Self Protection

[Cal]

I would use a knife if I had to, but,


2) It would probably take a lot longer to kill the guy, unless I hit his heart.

Is your intent to protect yourself or to kill?

 

[greg]

Order, Disorder, and superficial order.

In our society we have a sense of, or desire for, deep orderliness. We like to know how things and people will be behave in the world--even hurricanes. We have an expectation of orderliness in people too. And when the rules of orderliness are broken, we expect the police to come and fix things for us. That's why they are paid. That's why we have a court system and a jails. Sometimes the police don't come, and at those times we may or may not need guns to restore a sort of superficial order. But it is very superficial at best, and, at least in one sense, only one form of disorder (armed citizens who perhaps should wait for the police) facing off against another form of disorder--and canceling out one or both disorders--or not.

What we should strive for is a strong sense of orderliness that runs deep into the soul, deep into the hearts and minds of individuals, and deep into social group consciousness. Accomplishing such good ends is difficult and complex. Time, money and lots of human thinking and acting are required to do them.

Guns and talking about them during disorderly times, for the most part, are a visceral, superfical reaction to fear--to my mind anyway.

--Greg

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I should have learned to stay out of these, except for the silly stuff thats hard to ignore.

I've owned guns, and I used to teach overprivileged kids to shoot .22's 20-something years ago. They're fine tools in the right hands.

The things that bother me are the funny statistics and anecdotes people use to defend the 'right' of ownership. 99.5% of the time, they're oddballs, spun badly, or rather unique.

I would think that many here would trust me to at least some degree when it comes to statistics and weaning the good from the bad stat. If thats so, trust that I have seen absolutely no concrete data that says you are safer owning a gun than not owning one.

In clean statistics, you are far more likely to not be able to reach your gun, have your gun stolen, have a friend or family member shoot themselves with it (or you shoot them accidentally), have it taken away from you by an intruder, or shoot at but fail to hit or disable the intruder with your gun than you are to save yourself from a life threatening situation. Even in a life threatening situation where you 'protect' yourself, you are quite likely to cause harm or loss of life that may place you in a situation where you may be prosecuted for using the gun.

It bothers me a lot when someone with an opinion so twists and tortures data to prove their point.

The biggest flaw in logic though is presuming everyone who owns a gun will be as well minded and mannered as you are. Remember all the idiots who do all the idiotic things you see each and every day? A lot of them own guns and will use them when the situation isnt warranted.

But the genie is out of the bottle in this country, so debate is irrelevant.

For me, three 100lb dogs, good locks on the doors, windows that are hard to break, an alarm, and a pepper spray container and baseball bat are good enough.

But then I might enjoy one of them 'close encounters in the dark'...

 

[Caroline]

But the thought of having a gun in my home....I think it would prey on my mind, like the telltale heart or the ring of power. It would disturb my sense of safety rather than enhance it.

This was exactly my problem when I had my gun in the house.  I initially bought it for target practice with my boyfriend.  (I'm pretty good too, btw.) 

But having it in the house made me consider it for self-defense, and THAT made me increasingly paranoid.  Where should I keep it so as to be readily available to me in emergency?  How would I know, when I returned to the house after shopping, etc., whether someone was in the hosue and had found it?  What if an intruder got into my bedroom before I woke up enough to react?  (Happened to a friend of mine.)  Maybe I need one of those safes that only open with a thumbprint?  What about a trigger lock to protect my nieces and nephews, and how quickly could I remove one if need be?

So I started to double- and triple-check the exterior doors, installed an extra lock on my bedroom door, considered a dog to help alert me...  and on and on.

Finally, I put the thing in my friend's safe.  I can get it any time I want it for target practice, and I sleep better too. 

I agree with what someone else said earlier...  if I feel the need to arm myself in this neighborhood, I'll just move.

 

[Nords]

This was exactly my problem when I had my gun in the house.  I initially bought it for target practice with my boyfriend.  (I'm pretty good too, btw.) 

