HVAC replacement advice

[MichaelB]

I have to get a new central air conditioner and am getting quotes. In our case the compressor is out back and the air handler in the attic. I asked for 3 options, a single stage, a 2 stage and a heat pump. I’m getting quotes for Carrier, Trane and Lennox systems. We currently have a Carrier, and from what I’ve read there really doesn’t seem to be that much difference between those 3 manufacturers. They all have heat strips in the air handler, and we may use the heater a couple of times during the winter, but not regularly.

The Carrier quote doesn’t include a 2 stage, the rep said the space in the attic is too limited.

The Trane quote this morning was unusual. They offered a 2 stage heat pump for the same price as the 2 stage AC. There’s a rebate for the heat pump so it would actually be close to $2k less expensive than the 2 stage and even cheaper than the single stage AC.

It looks like a great deal. The catch is the heal pump was built in 2022 and has been sitting unopened in their warehouse since then. It is warranted as new.

Is 1-2 years sitting there unopened a major concern? Full warranty is in place, and it gets twice yearly service.

Also, since we don’t use the heater often, is there any other meaningful difference between a 2 stage ac vs the heat pump?

 

[Sunset]

As to the storage question, considering the device should work 20 years, seems like a good deal if the warranty is for a few years.

 

[GrayHare]

Note some systems grant you no control over NOT energizing the heat strips but rather engage them automatically. My experience with Trane and Carrier says both do that with very poor logic. For example, outdoor temp 50, indoor 65, with thermostat requesting 70. Both Trane and Carrier will turn on the heat strips if the heat pump is not very swiftly raising the indoor temperature. IMO that's very wasteful when the indoor oudoor temperature differential is small.

 

[MichaelB]

Note some systems grant you no control over NOT energizing the heat strips but rather engage them automatically. My experience with Trane and Carrier says both do that with very poor logic. For example, outdoor temp 50, indoor 65, with thermostat requesting 70. Both Trane and Carrier will turn on the heat strips if the heat pump is not very swiftly raising the indoor temperature. IMO that's very wasteful when the indoor oudoor temperature differential is small.

We are in South Florida, so it usually doesn’t get really cold. I asked about how the system chose between heat pump and heat strip and the rep responded the heat strips are not optional but they don’t connect them.

 

[W2R]

The following is written with considerable respect and a genuine effort to be helpful.

I don't know the answers to any technical questions, since I don't try to BECOME the expert; instead, I choose the most expert, best technically qualified, experienced, and trustworthy company to be the one that acquires and installs the HVAC. These are men who have devoted their entire lives to learning all about HVAC choices, installation, maintenance, etc. Then I let these genuine experts do the job that I hired them to do, and rely upon their expertise and not the expertise of anonymous, unknown people on a message board. Not to put down the latter! You all are great but we all have our limits.

I determine which company meets those criteria, by personal recommendations of multiple people from our community who we trust, who have used the company for decades. The company that installed my present HVAC has done so for Frank's uncle and the rest of his family for decades with consistently stellar results. Their business relies heavily on word-of-mouth and on their impeccable reputation among long time residents here.

When they came by to see the house, we had a consultation with them in which they recommended a certain size/power of system, and recommended a Trane. They asked various questions along the line of "do you want this or that?", and I answered "what do YOU think would be best? What are the pros and cons of each choice? If I was your mom, which would you tell me to choose? I know that you know what you are doing, so help me out here." Then I went with their recommendations and have never had a better HVAC system in my life.

Yeah, it's more work to find an expert worth trusting, and certainly less fun than trying to learn all about the HVAC business from scratch. But IMO the results are far better. YMMV

Oh, another thing, I have found that the actual value of having an excellent HVAC system in New Orleans, in terms of quality of life, is far greater in reality than it seems in the abstract. So I'd say, "don't cheap out" (I doubt you would, but had to say it).

