Terrible North Miami Beach condo collapse

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I read that the prices of those condos ranged from $250k up to >$900k Ouch!. I wonder how this will affect the prices of condos in the general area? Maybe some good deals to be had.
 
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Everything I saw getting built in the 70's and 80's when I lived down there was on pilings that were driven down to the underlying rock... something like 20 feet below the surface. I find the annual sinking discussion strange, unless it was just the dirt around the building going down over time. And that would have nothing to do with the failure.

Sounds to me like the limestone base gave out, sinkhole fashion. Only the pilings that were over the sinkhole were affected, so only part of the building collapsed. But there's nobody to blame in that story, so fewer clicks.
 
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Not quite OT, but I remember a problem with thousands of balconies that were cantilevered in many condos. People would put artificial turf down, and the moisture would be trapped. The rebar would rust and expand, cracking the concrete.
 
I’m wondering how you fix this problem?

If the concrete is failing, how do you repair the entire building? And if the ground underneath gives way, then there’s not much you can do?

I wonder about this with major earthquakes. If you have a large building and the ground under you splits open, the building is bound to collapse? Is that even preventable?

I feel bad for the families involved. I’m sure there’s a lot of people in that area now wondering if their buildings are safe.
 
My heart goes out to the people who have died and are still unaccounted for. I cannot imagine the horror! I used to live in a high-rise condo on the 11th floor (though not in FL). A lot of people living in high-rise condos must be wondering how sound their buildings are.

Has everyone in that condo building been evacuated?
I imagine most people who live in that building want to sell their place and move out, but selling it might be very difficult at this point...
 
My heart goes out to the people who have died and are still unaccounted for. I cannot imagine the horror! I used to live in a high-rise condo on the 11th floor (though not in FL). A lot of people living in high-rise condos must be wondering how sound their buildings are.

Has everyone in that condo building been evacuated?
I imagine most people who live in that building want to sell their place and move out, but selling it might be very difficult at this point...

This building is going to get demolished. It's the only thing to do.
 
This building is going to get demolished. It's the only thing to do.

Good. I hope everyone gets their fair share from their insurance company.
 
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My heart goes out to the people living there. Prayers they are able to find those who are missing.

If they demolish the building, does homeowners insurance pay or will the City/state pay restitution or ?? All the owners need to move somewhere!
So sad and frightening.
 
I read that the prices of those condos ranged from $250k up to >$900k Ouch!. I wonder how this will affect the prices of condos in the general area? Maybe some good deals to be had.
I'd bet the condos on the other, intact side of the building have depreciated.
 
Good. I hope everyone gets their fair share from their insurance company.
For all of the displaced assisted by the Red Cross in regards to the owners, they can file insurance claims, for the renters that is a different story. That part of Collins Ave where it is filled with expensive high rise condos on the beach will be very eerie in that many are still under the buried rubble. I am hoping for some to get rescued from the rubble!
 
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I have some thoughts about the building. First, it's not uncommon for unscrupulous contractors to use sand in their concrete that wasn't washed of all the salt. Concrete with salt in it is going to erode the steel rebar and could take 40 years to weaken it enough to cause this damage. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that I know, from living in Mississippi 40 years ago along the coast, Biloxi, that it wasn't unheard of for contractors to use beach sand.

Also, when I had my current house built, the footing was dug for the entire perimeter. Steel rebar framing was placed in the space before concrete was poured. But before the concrete could be poured, the rebar required an inspector to sign off. However, it had rained the week prior. The footing filled with water an then receded by the time the inspector showed up. He rejected the rebar because it was not 'clean'. I asked what that meant. He told me that it had mud on it and it had rust. Neither were acceptable. He said the rebar must be rust free with no contaminating materials. The contractor had to pull all that rebar and reinstall before the inspector would sign off. I asked the inspector why some muddy water film and some very light surface rust mattered. He told me the concrete would not stick to the rebar and that it was likely to continue to corrode with the moisture inherent with concrete once the oxidation has begun.
I'm not a contractor or engineer, just relating my own experience with concrete and construction.
 
I read that the prices of those condos ranged from $250k up to >$900k Ouch!. I wonder how this will affect the prices of condos in the general area? Maybe some good deals to be had.



This may be too morbid for some, but you can go to Zillow and see pictures of units that have been for sale. Some were sold as recently as this month. Search for 8777 Collins Ave.

It’s the personal items in the pictures that get to me. But then one unit had a view out the front onto Collins Ave and I expect that that unit did not collapse and that the people got out alive.

Nice, spacious condos with beautiful views. Those folks were just living their lives in a great location. So tragic.
 
I have some thoughts about the building. First, it's not uncommon for unscrupulous contractors to use sand in their concrete that wasn't washed of all the salt. Concrete with salt in it is going to erode the steel rebar and could take 40 years to weaken it enough to cause this damage. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that I know, from living in Mississippi 40 years ago along the coast, Biloxi, that it wasn't unheard of for contractors to use beach sand.

