicted as if this were heroin.

Intervention, perhaps?

Just got to let her hit bottom at this point I think. We had the mini-intervention in April and she has broken all the promises she made then.

If it were up to me, I would completely isolate my kids from her. Hard to do, since it is DW's sister. We have cut her out of the wills, so the isolation is there on a symbolic level for us.

 

[Leonidas]

Just got to let her hit bottom at this point I think. We had the mini-intervention in April and she has broken all the promises she made then.

It sounds like you're getting close to understanding how addiction and addicts work.

It's only being honest when I say that I admire your SiL's stones. Tossing out the rugs and cranking up the casino right in front of the whole crew that was at her intervention. Not sure how it would translate into the Laotian culture, but if she was Italian she basically just grabbed her crotch and said, "Hey, I got your intervention hanging right here!"

She's past the event horizon and hurtling right along toward the singularity and all that comes with that.

 

[obgyn65]

I agree with Meadbh

She's an addict. She's just as addicted as if this were heroin.

Intervention, perhaps?

 

[FUEGO]

It's only being honest when I say that I admire your SiL's stones. Tossing out the rugs and cranking up the casino right in front of the whole crew that was at her intervention. Not sure how it would translate into the Laotian culture, but if she was Italian she basically just grabbed her crotch and said, "Hey, I got your intervention hanging right here!"

She's past the event horizon and hurtling right along toward the singularity and all that comes with that.

Feet. Probably something related to feet. Maybe "she has just put her feet on my head". That would be very insulting in the Laotian culture.

I like all these black hole references. That is a very apt analogy. Money gets sucked in and never returns and you can't even see what is happening because not even light can escape the gravitational pull of the black hole.

 

[BTravlin]

I just found this thread today and have not read the entire thing so I hope I'm not repeating anything.

I hope everyone involved realizes you never give money to a gambler to pay their debts down because it will almost never make it that far. The mind of the gambling addict says to bet one more hand and turn that small stash into a bigger one so they can pay off more of their debts. And that of course never happens. WHOOSH! Gone.

If you ever agree to help a gambler with their debts make sure you pay them off in person and get a receipt or you might as well stoke the fireplace with it.

 

[Bestwifeever]

...If it were up to me, I would completely isolate my kids from her. Hard to do, since it is DW's sister. We have cut her out of the wills, so the isolation is there on a symbolic level for us.

Small saving grace but at least this addiction isn't one that alters the user's consciousness or personality like alcohol and drugs do, so your children shouldn't be physically at risk when they see her.