 

[GrayHare]

One option you might consider is having the heat strips connected but their circuit breaker left switched off. That way you could manually flip those breakers on during an unusual cold spell. As you may know, circuit breakers are not designed for frequent switching, so such a manual option would be for infrequent use only.

 

[pacergal]

I would not worry about a "new in the box" unit manufactured a couple years ago, especially if they will honor a full warranty.
I discovered, accidentally, (and a few years after installation--that is a different story) that my new furnace unit was a couple years old, but installed as "new" and guaranteed.
When I found out and came here with questions, many said that it should work just fine. And it has. It is now almost 10 years old.

 

[latexman]

Is the warranty from date of mnfr or date of installation? I suspect from date of installation, but since it's been sitting 2 years, I'd be doubly sure about that.

 

[MichaelB]

Is the warranty from date of mnfr or date of installation? I suspect from date of installation, but since it's been sitting 2 years, I'd be doubly sure about that.

The rep said warranty astarte from day of install, but I do want to see that in the proposal.

 

[MichaelB]

The following is written with considerable respect and a genuine effort to be helpful.

I don't know the answers to any technical questions, since I don't try to BECOME the expert; instead, I choose the most expert, best technically qualified, experienced, and trustworthy company to be the one that acquires and installs the HVAC. These are men who have devoted their entire lives to learning all about HVAC choices, installation, maintenance, etc. Then I let these genuine experts do the job that I hired them to do, and rely upon their expertise and not the expertise of anonymous, unknown people on a message board. Not to put down the latter! You all are great but we all have our limits.

I determine which company meets those criteria, by personal recommendations of multiple people from our community who we trust, who have used the company for decades. The company that installed my present HVAC has done so for Frank's uncle and the rest of his family for decades with consistently stellar results. Their business relies heavily on word-of-mouth and on their impeccable reputation among long time residents here.

When they came by to see the house, we had a consultation with them in which they recommended a certain size/power of system, and recommended a Trane. They asked various questions along the line of "do you want this or that?", and I answered "what do YOU think would be best? What are the pros and cons of each choice? If I was your mom, which would you tell me to choose? I know that you know what you are doing, so help me out here." Then I went with their recommendations and have never had a better HVAC system in my life.

Yeah, it's more work to find an expert worth trusting, and certainly less fun than trying to learn all about the HVAC business from scratch. But IMO the results are far better. YMMV

Oh, another thing, I have found that the actual value of having an excellent HVAC system in New Orleans, in terms of quality of life, is far greater in reality than it seems in the abstract. So I'd say, "don't cheap out" (I doubt you would, but had to say it).

Thanks for sharing your views.

I’m definitely not looking for the least expensive option. In fact, just the opposite. Looking for a reputable HVAC business isn’t easy in South Fl, most haven’t been around for decades, and we haven’t either. Through experience we have identified some we won’t work with.

 

[Aerides]

I’m getting quotes for Carrier, Trane and Lennox systems. We currently have a Carrier, and from what I’ve read there really doesn’t seem to be that much difference between those 3 manufacturers.

I don't know much else other than to share our story about possible replacements. We had our whole house ducts repaired by a (established, reputable...) S.Fla air company last summer. That event came with some issues I won't bother with here, but ended with the CEO spending half a day in our house, which you can imagine only happened after escalation and him realizing he had to help.

They were, at the time, recommending we replace our Lennox unit with a bigger Carrier. One of the problems they were trying to solve was one of capacity - them claiming we needed more of it. They were giving us quotes for Carrier, but we had a Lennox, and their duct-sales guy had previously told me Lennox was a great brand, so we were curious why they were now so enthusiastic about Carrier.

The CEO's answer? Lennox was a great brand, but the past couple of years....not so much. Today, our repair calls are all for Lennox. We can't keep Lennox parts in stock enough. We love to sell Carrier because they are dependable and don't break down even half as much. As a company, they are easier to deal with and easier to get parts and units. If we do have to repair them, we know we can do it the same day.

