New Heat Pump Options

[Katsmeow]

You can still zone a one story if you want... say there is a hot side and a cold side of the house and the ducts are set up that the house can be split... we are talking dampers and a sensor, not two units.. heck, I know that our system can do at least 3 zones as I see that on the thermostat...

Oh, I understand. We had that at our old house. We had 3 but only one unit. Just that in this house it doesn't seem necessary.

 

[John Galt III]

*** The one I am interested in is the XR 16 which is a single stage, 17 SEER unit at $8830.72. He did not quote any two stage units. The other two he quoted were the XR 14 and XR 15 (16 SEER - $8402.32). *** I'm in eastern Pa and 2 neighbors had Trane XR13's installed in 2012 (inside and outside) for about $5,000 each. Maybe they've got a little cartel going out there in Texas?

 

[samclem]

I have a 1996 model Trane heat pump in my lake house. The A coil (evaporator) has a small leak and must be replaced. My HVAC guy says older Trane parts are double in cost of generic parts and they are hard to find.

He's not telling you that you must use a Trane evap coil, is he? Any evap coil that is the right physical size, BTU, and is fitted with the right TXV will work fine.

 

[Bamaman]

He's not telling you that you must use a Trane evap coil, is he? Any evap coil that is the right physical size, BTU, and is fitted with the right TXV will work fine.

The Trane A coil is taller than generic parts. No see no reason not to use whatever will fit.

It has been mentioned that prices group together on HVAC. That is a lack of competition and the fact that so many larger a/c companies are owned by manufacturers. Even the independents know what the other guys are charging and have fallen in line on pricing--often unreasonable prices.

 

[samclem]

The Trane A coil is taller than generic parts. No see no reason not to use whatever will fit.

If I were in your boots, I'd research this myself (maybe you have). I seriously doubt Trane makes their own A-style evap coils and that no one else makes one that will fit, but that's what I might say if I were an HVAC installer who had a special relationship with Trane.

It has been mentioned that prices group together on HVAC. That is a lack of competition and the fact that so many larger a/c companies are owned by manufacturers. Even the independents know what the other guys are charging and have fallen in line on pricing--often unreasonable prices.

There's definitely something going on. This HVAC equipment is now available direct to consumers, and the pricing is transparent. When I see what people are being charged (and the quotes I got from large HVAC companies in my area), the installation charges worked out to over $500 per manhour. So, something is definitely going on. Several installers have told me that the retail price Ia m paying for the equipment is slightly lower than they can get from their suppliers, so some of the costs are apparently due to the distribution channels being used. But I think the majority of the cost difference is in the installation.

I have saved a lot of money by doing much of the work myself. That means researching/choosing the right size and type of equipment, buying it, moving it into position and doing the duct connections, doing the electrical prep, getting the gas line and flex connector ready for hookup, running the new lineset into position, etc. They HVAC tech comes to do what he does best, and charges me for his expertise and time. But only the small HVAC companies are willing to do this.

The bigger retail outfits want to run customers through their process: The "comfort consultant" comes out to sell you the most expensive thing they can--while not knowing enough to actually evaluate something like a duct system, then the installer comes out with a semi-skilled assistant to do the installation as rapidly as possible, trying to make everything work within the scope of what the salesman spec'ed out, despite the realities and surprises they encounter during the job.

 

[Happyras]

If I were in your boots, I'd research this myself (maybe you have). I seriously doubt Trane makes their own A-style evap coils and that no one else makes one that will fit, but that's what I might say if I were an HVAC installer who had a special relationship with Trane.


There's definitely something going on. This HVAC equipment is now available direct to consumers, and the pricing is transparent. When I see what people are being charged (and the quotes I got from large HVAC companies in my area), the installation charges worked out to over $500 per manhour. So, something is definitely going on. Several installers have told me that the retail price Ia m paying for the equipment is slightly lower than they can get from their suppliers, so some of the costs are apparently due to the distribution channels being used. But I think the majority of the cost difference is in the installation.

I have saved a lot of money by doing much of the work myself. That means researching/choosing the right size and type of equipment, buying it, moving it into position and doing the duct connections, doing the electrical prep, getting the gas line and flex connector ready for hookup, running the new lineset into position, etc. They HVAC tech comes to do what he does best, and charges me for his expertise and time. But only the small HVAC companies are willing to do this.

The bigger retail outfits want to run customers through their process: The "comfort consultant" comes out to sell you the most expensive thing they can--while not knowing enough to actually evaluate something like a duct system, then the installer comes out with a semi-skilled assistant to do the installation as rapidly as possible, trying to make everything work within the scope of what the salesman spec'ed out, despite the realities and surprises they encounter during the job.