Also, when I had my current house built, the footing was dug for the entire perimeter. Steel rebar framing was placed in the space before concrete was poured. But before the concrete could be poured, the rebar required an inspector to sign off. However, it had rained the week prior. The footing filled with water an then receded by the time the inspector showed up. He rejected the rebar because it was not 'clean'. I asked what that meant. He told me that it had mud on it and it had rust. Neither were acceptable. He said the rebar must be rust free with no contaminating materials. The contractor had to pull all that rebar and reinstall before the inspector would sign off. I asked the inspector why some muddy water film and some very light surface rust mattered. He told me the concrete would not stick to the rebar and that it was likely to continue to corrode with the moisture inherent with concrete once the oxidation has begun.
I'm not a contractor or engineer, just relating my own experience with concrete and construction.

My neighbor, and golf partner, is a retired concrete contractor having built a most of The Woodlands, TX roads and bridges in the last 40 years. He said it is common for slimy contractors to "short the mix" of Portland cement to sand and gravel about 1/2 to one bag per mix ratio. This would lead to weakened concrete over the years. Not saying this is a potential for what happened, but it is widely known that some concrete contractors use shady practices unless watched carefully.
 
60 mm = 2.36".... probably not cataclismic in and of itself even if only one side settled that much I would think it would be tilted but not collapse... but it is more likely that different parts of the building all sank similarly to some extent.
 
I have some thoughts about the building. First, it's not uncommon for unscrupulous contractors to use sand in their concrete that wasn't washed of all the salt. Concrete with salt in it is going to erode the steel rebar and could take 40 years to weaken it enough to cause this damage. I'm not saying that's what happened here, just that I know, from living in Mississippi 40 years ago along the coast, Biloxi, that it wasn't unheard of for contractors to use beach sand.

Also, when I had my current house built, the footing was dug for the entire perimeter. Steel rebar framing was placed in the space before concrete was poured. But before the concrete could be poured, the rebar required an inspector to sign off. However, it had rained the week prior. The footing filled with water an then receded by the time the inspector showed up. He rejected the rebar because it was not 'clean'. I asked what that meant. He told me that it had mud on it and it had rust. Neither were acceptable. He said the rebar must be rust free with no contaminating materials. The contractor had to pull all that rebar and reinstall before the inspector would sign off. I asked the inspector why some muddy water film and some very light surface rust mattered. He told me the concrete would not stick to the rebar and that it was likely to continue to corrode with the moisture inherent with concrete once the oxidation has begun.
I'm not a contractor or engineer, just relating my own experience with concrete and construction.
The condo was built in the heyday of the Miami construction boom of the 1970s and 80s. Money from successful business people helped fuel the construction boom at that time. Whether or not buildings were inspected to code is another question. This area on Collins Ave is a beautiful part of North Miami Beach very close to Bal Harbour.
 
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There's some interesting info here https://www.wptv.com/news/state/miami-dade/surfside-building-collapse-how-did-this-happen

"he said the biggest thing that has changed over the last 40 years has been as a result of Hurricane Andrew devastating southern Miami-Dade County in 1992.
He said those code changes are more related to the building envelope, the separator between the conditioned and unconditioned environment, than the actual structure...
He didn't believe any of those code changes would have an impact on the collapse of a building like the Surfside condo"

Apparently, the building that partially collapsed was one of three Champlain Towers buildings all built around the same time. Would not want to own a condo in any of those or in fact any similar building on that coast and of a similar age. Apparently, the condo association is already being sued. I wouldn't want to be on a condo board anywhere in the vicinity.
 
My building was completed in 1969 and is concrete. Before we purchased the HOA painted the building with house paint, they were thrilled because it was so cheap and could be sprayed on. The result was that after a couple of years the concrete started spalling, exposing steel rebar. I was Board President at that time. We needed to have the building properly repaired at significant expense, we are still paying off the loan. The long-time residents belly-ached no end, I told them that if it was not properly fixed there would be no place for the elevators to go to.

Odds are this building facade was not properly maintained and as a result sea air rusted rebar.

My husband also said that the new roofing material may not have been properly disbursed causing a concentrated load.

It may be both.
 
60 mm = 2.36".... probably not cataclismic in and of itself even if only one side settled that much I would think it would be tilted but not collapse... but it is more likely that different parts of the building all sank similarly to some extent.


The Leaning Tower of Pisa comes to mind. It was built in 1173 or so and it is still standing.
 
The Leaning Tower of Pisa comes to mind. It was built in 1173 or so and it is still standing.

Yes, but!

Leaning Tower does not have extensive horizontal square foot area of multiple floors, all of which area depending perhaps on stressed "horizontal" support beams and engineered structures.

And how far is the Leaning Tower from the salty coast air?
 
Now there are suggestions, probably in hopes of averting responsibility, that one or more residents may have initiated unpermitted renovations, which damaged support columns and caused the structure to collapse.

Since those people are probably pancaked, and "unpermitted" means "no records," it would be quite difficult to find out.
 
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