So, just one experience, but in S.Fla. We still have our Lennox, it runs just fine, but that conversation will impact my decision when we look in the future for a new unit.

 

[Chuckanut]

Will a two year heat pump meet the performance standards necessary to get the Federal tax credit?

I am not familiar with the history of energy efficiency standards. I did check my heat pump to make sure it qualified for the recent Federal tax credit.

 

[REWahoo]

Will a two year heat pump meet the performance standards necessary to get the Federal tax credit?

I am not familiar with the history energy efficiency standards. I did check my heat pump to make sure it qualified for the recent Federal tax credit.

This is an excellent point. I understand big changes in HVAC efficiency requirements went into effect on 1/1/23 and a unit that old may not meet those new standards and qualify for the $2K tax credit. I would definitely want to see written proof.

 

[REWahoo]

The CEO's answer? Lennox was a great brand, but the past couple of years....not so much. Today, our repair calls are all for Lennox. We can't keep Lennox parts in stock enough. We love to sell Carrier because they are dependable and don't break down even half as much. As a company, they are easier to deal with and easier to get parts and units. If we do have to repair them, we know we can do it the same day.

FWIW, I heard a similar story re Lennox when I was researching preferred brands for a recent HVAC replacement. Lennox apparently ran into huge supply issues during Covid and has struggled to recover.

 

[HF63]

Please do not forget to request a load calculation to determine the equipment size.

 

[Music Lover]

Please do not forget to request a load calculation to determine the equipment size.

I once had an estimate for a furnace that was more than double the size required. I know this because I just had a blower door test along with extensive questions and measurements of the insulation and windows.

Their "load calculation" was asking how many sq ft my house was. Insulation levels and the type of windows (I had low E triple pane) didn't even come up.

 

[REWahoo]

Thanks for sharing your views.

I’m definitely not looking for the least expensive option. In fact, just the opposite. Looking for a reputable HVAC business isn’t easy in South Fl, most haven’t been around for decades, and we haven’t either. Through experience we have identified some we won’t work with.

Finding a reputable HVAC business appears to be a challenge no matter where you are located. My guess is the degree of challenge increases with the temperature, at least for those of us who live in the heat belt.

I did run across a company here in TX that, at least to me, stood out from most others. They are regional, servicing Dallas, Austin and San Antonio, have been in business for several years and the only "advertising" they do is via YouTube (I refuse to get quotes from any HVAC company advertising on TV - but maybe that's just me). Their videos are informative and educational and don't overtly attempt to sell their services.

The thing I found most unusual about the company is that they have an online calculator that will allow you to build and price out your own complete system. That's something I've not seen from any other HVAC business. It's here if you want to play with it: https://shop.atlasacrepair.com/. Click on "Build Your Package"

 

[Walt34]

I would not worry about a "new in the box" unit manufactured a couple years ago, especially if they will honor a full warranty.

This. As long as it's been kept dry, and not out in a leaky shed with rainwater dripping on it (very doubtful) sitting "on the shelf" for a few years shouldn't make any difference in longevity or reliability once put into service.

 

[nphx]

https://www.acwholesalers.com/ i bought from a few times for both DIY and local expert assistance install. They now have a referral program for installers so you can see the pricing of units and the installer does a real service fee on top of that instead of inflating both.

 

[Happyras]

To answer your one question, yes, the big difference is the reversing valve and TXV on the evaporator. (heat pump versus AC) More parts (minor) to fail. I keep a spare reversing valve and filters in my stock pile, along with ignitors and flame sensors for furnaces in my various buildings.

The other question depends on your goal. Do you want or need the latest and greatest most efficient design? The 2 year old model may not be a high HSPF or SEER rating, as the newer model year, but could you even see much difference in energy cost for your area to offset the equipment price?