+1 I do my own, and typically buy from Ingrams Water and Air. My last 5 ton 14 SEER HP upgrade with new A-coil and TXV cost me $2200 delivered. I had fun getting installed quotes up to 10K for this job. It was in one of my commercial properties.

 

[CountryGal]

*** The one I am interested in is the XR 16 which is a single stage, 17 SEER unit at $8830.72. He did not quote any two stage units. The other two he quoted were the XR 14 and XR 15 (16 SEER - $8402.32). *** I'm in eastern Pa and 2 neighbors had Trane XR13's installed in 2012 (inside and outside) for about $5,000 each. Maybe they've got a little cartel going out there in Texas?

I am in eastern PA and have a 2016 estimate for Trane that I have not acted on yet. Want to get a few more this year. 1600 sq ft house.

XL 16i 8750. XL 18i 9370. XV 20i 13,650

 

[Breedlove]

Here is what you have to remember , it is easy to cool your house . But a correct A/C unit will dehumidify and make the house much more liveable .
A to big unit will kick on run shortly cool the house but never remove the humidity.


A friend of mine has an A/C company in Pearland Texas . He brags because he has 109 techs . I tried him on my installed unit . He was double the price. Told me the other guys were chop shops

 

[Katsmeow]

*** The one I am interested in is the XR 16 which is a single stage, 17 SEER unit at $8830.72. He did not quote any two stage units. The other two he quoted were the XR 14 and XR 15 (16 SEER - $8402.32). *** I'm in eastern Pa and 2 neighbors had Trane XR13's installed in 2012 (inside and outside) for about $5,000 each. Maybe they've got a little cartel going out there in Texas?

Were they heat pumps or conventional AC. Conventional AC (with gas furnace) was a little less. The quotes I gave above were for the Heat pump systems. Conventional XR 14 was $7549.57 and XR 14 SW model (16 SEER) was $7980.42. So the 16 Seer Heat Pump was about $500 more.

I am in eastern PA and have a 2016 estimate for Trane that I have not acted on yet. Want to get a few more this year. 1600 sq ft house.

XL 16i 8750. XL 18i 9370. XV 20i 13,650

I am guessing that since you are in PA that is for a conventional system and not a heat pump?

 

[John Galt III]

I am in eastern PA and have a 2016 estimate for Trane that I have not acted on yet. Want to get a few more this year. 1600 sq ft house.

XL 16i 8750. XL 18i 9370. XV 20i 13,650

Holy Cow. Was $8,750 the lowest price available?

 

[John Galt III]

Were they heat pumps or conventional AC. Conventional AC (with gas furnace) was a little less. The quotes I gave above were for the Heat pump systems. Conventional XR 14 was $7549.57 and XR 14 SW model (16 SEER) was $7980.42. So the 16 Seer Heat Pump was about $500 more.




The $5,000 was for heat pumps (same equipment provides heat in winter and coolth in summer). I'm stunned (or maybe not) that a 'basic' heat pump has gone up from $5,000 to $8,000 in just 6 years.

 

[Telly]

........

I would actually prefer to not have gas at all. I have 3 things that use gas:

1. Gas furnace

2. Gas water heater

3. Pool/spa heater

So, get rid of gas furnace and that just leaves gas water heater and pool/spa heater. We need to get a new water heater soon so I think I will get an electric hybrid.

That leaves only the pool/spa heater which is the problem. I hate to have to pay the gas connection fee just for the pool/spa (gas service here is over $30 a month even if you don't actually use any significant amount of gas).

We probably won't ever heat up the whole pool (we've had pools before and never did). But we will regularly heat up the spa (which is part of the pool). The pool guy recommended against a heat pump heater for the pool/spa since he says it will take too long to heat up the spa and will have difficulty in the winter.

But, I hate to have to pay for gas just to heat up the spa. I guess I could get a conventional electric heater? But know that is expensive. But, if I had no gas I could cancel the gas service entirely....

Seriously? Living in the Metroplex, give up on gas, and go all-electric instead?

Part of my daily morning walk is through an area that does not have gas. During late fall/winter/early spring, the heat pumps are all cranking away there. A friend over there would like to get gas, but has checked with the gas company, for them to extend a main is big $$, and everyone would have to ante up $ in advance. He talked with his neighbors, it's not going to happen. He misses having gas.

A gas furnace with A/C added is lower initial cost, simpler to maintain, and has a lower running cost. In my whole life, I have known only ONE person who lived in a gas area, and changed to all-electric. She had an unreasonable fear of gas. Not borne by any experiences, but by, um, what would one call it... mental state?

It takes an incredible amount of electricity to create large amounts of heat, which you would need for an in-ground pool's spa heater.