What an interesting idea. Most people use paper or metal targets but I can see a lot of advantages to practicing on a moving target. Is this the same BF that does all the cooking? No wonder.

I bet it's hard on the relationship, though... how do you decide when target practice is over?

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I should have learned to stay out of these, except for the silly stuff thats hard to ignore.

I've owned guns, and I used to teach overprivileged kids to shoot .22's 20-something years ago.  They're fine tools in the right hands.

The things that bother me are the funny statistics and anecdotes people use to defend the 'right' of ownership.  99.5% of the time, they're oddballs, spun badly, or rather unique.

I would think that many here would trust me to at least some degree when it comes to statistics and weaning the good from the bad stat.  If thats so, trust that I have seen absolutely no concrete data that says you are safer owning a gun than not owning one.

In clean statistics, you are far more likely to not be able to reach your gun, have your gun stolen, have a friend or family member shoot themselves with it (or you shoot them accidentally), have it taken away from you by an intruder, or shoot at but fail to hit or disable the intruder with your gun than you are to save yourself from a life threatening situation. Even in a life threatening situation where you 'protect' yourself, you are quite likely to cause harm or loss of life that may place you in a situation where you may be prosecuted for using the gun.

It bothers me a lot when someone with an opinion so twists and tortures data to prove their point.

The biggest flaw in logic though is presuming everyone who owns a gun will be as well minded and mannered as you are.  Remember all the idiots who do all the idiotic things you see each and every day?  A lot of them own guns and will use them when the situation isnt warranted.

But the genie is out of the bottle in this country, so debate is irrelevant.

For me, three 100lb dogs, good locks on the doors, windows that are hard to break, an alarm, and a pepper spray container and baseball bat are good enough.

But then I might enjoy one of them 'close encounters in the dark'...

It's been a while since I had a "close encounter in the dark". As far as the
"genie out of the bottle", may it ever be thus.

JG

 

[BigMoneyJim]

But having it in the house made me consider it for self-defense, and THAT made me increasingly paranoid. Where should I keep it so as to be readily available to me in emergency? How would I know, when I returned to the house after shopping, etc., whether someone was in the hosue and had found it? What if an intruder got into my bedroom before I woke up enough to react? (Happened to a friend of mine.) Maybe I need one of those safes that only open with a thumbprint? What about a trigger lock to protect my nieces and nephews, and how quickly could I remove one if need be?

Those are the reasons I've decided not to get a gun so far...because the only way I'd accept it is to have it unloaded and locked up.

My first defense against a home intruder would be to jump out the window or lunge at him like a deranged bear depending on a snap judgement. Actually I guess the first defense would be shouting when I hear them at the door. When I was in my teens we lived in a house with window air conditioners, and we had cardboard taped to fill the gap between the A/C unit and the window. One night I was in the house alone and I heard someone start messing with the cardboard. I said in the deepest voice I could muster "what the hell is that?" But the noise continued. Whoever it was wasn't afraid of me and that scared me quite a bit. Then the cat's paw came through the cardboard and she pushed her way in.

A gun purchase for me would be largely recreational with doses of calamity insurance and whatever it is we guys have about guns.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Those are the reasons I've decided not to get a gun so far...because the only way I'd accept it is to have it unloaded and locked up.

My first defense against a home intruder would be to jump out the window or lunge at him like a deranged bear depending on a snap judgement. Actually I guess the first defense would be shouting when I hear them at the door. When I was in my teens we lived in a house with window air conditioners, and we had cardboard taped to fill the gap between the A/C unit and the window. One night I was in the house alone and I heard someone start messing with the cardboard. I said in the deepest voice I could muster "what the hell is that?" But the noise continued. Whoever it was wasn't afraid of me and that scared me quite a bit. Then the cat's paw came through the cardboard and she pushed her way in.

A gun purchase for me would be largely recreational with doses of calamity insurance and whatever it is we guys have about guns.

An unloaded/locked up gun is useless. If that is your intent, just save your money.