I would jump on the Trane so to speak and take the deal, unless there is some tax rebate issue to make a cost difference. I doubt it for a 2 stage scroll compressor system, it is likely well within HSPF rating required. I have to disagree with W2R. The HVAC cartel here in WA state is strong and most are sales people trained to take advantage of the uninformed market and sell way more than needed. A fully honest HVAC company could not make enough money to stay in business, as most systems can be repaired even for the worst failures.

Knowing and have read the service manuals for many brands, there is really not much that really requires 2 service visits/yr for maintenance unless maybe you do not know how to change a filter. Even a tear down and flush out of a secondary heat exchanger on a HE gas furnace is not even a 10 year thing to do.

Personally, I am leaning more toward non-central systems. Mini-splits are super high efficient, heat/cool the specific room. They have DC variable speed compressors and operate at very high efficiencies. SEER 23 for mini-splits versus 16 to 19 for most 2 stage older heat pumps. All depends on spaces being conditioned.

A lot more detail would be needed to make a clear decision, but certainly it is not clear what went wrong with your current AC to warrant new in the first place. Maybe it just needs a new condenser?

 

[MichaelB]

Will a two year heat pump meet the performance standards necessary to get the Federal tax credit?

I am not familiar with the history of energy efficiency standards. I did check my heat pump to make sure it qualified for the recent Federal tax credit.

This is an excellent point. I understand big changes in HVAC efficiency requirements went into effect on 1/1/23 and a unit that old may not meet those new standards and qualify for the $2K tax credit. I would definitely want to see written proof.

Written proof has proven to be elusive. I scoured the Train web site, the Energy Star website, and then called customer service. This specific model has the necessary SEER rating but doesn’t appear on the Energy Star list. A larger model is on the list. It also isn’t on the Train website list of eligible models. Customer Service did not answer that question, instead they just referred me back to the website. In this case I conclude absence of proof is proof of absence and there is no credit for this model, which is why it’s sitting in the warehouse.

I can’t affirm the sales rep actually told me the credit applied, but we did discuss it, I made it clear it was a critical factor and he was encouraging. Leaves a bit of sour taste. I think I’ll contact another Trane dealer for a quote. The 2 stage option is interesting (and pricey).

 

[audreyh1]

Did you check going through Costco?

 

[Masquernom]

I did a little research when we purchased our current home about its AC unit. If you read the online HVAC forums, you'll find there are two camps. The HVAC engineers say to size the unit per the software evaluation of the home. That way the unit will be smaller, run longer without cycling, and dehumidify the home. The HVAC installers, meanwhile, will tell you to install a bigger unit just based on the home's square footage. It will cool down the home really fast, and the customers will not complain.

 

[Aerides]

Did you check going through Costco?

I tried that 2 years ago. The biggest slickest sales job. Salesmen - two! - not techies, showed up with laminated presentation slides. Their prices were orders of magnitude higher than the other companies we were getting quotes from, but their charts were promoting the costco discounts (even down to the 2% back I'd get with my rebate credit card)... They called and texted repeatedly in the days after, with a really off putting push to close NOW, deal is ticking away... etc. Very off-putting. I felt like I needed a shower after they left.

I did a little research when we purchased our current home about its AC unit. If you read the online HVAC forums, you'll find there are two camps. The HVAC engineers say to size the unit per the software evaluation of the home. That way the unit will be smaller, run longer without cycling, and dehumidify the home. The HVAC installers, meanwhile, will tell you to install a bigger unit just based on the home's square footage. It will cool down the home really fast, and the customers will not complain.

In S.Fla, and probably other areas with high humidity, we learned it's bad to have too big of a unit. Your house will cool great and cool fast, but too fast to clear the humidity. Then over time you risk mold. It's not just as simple as square footage, as roof, windows, exposure, can make a big house need less and a small house need more, but it's still a bad idea to oversize.

 

[Piper20]

Depending on the unit there is a target to set the humidity on the thermostat. On a 2 stage it should run on the lower speed and reduce airflow across the coil to reduce the indoor humidity.