Since I do everything myself, and have for many decades, no way would I go with any sort of "hybrid" electric water heater. They are basically another A/C system, and very specialized, that removes heat from one place and transfers it to the water. Thereby cooling the area where the water heater is located. That area needs to stay hot enough, or else the transfer efficiency drops, like the COP of heat pumps. To say nothing of the initial cost and complexity, which you throw out when the tank ages out, to start all over again. Chemical fuels (like natural gas) are GREAT for heating!

 

[Katsmeow]

Seriously? Living in the Metroplex, give up on gas, and go all-electric instead?

Oh, well, we all like different things. Actually several people have told me that heat pumps are very, very, very common in this area for new systems. One of the people who gave us a quote (who actually is not that sold on heat pumps) said that some companies in the area sell nothing else. My research indicates that this is a great area for a heat pump being overall less expensive in the long run when all costs are considered.

As far as the hybrid water heater is concerned I actually had one at a past house. I liked it.

As far as the pool, that is a more difficult question. I haven't decided what I will do yet. I've had pools at two prior houses and and basically never used the pool heater for heating the entire pool. If it was cold enough that the pool wasn't warm enough to swim in I just didn't swim in it. The pool heater was used solely to heat the spa. I recognized heating with electric heat is more expensive for a spa. The thing I am not sure is how much more expensive.

Bear in mind that you pay over $30 a month for the gas connection even if you aren't using any gas at all. So that has to be factored in when considering that that is an expense I wouldn't have if I had no gas service. That is, the cost of electric to heat the spa has to be more than $30 a month before I would save money using gas. I'm not sure that the cost of electric do that would be $30 a month. I am not saying it wouldn't be. I just don't know. So - after considering the cost of the gas connection how much more would it cost per month to heat the spa with electric rather than gas. $0? Or $10? In those cases, I go electric. On the other hand, if it $100 more a month net cost to heat the spa with electric then I would keep the gas heat for the pool and perhaps the water heater (I would still get the heat pump).

As for the safety of gas, I do think that gas is less safe than electric. I think that is simply a fact. Now -- at my last house I had gas service. That was what made sense at that house at the time (the house had existing gas cooktop and gas tankless water heater when we moved in). That said, I don't think that preferring all electric makes one mentally unstable.

 

[Telly]

........ Actually several people have told me that heat pumps are very, very, very common in this area for new systems........

I'm not surprised by that. Homebuilders are forever looking to find ways to reduce their cost, a large cost being labor, particularly labor with some skill. It is much quicker to run a heavy Romex to different places in a house than it is to run gas pipe. Furthermore, since all houses will have electrical service anyway, the heating via electricity is an add-on, unlike gas, which requires a tap-in at the street main, service line to house, meter and regulator, etc. etc.

And price-point of the houses figures into it, too. In my area, there was incredible growth since about year 2000. The new houses being built were primarily two-story, all have gas, with multiple HVAC systems. Some have three systems. They are not cheaper houses, that's for sure!
We have a 2500+ sq. ft. single-story house that was built before the boom. We have two units, as the house is nicely divided between living area and bedrooms, and lends itself well to day/night reversal of occupancy, therefore thermostat settings.

Spa heater - I would suggest before making any decision, to look at the BTU per hour output rates of gas versus electric heaters. You may find that electrical units available with reasonable mechanics are too low of output. Like may be fine in say San Antonio or Austin, but not here. A mistake would be very $$$ to fix!

That said, I don't think that preferring all electric makes one mentally unstable.

No, certainly not. I used that example because of how rare it is, it was the only example I have of anyone having all the gas fixtures ripped out and going all-electric, and that was in a northern climate. She really did have unreasonable fears, though it seems not of fire! She was a "gardener", whose idea of gardening was to rip out just about anything green, pile it into her barrel she used for burning stuff, and having pre-stuffed the bottom of it with newspaper, setting it alight. But it belched out smoke and noxious smells, no flame, for many many hours. Of which she wasn't home, she'd head out for an afternoon of shopping while it gassed the neighborhood. I think her deck count was below 52.

 

[ncbill]

replacing a gas-fired water heater with an electric heat pump water heater adds complexity & expense.

natural gas is so cheap I now set auxiliary heat (gas furnace) full-time on my heat pump in the winter to save wear & tear on the compressor.

plus I get 120+ ºF heat vs 105-110 ºF heat from the register that way.

 

[samclem]

I would actually prefer to not have gas at all. I have 3 things that use gas:

1. Gas furnace

2. Gas water heater

3. Pool/spa heater

Another point: Check to assure your current electrical panel has slots for/can handle the additional large amperage these appliances draw. The hardware for a new panel isn't very expensive, but the labor to install one can run thousands of dollars. That will buy a lot of baseline natural gas service at $30/month.
At the risk of , I wouldn't get rid of the gas appliances--they are very cost efficient for heating water and air.