JG

 

[retire@40]

Is your intent to protect yourself or to kill?

If someone breaks into my house, my predetermined assumption is that he may kill me or my family, so yes, my intent would be to kill the intruder before he kills me or my family. And I would kill the intruder with a gun, a knife, a club, or whatever else I could use.

 

[Craig]

SG, I'm a bit fascinated that your evidence above is based upon 48 responses in an internet forum poll.  There is conflicting evidence about how many crimes are stopped by armed citizens ... as noted above, usually no shots are fired.  And, the media is loathe to report successful civilian efforts at armed self defense. 

For those who have never trained with firearms, aren't aware of the great many practical products now available to properly secure firearms (loaded, and ready to use), and especially have either not been nor know law enforcement officers ("LEO's") ...  there is an understandable tendency to see gun ownership as dangerous, impractical and unnecessary.

But they are just tools that can be stored and used safely, with training and care. 

With very, very few exceptions, the LEO's I've known privately tell you they think it is foolish for people to be unable to protect themselves and their families until the professionals / LEO's arrive.  Check the stat's on 911 responses.  They usually arrive after the violence is over.  And, common law precedent confirms that LEO's do not have a duty nor liability when it comes to protecting your life.

At the end of the day, as long as folks grant each other the freedom (barring convicted violent felons ...) to own and bear arms, then the balance is just fine.  To each his own.

Here's to hoping that none of us on this forum ever find ourselves in a NOLA situation, or come under violent criminal attack.

[Unfortunately, my wife and I have both encountered violence ... she and a girlfriend found a boyfriend murdered, just for a small amount of cash ... my sister-in-law was raped at an ATM, and left bleeding in the bushes ... and a Controller who used to work for me was strangled by a hit man hired by her ex. Could any of them have stopped those crimes? We'll never know ... they never had the chance, as these crimes occurred before concealed carry laws.]

 

[sgeeeee]

SG, I'm a bit fascinated that your evidence above is based upon 48 responses in an internet forum poll.  There is conflicting evidence about how many crimes are stopped by armed citizens ... as noted above, usually no shots are fired.  And, the media is loathe to report successful civilian efforts at armed self defense. 

For those who have never trained with firearms, aren't aware of the great many practical products now available to properly secure firearms (loaded, and ready to use), and especially have either not been nor know law enforcement officers ("LEO's") ...  there is an understandable tendency to see gun ownership as dangerous, impractical and unnecessary.

But they are just tools that can be stored and used safely, with training and care. 

With very, very few exceptions, the LEO's I've known privately tell you they think it is foolish for people to be unable to protect themselves and their families until the professionals / LEO's arrive.  Check the stat's on 911 responses.  They usually arrive after the violence is over.  And, common law precedent confirms that LEO's do not have a duty nor liability when it comes to protecting your life.

At the end of the day, as long as folks grant each other the freedom (barring convicted violent felons ...) to own and bear arms, then the balance is just fine.  To each his own.

Here's to hoping that none of us on this forum ever find ourselves in a NOLA situation, or come under violent criminal attack.

[Unfortunately, my wife and I have both encountered violence ... she and a girlfriend found a boyfriend murdered, just for a small amount of cash ... my sister-in-law was raped at an ATM, and left bleeding in the bushes ... and a Controller who used to work for me was strangled by a hit man hired by her ex.  Could any of them have stopped those crimes?  We'll never know ... they never had the chance, as these crimes occurred before concealed carry laws.]

A number of people on this board are clearly tired of this discussion. They have openly encouraged me not to take the bait. I respect them. I will comply with their wishes.

 

[Craig]

Me too, SG. I didn't expect you to actually have facts to support your emotions anyway. We'll just walk on different sides of the street ...

 

[sgeeeee]

Me too, SG.  I didn't expect you to actually have facts to support your emotions anyway.  We'll just walk on different sides of the street ...

. . .

 

[SteveR]

SG,


Your self control is noteworthy.