Shut off valve (plumbing question)

[Jerry1]

I have a decision to make and hoping there might be someone that can give me some advice. The basic decision is whether to DIY or just call the plumber.

I have a multi turn valve that will not shut off. It really matters because it's the valve that shuts off water to my outdoor spigots. I shut off the water and even go ahead and blow out the pipe. I have to do this because I have no basement (slab) so the spigots are just run through the wall and are not the type with the long stem that goes into the basement where it's warm. In other words they'll freeze in the winter if I don't handle this.

The valve is a in line multi turn valve. I'm comfortable taking it apart and replacing the washer to see if that works. Better, and my question to the group, is if the stems are standard and I can just replace the inner workings. That way, I could just shut off the water for a few minutes, swap out the part and move on. Of course it's also possible that the stem is damaged and repair (adding a new washer) will not fix it and then a replacement would be my only option.

If the part is not standard and a washer will not work, I'll have to get a plumber to swap out the entire valve by cutting the copper and putting in a new valve. I can sweat pipe, but I'm not going to go there. Professionals do it so much better, I'd just suck it up at that point.

So, does anyone know if the insides of these valves are standard? I'm not sure what brand it is, but the logo on the valve is an "S" inside of a triangle. If they're not standard, maybe I can track down that manufacturer and get a replacement stem. I've tried, but getting nothing from an internet search. Thinking if I can't get any advise here, I'll try taking pictures of the valve to a plumbing supply store on Monday.

What do you think? Try to repair it or replace the inner works? Or, just call the plumber.

 

[RobbieB]

In line valves are usually gate type. There is a metal wedge that closes off the flow. They don't use washers and stems. I don't think they are repairable.

 

[samclem]

Sorry, I don't know if you can just substitute another stem. A lot would depend on the style of valve this is. Most of these valves are globe valves, and changing the washer is no more trouble than it would be to replace the stem. The washer is almost always the cause of the leak, though you may need to dress the surface it mates against, too. The risk is that you break the valve trying to get it apart so you can replace the washer, but that risk would be the same if you were swapping out the stem with a new one.


If I ended up calling a plumber, I'd really prefer not to ever have to call one again for the same thing. So, depending on the situation, I'd try to get him/her to cut out the valve, sweat in some copper-to-pex fittiings, splice in some PEX, and put the valve in the PEX. That way, changing out the entire valve is easy and cheap (if you've got PEX crimping tools, or are willing to use Sharkbite-style fittings).

 

[Hillbilly]

If I understand the valve type you are referring to, I did a couple of washer change outs over the summer. Like you, I thought about the inner part change out but finally decided if the washer didn't work, I was calling a plumber to replace the whole valve (I would have to cut all the water off to the house (need to get it right the first time/fast)).

 

[Jerry1]

Can you tell what kind of valve it is from a picture?

 

[Walt34]

For me this would be an easy decision. I hate plumbing and for me one of the luxuries of being FI is being able to call a plumber and not have to do anything more than write the check. That is soooo much easier than the six trips to the big box store that plumbing jobs normally involve!

 

[Jerry1]

If I understand the valve type you are referring to, I did a couple of washer change outs over the summer. Like you, I thought about the inner part change out but finally decided if the washer didn't work, I was calling a plumber to replace the whole valve (I would have to cut all the water off to the house (need to get it right the first time/fast)).

I'm assuming I'd have to shut the water off as the washer I need to get at (unless it's a gate valve), is inside the valve. It's not leaking from the stem. The issue is that it won't shut off the water flow. It gets down to a trickle, but that won't be good enough for winter.

 

[Jerry1]

For me this would be an easy decision. I hate plumbing and for me one of the luxuries of being FI is being able to call a plumber and not have to do anything more than write the check. That is soooo much easier than the six trips to the big box store that plumbing jobs normally involve!

I'm basically with you, but if I can just shut off the water, unscrew the stem and put on a new washer or install a new stem, I'm not worried about that at all.

Cutting it out and putting in a new valve will be a plumber's job if it comes to that.

 

[samclem]

Can you tell what kind of valve it is from a picture?

Yes, it appears to be a globe valve, and it has a drain. It looks like there's a union connection at the top of the photo, that's good news if the valve needs to eventually be cut out.


The hex nut on top is probably just the packing nut. To change out the washer, you'd need to turn that square nut that is below that, it will allow the part with the stem to come out and you can change the washer. If you decide to try this yourself, be sure to hold onto the valve body with a wrench and apply counter-force as you apply pressure to twist off the threaded top of the valve. Don't put much stress on those connecting pipes as you twist, or you could make a real mess.

 

[RobbieB]

Yeah that looks like a globe valve, should be easy to fix.

 

[Gumby]

I agree that it is a globe valve that can usually be fixed with a washer if you have a seat leak. However, if all it does is shutoff the water to your outdoor spigots, it should probably be a ball valve. A globe valve can throttle flow from high to low and in between, which you don't need to do. A ball valve is just on or off.

 

[Jerry1]

I agree that it is a globe valve that can usually be fixed with a washer if you have a seat leak. However, if all it does is shutoff the water to your outdoor spigots, it should probably be a ball valve. A globe valve can throttle flow from high to low and in between, which you don't need to do. A ball valve is just on or off.

Agree. If I get a new valve (plumber), it will be a ball valve.

 

[GravitySucks]

Second SamClems post.
Also, a little PB Blaster penetrating oil 5 minutes before might help.