 

[Katsmeow]

Another point: Check to assure your current electrical panel has slots for/can handle the additional large amperage these appliances draw. The hardware for a new panel isn't very expensive, but the labor to install one can run thousands of dollars. That will buy a lot of baseline natural gas service at $30/month.
At the risk of , I wouldn't get rid of the gas appliances--they are very cost efficient for heating water and air.

I have already had an electrician out. Due to the heat pump I will need a new sub-panel. I would probably need it fairly soon even without the heat pump as there isn't much room left on the panel and we are doing some remodeling. Sub-panel is about $1500 less expensive than replacing the entire panel. Only downside is that, well, you have two panels. But mine is in the garage and there is plenty of room on that wall.

No one recommends that I get a new conventional AC and keep the existing gas furnace as it is 16 years old. I did ask if I should use gas for auxiliary heat for the heat pump. No one thinks that is a good idea either. The recommend the electric for the auxiliary heat.

Anyway - I probably will end up keeping the gas pool heater. My research seens to indicate that a heat pump pool heater would be far less expensive to run than a gas pool heater. And, if I just had a pool and wanted a heater that would be the preferable way to go if I just wanted to extend my swimming for a couple of months.

But - the problem with heating the spa part of the pool is two fold. It can't really do it once the weather is below about 55. That isn't an issue for me because I won't be using the spa when it is below 55. I am sensitive to cold and break out in hives in exposed to cold air. Just going to and from the pool would be a problem.

The issue issue is a problem. That is, the heat pump can heat up the spa fine about 55 degrees. But -- it is very slow at doing it. Some people constantly keep their pool heater on to raise the pool a few degrees and that is fine as the electric is inexpensive. But, spas have to go to a much higher temperature. The heat pump can basically do it, but it could take several hours once the weather is cooler (say, in the 70s). I don't much like the idea of that.

So -- probably I will keep the gas heater for the pool.

The water heater I am much more uncertain about. I have had a conventional gas water heater, gas tankless and electric hybrid. I liked the gas tankless the best. But, that was in a house that already had one when I moved in. I loved it, but they are very expensive to install. So, just not sure that is worth it. The electric hybrid heater (I had that at a house where my options were electric and propane -- no gas service available) actually was very simple to use and worked great. It was in the utility room and drew heat from the air in the house.

The water heater is not urgent to repair. It is a little long in the tooth but doesn't require immediate repair. However, I am doing some remodeling that will likely require moving it. If I do that I may replace it at the time...just not sure what with.

 

[CountryGal]

Were they heat pumps or conventional AC. Conventional AC (with gas furnace) was a little less. The quotes I gave above were for the Heat pump systems. Conventional XR 14 was $7549.57 and XR 14 SW model (16 SEER) was $7980.42. So the 16 Seer Heat Pump was about $500 more.









I am guessing that since you are in PA that is for a conventional system and not a heat pump?

Heat pumps! Replacing both outside and inside unit (“which must work well together”).

 

[Lukeee]

+1 I do my own, and typically buy from Ingrams Water and Air. My last 5 ton 14 SEER HP upgrade with new A-coil and TXV cost me $2200 delivered. I had fun getting installed quotes up to 10K for this job. It was in one of my commercial properties.

Got a couple of quotes just north of $15K for a 5Ton 16 seer from a big company. $5-6K for a similar unit from an independent. He said most jobs take about 6 hours (I assume a 2 man crew). So for $10K extra, I wonder what extra services the big company is going to do for me. I’m not sure which industry is more slimy...the used car industry or the AC industry.

 

[Texas Proud]

Since you already have gas there, why would they recommend electric heat?


IOW, gas is much better than electric when heating a house... now, the cost of the gas heater might be so much higher that it does not pay for itself, but that would be the only reason I would go electric...

 

[Breedlove]

After spending my life in the Oilpatch and having some interest in gas wells . Plus being very honest . There is no energy better then Natural Gas . Clean efficient . You turn on Natural Gas immediately it is working for you . Electric takes a few minutes , just like your gas stove.

 

[ncbill]

Since you already have gas there, why would they recommend electric heat?


IOW, gas is much better than electric when heating a house... now, the cost of the gas heater might be so much higher that it does not pay for itself, but that would be the only reason I would go electric...

Sounds like she has multiple systems.

E.g. a conventional split A/C (with ducts) and a gas boiler (radiators) for heat.

Here the air handler for my (one) heat pump contains the gas furnace - the "A" coil for A/C is mounted above.

Again, there's less wear & tear on the compressor by forcing auxiliary heat which uses the gas furnace for heating in the winter.