 

[Winemaker]

Another solution would be to replace it with a Sharkbite valve, if it is permitted for use by your local authorities. I have used these in several hard to solder places.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBi...VcQtA0_qrXHEP403NPsaArdSEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Telly]

The name for this type of valve is a "Stop and Waste" valve. Most have an arrow of water flow, so it doesn't get installed backward. If installed backward, the "waste" port would be connected to the house side of it's internal valve... so opening the Waste cap when the valve was OFF would spray you with house main pressure, forever

Agree with Samclem, after spinning the valve open (with house water OFF!), loosen/remove the hex packing nut, and backup the valve's body with a big wrench really good while breaking the top of the valve's guts nut free.

You might check hardware/etc. stores for a sweat Stop and Waste valve of the same pipe size, to look into the open pipe ends to see what it looks like inside, and see if you find a brand that looks compatible parts-wise, from what you can see and measure on yours.

I have to say, there is a finite possibility that you will be unable to break the valve's guts nut free, with reasonable force and wrench backup on that body. In other words, know when to stop, wild brute force instead of brains may result in a big mess, having to leave house water off till damage can be repaired.

Agree on the ball or barrel valve instead, if one can be found with the waste port. But simplest is to fix the existing valve, if possible.

 

[Jerry1]

Another solution would be to replace it with a Sharkbite valve, if it is permitted for use by your local authorities. I have used these in several hard to solder places.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBi...VcQtA0_qrXHEP403NPsaArdSEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I wouldn’t ask for permission. That may be a good option. I’m comfortable working with copper, I just don’t trust my soldering. As Samclem noted, there is a union connection nearby so I really don’t think fitting it would be that difficult.

 

[samclem]

I have to say, there is a finite possibility that you will be unable to break the valve's guts nut free, with reasonable force and wrench backup on that body. In other words, know when to stop, wild brute force instead of brains may result in a big mess, having to leave house water off till damage can be repaired.

Oh, and learn from my mistakes. Before starting any plumbing repair that requires shutting off water to the house:

1) Fill at least two 5 gal buckets with water--for flushing toilets. And it's not a bad idea to put aside another gallon or two for drinking/making coffee, etc

2) Assure you've got the parts you need. If in doubt, buy extra stuff you might need and just return it if not needed. In this case--you probably won't know what size and style of washer might be required, so get an assortment pack or two. And consider buying the tool used to dress these valve seats (you might get inside and find the reason it is leaking is a sharp spur on the valve seat that tore up the washer). I think they sell them at HD and Lowes, they come with instructions, and are simple to use (put it in and twist it a few times). Take it back if you wind up not needing it.

3) Assure your plumbing supply place will still be open for a few more hours.
4) Assure it is "normal business hours" for your backup professional plumber option.


All that might sound obvious, but I've been surprised by simple repairs that went awry. Now it hardly surprised me at all!

 

[Jerry1]

These are all good points. My main thought is #3 - make sure I do this during the plumbing supply store normal hours, which is only from 7am to 4pm.

My plan if everything goes south is that I can cap off the valve (put the stem back in) and just shut off the water at the spigots. I’m sure I can get it back together to let water flow even if the valve is wide open I’ll still be fine.

Number 4 is a good option too. Mostly, don’t wait until Friday to work on this. Leave time in the week to only have to pay regular rates.

 

[6miths]

For those of you that are proposing sharkbite fittings or even sweating this yourself, I wouldn't think so. Look at how tight that space is and how close that valve is to the T below it. Wouldn't you have to take that short maybe 6" segment out and add a spacer copper pipe at the bottom into the mainline T then the new valve then a shorter segment to where the union is above the valve? Or take the T below and valve out and replace?

Personally, I would try the penetrating oil, then maybe try to replace the washer (although I don't see that you say that it is leaking, just stuck). Definitely, be careful putting pressure on the handle with anything other than a strong grip given everything around it. Sometimes it is just better to hire a pro for tight and/or messy jobs and this looks like it could be both.

Another option would be if you could get at the line further up and just leave that stuck valve there put in a new lever, globe valve with waste above it.

 

[Jerry1]

The valve is not stuck. I can open it wide with no problem. I can close it with no problem, but it does not completely shut off the water flow. That means that the lines to the spigots fill up with water and could freeze. That would be a problem and if all goes bad, I’ll still hire a plumber rather than take a chance that my pipes could burst. We’d be talking going from a couple hundred dollars to a plumber to possibly thousands.

Also, it’s not quite as cramped as it may look. As mentioned, the union being available makes the repair much more practical. Frankly, I’m a bit intrigued with the sharkbite solution, but of course if I can just throw a washer in there, I could contain my intrigue.

 

[travelover]

I'd definitely have a second wrench on the body of the valve rather than torque against the pipe. Penetrating oil and a little heat might not hurt either as long as you don't over heat the innards.

 

[Jerry1]

I just realized, there’s a sharkbite cap. If all goes wrong, I can just cap it off until summer. It would be no problem to cut that pipe an cap it off. That is now officially plan B.

 

[Jerry1]

I'd definitely have a second wrench on the body of the valve rather than torque against the pipe. Penetrating oil and a little heat might not hurt either as long as you don't over heat the innards.

For sure. Probably won’t resort to heat, but definitely another wrench and some oil if needed.

 

[6miths]

The sharkbite end cap is a great temporary solution if changing the washer doesn't fix it. What is above the union nut above the valve? How much space before the pipe exits the heated space? Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Jerry1]

After the union, it just the pipe that feeds the spigots so if that’s capped off, no impact on other things in the house. I’ll start on it Monday. The plumbing supply store is not open on Sunday.